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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoughNTumble View Post
    This is a theme that has been running throughout this arc and the crossover books and it has struck me as being very odd the entire time.

    In this week's teen titans, tim realizes that joker wants batman's sidekicks gone.

    "We weaken batman. Weaken his effectiveness. Killing us will make batman stronger, which will make the game better for joker. Hate to admit it, but he's right."

    Why is he right, tim? Weren't you seeking out batman because he needed a robin?

    The entire time this event has been going on I'd assumed that the 'batman's sidekicks make him weaker' idea was from the perspective of the joker. To joker, mental illness is strength, so a more unstable batman without a family is a stronger batman.

    Though now with tim 'admitting he's right,' it's coming across as more of a meta-textual 'batman's sidekicks are lame and for kids' story.

    What do you guys think?
    It's because editorial or Lobdell doesn't get it. Simple as that.

    "Oh, Snyder said something semi-intellectual about Batman? Must be true. Let's make every character admit it."

    Instead of, you know, realizing that's the Joker's take and, like you said, Tim would never feel the same way.

    It's funny how much better of a job Batman Incorporated is doing with exploring the theme (and Morrison has been working with it since RIP). It's not about making him less effective. It's about giving him new priorities. Snyder gets that. The "family" is a distraction. It gives him a humanity that he otherwise wouldn't have. It gives him something to love over Gotham itself. But Snyder would never have a character say, "Killing us will make Batman stronger" because that's not true at all. Killing the family, at this point, would drive Batman crazy. Hell, realistically Bruce would probably just kill himself. Or at the very least retire. Killing the family would effectively be killing Batman.

    This is the main problem with these cross-title events. Most of the ancillary writers misinterpret the entire point.

  2. #62
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    No, Tim is right.

    Batman was born out of loss. Losing his parents created the perfect soldier that he is now. He's designed to overcome it. Any time Bruce loses someone, he adapts to become stronger and moves on.

    Tim didn't become Robin to make a stronger Batman, he did it because he thought Batman needed a friend. He wasn't worried about how tough Batman could become. That was Tim telling the Joker that he's right in his assessment, but it doesn't make it right to push Batman in that direction.

  3. #63
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    Batman was born out of loss, but there was nothing he could have done to save his parents. He was a child. He was not responsible.

    Compare that to the guilt he felt over Jason's death, where he was responsible. Where he was the parent.

    Then ask any parent who's lost a child whether it was harder losing their parents or that child. I'm sure you know what the answer would be.

    Now multiply that loss by at least six.

    I know you're talking about mythic Batman, not Batman as a human being, and by the demands of the medium itself he'll keep going, but the characters shouldn't be so meta-cognizant. Tim should understand that, for Bruce, the death of the entire Bat-Family would be something extremely--if not definitively--detrimental to the "Batman." It doesn't strike me as at all in-character for any of the family members to be like, "Oh yeah, the Joker's right. Bruce would be a better Batman without us. We make him weaker." That's ludicrous. We're supposed to believe this one assault is enough to make Tim come to the conclusion that's basically equivalent to, "Oh shit, maybe I should quit"?

    I don't buy it.

  4. #64
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    It's simply because Batman adapts. Whether its pain or inspiration. Losing his family would make him an unstoppable entity. It wouldn't corrupt him, but drive him further. That's what his character is about.

    Killing Flash's sidekick might drive him in the wrong direction. You don't want that of a lesser man. You'd ruin most other heroes by killing their family, but not Batman. You would just evolve him into something stronger. Look at what happened when Prometheus did this to Green Arrow in Cry for Justice. The poor dope and his family fell apart and they ended up killing a bunch of people. Batman would not react this way.

    That's what the Joker wants to see. He doesn't want to ruin his Batman, just push him further along. It's similar to what Zoom was doing in Wally West's Flash run.

    And its more of Snyder borrowing ideas from other writers. Morrison has been building on those notions for awhile now.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Personally I dont think losing the family would make him unstoppable, I think it would make him reckless, as we saw during a lonely place of dying. Since he wasn't responsible for anyone he didn't have any sense of self preservation, which resulted in him getting more injuries then he would otherwise.

    And without the family (specifically alfred), who would help Bats when he genuinely needs help?

    Now for Joker, this would be good. Joker doesn't like calm and collected Batman, he likes super pissed I AM THE NIGHT batman. THe only way I can stomach Tim's lines in TT is if Tim is saying that from the joker's point of view, he'd be a "better" batman.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post
    It's simply because Batman adapts. Whether its pain or inspiration. Losing his family would make him an unstoppable entity. It wouldn't corrupt him, but drive him further. That's what his character is about.

    Killing Flash's sidekick might drive him in the wrong direction. You don't want that of a lesser man. You'd ruin most other heroes by killing their family, but not Batman. You would just evolve him into something stronger. Look at what happened when Prometheus did this to Green Arrow in Cry for Justice. The poor dope and his family fell apart and they ended up killing a bunch of people. Batman would not react this way.

    That's what the Joker wants to see. He doesn't want to ruin his Batman, just push him further along. It's similar to what Zoom was doing in Wally West's Flash run.

    And its more of Snyder borrowing ideas from other writers. Morrison has been building on those notions for awhile now.
    Again, I get what you're saying. It's about him being Bat-God, the optimum man, capable of adapting to any situation. But the reason it works for Morrison is that he never distinguishes between the character and the mythology. Bruce adapts because he's stuck in an endless narrative that constantly forces him to adapt. It's less Bruce vs "specific enemy" and more Batman vs Serial Narrative. It's truly meta (man that makes me sound like a tool, but it's the truth).

    The problem with DotF is that it's not a meta-narrative at all. It's a very literal approach to Batman, as a man. And his supporting characters as people, not ideas. So when Tim says what you're saying (and what Morrison's run has argued throughout), it's as if we're supposed to accept that this character in this story is aware of his own placement within a story. It's the absence of fear/worry/doubt that only a meta-perspective should permit. "It's okay if I get killed off because I'm just one supporting character and the mythology is so much bigger than me." Or "Batman will be better off with us dead because then he'll be forced to adapt. Because he's Batman and Batman will never end, so he'll always be forced to adapt. Maybe a Batman without 'family' is a stronger interpretation." Whereas if you're a real kid doing what you're doing because you believe you make a difference, why would you suddenly go, "Oh wait, maybe it'd be better if I was dead" and not worry at all that the human in Batman could deal with the psychological fallout of having his entire crime-fighting family (for which he has always taken complete responsibility) die. "It's okay because he's Batman not the Flash" is hardly where Tim's mind should be (even if it's exactly where ours, and the writers', should).

    I agree with you from a mythic (or meta-narrative) standpoint, but not from an in-story (or narrative) one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    Personally I dont think losing the family would make him unstoppable, I think it would make him reckless, as we saw during a lonely place of dying. Since he wasn't responsible for anyone he didn't have any sense of self preservation, which resulted in him getting more injuries then he would otherwise.

    And without the family (specifically alfred), who would help Bats when he genuinely needs help?
    That's another great point. If the Joker has always known who the family members are, then he should know that Alfred has always been part of the Batman. He should know that he's never dealt with a Batman minus Alfred. He should know that Batman is dependent on Alfred in too many ways to go without. So the whole thing starts to fall apart, unless The Joker has no plans to hurt Alfred. But then what about Dick? 90% of Batman and the Joker's history has happened since Bruce adopted Dick.

    There's no reason for the Joker to think a Batman totally on his own would be more fun/more effective.

    Now for Joker, this would be good. Joker doesn't like calm and collected Batman, he likes super pissed I AM THE NIGHT batman. THe only way I can stomach Tim's lines in TT is if Tim is saying that from the joker's point of view, he'd be a "better" batman.
    Even then... I don't see why the Joker would think killing all of Batman's allies would make him better. He has nothing to base that on.
    Last edited by Quinnhop; 01-04-2013 at 12:12 PM.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnhop View Post
    That's another great point. If the Joker has always known who the family members are, then he should know that Alfred has always been part of the Batman. He should know that he's never dealt with a Batman minus Alfred. He should know that Batman is dependent on Alfred in too many ways to go without. So the whole thing starts to fall apart, unless The Joker has no plans to hurt Alfred. But then what about Dick? 90% of Batman and the Joker's history has happened since Bruce adopted Dick.
    Yeah, Alfred in particular is someone who Batman (and by extension Joker) physically needs, if only so he can get patched up for their next go around.

    Even then... I don't see why the Joker would think killing all of Batman's allies would make him better. He has nothing to base that on.
    It depends on what Joker means by "better". More effective? No. More driven / less stable? Possibly. In this context, what are his conditions for "winning" the game? Is it getting away with whatever he's doing or is it driving Batman crazy until he's just like Joker?

    But that still falls apart because of Morrison's first truth. Joker doesn't know what solo batman is like because he's never been solo.

  8. #68
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    Of course Joker wants Batman to be as crazy as him. That's how it was in books like Dark Knight Returns and Arkham Asylum.

  9. #69
    I caught you red-handed Wild_Child's Avatar
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    Joker thinks Batman allies make him weaker because he has a lot of allies helping him and he doesn't have to push himself as hard because of it.Let's say you have to run mcdonalds all by yourself and it would be extremely hard.With allies, running the place would be easier.Batman doesn't have to push himself as much and this is why The Joker thinks his allies make him weak.
    Last edited by Wild_Child; 01-04-2013 at 12:41 PM.

  10. #70
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    It depends on what Joker means by "better". More effective? No. More driven / less stable? Possibly. In this context, what are his conditions for "winning" the game? Is it getting away with whatever he's doing or is it driving Batman crazy until he's just like Joker?
    Or is it that he wants Batman to cross the line that we know Batman would never cross?

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip Whirlwind View Post
    But that still falls apart because of Morrison's first truth. Joker doesn't know what solo batman is like because he's never been solo.
    While that may have been true in pre-reboot days in this new continuity Batman himself has said that he has had encounters with the Joker before Dick Grayson became Robin. He's mentioned several in the main Batman title recently including the one that resulted in a Joker card being found inside the Batcave. Joker would also be aware of how Batman reacted to the death of one of his Robins. He still became more focused and violent and I think it's this more focused and violent Batman that Joker is hoping to release by his actions.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild_Child View Post
    Joker thinks Batman allies make him weaker because he has a lot of allies helping him and he doesn't have to push himself as hard because of it.Let's say you have to run mcdonalds all by yourself and it would be extremely hard.With allies, running the place would be easier.Batman doesn't have to push himself as much and this is why The Joker thinks his allies make him weak.
    Yeah and that McDonald's would be shut down in a week.

  12. #72
    Veteran Member Lancerman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonTodd428 View Post
    Or is it that he wants Batman to cross the line that we know Batman would never cross?



    While that may have been true in pre-reboot days in this new continuity Batman himself has said that he has had encounters with the Joker before Dick Grayson became Robin. He's mentioned several in the main Batman title recently including the one that resulted in a Joker card being found inside the Batcave. Joker would also be aware of how Batman reacted to the death of one of his Robins. He still became more focused and violent and I think it's this more focused and violent Batman that Joker is hoping to release by his actions.
    The first truth thing still holds up because he still always had Alfred and Gordon. He was never operating completely solo.

  13. #73
    Dark Knight Detective DarkKnghtJared's Avatar
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    I think a lot of you guys are misreading this. The key-phrase here is that killing them will "make the GAME better for Joker." When Tim says that Joker's right, it isn't what Tim believes, it's that what Joker wants and believes makes sense for Joker. He can't be tricked or played out of the situation. Hell, this is sort-of what Tim's going through right now--part of him is uncomfortable with the fact that he inadvertently created this team of peers, but he's realized that he needs friends like Bunker and the like around him to keep himself balanced.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnhop View Post
    Again, I get what you're saying. It's about him being Bat-God, the optimum man, capable of adapting to any situation. But the reason it works for Morrison is that he never distinguishes between the character and the mythology. Bruce adapts because he's stuck in an endless narrative that constantly forces him to adapt. It's less Bruce vs "specific enemy" and more Batman vs Serial Narrative. It's truly meta (man that makes me sound like a tool, but it's the truth).

    The problem with DotF is that it's not a meta-narrative at all. It's a very literal approach to Batman, as a man. And his supporting characters as people, not ideas. So when Tim says what you're saying (and what Morrison's run has argued throughout), it's as if we're supposed to accept that this character in this story is aware of his own placement within a story. It's the absence of fear/worry/doubt that only a meta-perspective should permit. "It's okay if I get killed off because I'm just one supporting character and the mythology is so much bigger than me." Or "Batman will be better off with us dead because then he'll be forced to adapt. Because he's Batman and Batman will never end, so he'll always be forced to adapt. Maybe a Batman without 'family' is a stronger interpretation." Whereas if you're a real kid doing what you're doing because you believe you make a difference, why would you suddenly go, "Oh wait, maybe it'd be better if I was dead" and not worry at all that the human in Batman could deal with the psychological fallout of having his entire crime-fighting family (for which he has always taken complete responsibility) die. "It's okay because he's Batman not the Flash" is hardly where Tim's mind should be (even if it's exactly where ours, and the writers', should).

    I agree with you from a mythic (or meta-narrative) standpoint, but not from an in-story (or narrative) one.



    That's another great point. If the Joker has always known who the family members are, then he should know that Alfred has always been part of the Batman. He should know that he's never dealt with a Batman minus Alfred. He should know that Batman is dependent on Alfred in too many ways to go without. So the whole thing starts to fall apart, unless The Joker has no plans to hurt Alfred. But then what about Dick? 90% of Batman and the Joker's history has happened since Bruce adopted Dick.

    There's no reason for the Joker to think a Batman totally on his own would be more fun/more effective.



    Even then... I don't see why the Joker would think killing all of Batman's allies would make him better. He has nothing to base that on.
    But the meta approach is how I view everything. I don't see any story as self-contained because the character mytho never ends there. It's that reason alone that I dislike graphic novels and self-contained one-shots. Im just that way.

    Essentially, killing the family makes a better Batman, but a worse Bruce Wayne.

  15. #75
    All Caste Warrior JasonTodd428's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lancerman View Post
    The first truth thing still holds up because he still always had Alfred and Gordon. He was never operating completely solo.
    Out in the field he is completely alone though. Until Dick Grayson took up the mantle of Robin, Batman never had someone working out in the field with him. Alfred was working with him from the safety of the Batcave and Gordon, who does work closer to the front lines then Alfred, doesn't function in the same why that Robin does with Batman. I think solo here means Batman working alone without a protege by his side not that he is actually working without some support from a distance.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkKnghtJared View Post
    I think a lot of you guys are misreading this. The key-phrase here is that killing them will "make the GAME better for Joker." When Tim says that Joker's right, it isn't what Tim believes, it's that what Joker wants and believes makes sense for Joker. He can't be tricked or played out of the situation. Hell, this is sort-of what Tim's going through right now--part of him is uncomfortable with the fact that he inadvertently created this team of peers, but he's realized that he needs friends like Bunker and the like around him to keep himself balanced.
    That's what I was trying to get at but you said it much better than I did.
    Last edited by JasonTodd428; 01-04-2013 at 01:30 PM.
    Characters come and go, revamped and revisited. But as long as you enjoyed them, remember them and continue to appreciate them, then that character, your hero or heroine, will always exist.

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