The 'Batman's sidekicks make him weaker' theme of DoTF

[stk]

"We weaken batman. Weaken his effectiveness. Killing us will make batman stronger, which will make the game better for joker. Hate to admit it, but he's right."

What do you guys think?

I think it is moronic beyond words and am glad I dropped all Bat-titles for the duration of the crossover. I read the first issue of each (2 issues in the case of Batman) and could tell I wasn't going to be entertained. I'll come back and try the books again once it's over. In the meantime, I still have the out of continuity digital-first Bat-comics to enjoy.

[Mr. Holmes]

I think it is moronic beyond words and am glad I dropped all Bat-titles for the duration of the crossover. I read the first issue of each (2 issues in the case of Batman) and could tell I wasn't going to be entertained. I'll come back and try the books again once it's over. In the meantime, I still have the out of continuity digital-first Bat-comics to enjoy.

I dropped Batman after #13, but I was hoping it wouldn't ruin the other books I was reading the way it has now.

[Whip Whirlwind]

Which one, Tim Drake or "Tim Drake" (real name unknown)? All of the characters are only a year old. They have the same names and some of them are pretty similar to their pre-reboot analogues, but they're all new. I know not everyone agrees, but to me everyone's "favorite characters" got reset with the DC universe. Maybe some of the new characters will remain favorites, but we can't just assume that. When nu Stephanie Brown gets reintroduced, I might hate her. In which case I won't feel obligated to keep reading, because hey - new character. The old Stephanie Brown is dead, along with the old Barbara Gordon and the old Tim Drake and the old Jim Gordon and...

-D

Yeah, I guess they're just different characters, and I just don't like this one.

But its still jarring to hear any version of "tim drake" agree that Robin makes Batman weaker.

[The Duke]

I've been trying to keep positive, but more and more I'm feeling disconnected from this character who is supposedly my favorite character in all of DC comics.

I've felt like this for a while, I honestly thought I was over Batman or comics in general. So as a test I went back to read a Batman comic written by Gerry Conway and drawn by Don Newton from 1983. It was like being able to see clearly again after months of near blindness.

In my opinion, this stuff we're being given just isn't good enough.

[Seattle Freeze]

I've been enjoying the crossovers. I think this crossover is far better than the Night of Owls Crossover with the other titles actually contributing to the main story.


I understand Joker's premise and think he is correct from his sick perspective. Part of the role of Robin is to keep Batman grounded and to help him maintain his moral principles. All in the Bat family have been trained to follow bruce's principles and belive in them so if he starts dancing around the line, they help pull him pack. Without them, he maybe would become more violent and enter the realm of being an anti-hero. I think that is what angers Joker, no matter how viiolent and grotesque Joker gets, Batman does not follow him down that demented path but sticks to his orginal principles. To that extent, Joker is just doing the same thing he always does, obsess over Batman and try to get him to kill.

[Evxn]

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, especially as it's the exact opposite of the message we're getting in Batman Inc.

That's what I find the most absurd. Why is the conclusion to Inc arriving approximately at the same time as DoTF? They contradict each other, and it just seems rather silly that Joker has taken control of the Bat family all while Talia and Bruce are at war with one another...

[The_Livewire]

I understand Joker's premise and think he is correct from his sick perspective. Part of the role of Robin is to keep Batman grounded and to help him maintain his moral principles. All in the Bat family have been trained to follow bruce's principles and belive in them so if he starts dancing around the line, they help pull him pack.

snipped the rest.

All this I agree with, but to have Tim (or any of 'em) say it, is wrong.

[Don Yoyo]

"We weaken batman. Weaken his effectiveness. Killing us will make batman stronger, which will make the game better for joker. Hate to admit it, but he's right."

Why is he right, tim? Weren't you seeking out batman because he needed a robin?

I think Tim agrees with the end of the reasoning, that in the end the game will become better for the Joker. If Batman's entire family is killed, he would have nothing left to ground him, would become isolated, even more obsessed. He would sharpen his body and mind even more in order to make up for the absence of his allies. Batman would become stronger and smarter, and that will make the Joker happy.

But will it make the Batman more efficient and Gotham's streets safer? No. But the Joker doesn't care about that, because their own battles would become so much better!

Basically, the Joker is the DC editors from the War Games times who thought that they had to get rid of Oracle because she made Batman's detective skills look bad.

Why is the conclusion to Inc arriving approximately at the same time as DoTF? They contradict each other, and it just seems rather silly that Joker has taken control of the Bat family all while Talia and Bruce are at war with one another...

That's why some people keep saying that Inc. isn't in continuity.

[Choppa]

I've been enjoying the crossovers. I think this crossover is far better than the Night of Owls Crossover with the other titles actually contributing to the main story.


I understand Joker's premise and think he is correct from his sick perspective. Part of the role of Robin is to keep Batman grounded and to help him maintain his moral principles. All in the Bat family have been trained to follow bruce's principles and belive in them so if he starts dancing around the line, they help pull him pack. Without them, he maybe would become more violent and enter the realm of being an anti-hero. I think that is what angers Joker, no matter how viiolent and grotesque Joker gets, Batman does not follow him down that demented path but sticks to his orginal principles. To that extent, Joker is just doing the same thing he always does, obsess over Batman and try to get him to kill.

That's pretty much how I took it. The Joker really means that with sidekicks he's less willing to go to extremes with the Joker and/or cross the line between them. If you look at Batman's reaction whenever an ally is hurt, he always loses control and sometimes resorts to murder. A few examples would be Dick's "death" in Infinite Crisis causing Bruce to pull a gun on his "killer", Bruce almost killing the Joker in HUSH when he thought Tommy had been shot, and also in NML when the Joker killed Gordon's wife.

[The_Livewire]

That's pretty much how I took it. The Joker really means that with sidekicks he's less willing to go to extremes with the Joker and/or cross the line between them. If you look at Batman's reaction whenever an ally is hurt, he always loses control and sometimes resorts to murder. A few examples would be Dick's "death" in Infinite Crisis causing Bruce to pull a gun on his "killer", Bruce almost killing the Joker in HUSH when he thought Tommy had been shot, and also in NML when the Joker killed Gordon's wife.

Not sure I like that. IT basically turns the Joker into an elaborate 'suicide by cop' character. He just wants the cop to be Batman.

Which, if they were going to kill him 'for good' having Deathstroke, or the Red Hood, or some nameless mook kill him would be he 'ultimate' defeat. Kind of like in Joker's Favor.

[Buried Alien]

I went through Dick's estrangement drama with Bruce during the 1980s and early 1990s, and ever since they reconciled in the aftermath of PRODIGAL, I've steered clear of BATMAN storylines in which one of the hooks (or even THE hook) is driving a wedge between Batman and his closest associates.

I enjoyed the hook the first time, but doing it again and again is a). boringly redundant and b). depicts Batman as a fool who doesn't learn from his failures.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Whip Whirlwind]

I went through Dick's estrangement drama with Bruce during the 1980s and early 1990s, and ever since they reconciled in the aftermath of PRODIGAL, I've steered clear of BATMAN storylines in which one of the hooks (or even THE hook) is driving a wedge between Batman and his closest associates.

I enjoyed the hook the first time, but doing it again and again is a). boringly redundant and b). depicts Batman as a fool who doesn't learn from his failures.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

I'm kind of in the same boat, although I give it a shot on the off chance that the execution wins me over despite the concept.

In this case, it hasn't.

However, i probably would have given it more of a chance if wasn't following a fantastic half decade long run that ended with the first truth of batman being that he was never alone.

I get what Snyder is going for, but in order for it to work the threat that makes him doubt his allies has to be greater than Darkseid, the threat that made him acknowledge those allies.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: it's almost like they're trying to ensure I'll never again buy a Batman (or Superman, for that matter)-related monthly that's not by that Mangy Scots Git.

[DrSimonHurt]

The real theme of the story is that Joker is using that as misdirection. He just wants to use the uncertainty of whether or not he knows their identities as a tool to drive them all off course.

He knows. He chooses not to know. He doesn't care to know, but wants them to guess whether or now he knows. It's a game. Whether he really does know or not is actually not relevant in the Joker's eyes. If he wants to believe he knows, then he does. But for this specific story, he has to let them believe whether he does or not. He doesn't have a personal opinion towards that himself.

If you were to place a normal functioning human in Joker's place and question if he knows, then yes. Just like Jim Gordon knows. And Lucius Fox knows.

[sunofdarkchild]

I'm kind of in the same boat, although I give it a shot on the off chance that the execution wins me over despite the concept.

In this case, it hasn't.

However, i probably would have given it more of a chance if wasn't following a fantastic half decade long run that ended with the first truth of batman being that he was never alone.

I get what Snyder is going for, but in order for it to work the threat that makes him doubt his allies has to be greater than Darkseid, the threat that made him acknowledge those allies.

Actually, in theory the strength of the family just before the reboot could have made then the perfect time for this sort of a story. Although I'd make it more along the lines of the family leaving rather than the family 'weakening' Batman. Imagine what it would do to Batman to lose them after he has found out how much he really needs them. I think it could work a lot better than the family splitting up after War Games did.

But this totally feels like a regression to the 2001-2005 Batman that brought us Officer Down, Bruce Wayne Murderer, and War Games, and it does it without even having Batman on panel.