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  1. #61
    Literate Sasquatch Cryptid's Avatar
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    I share with the reviewer's lack of enthusiasm but not his arguments. The recap page establishes Black Panther as the voice of conscience in the Illuminati, so it makes sense that the story would begin with a crisis that leads him back to the others despite his misgivings. And Hickman wouldn't be Hickman if the villains weren't part of a mysterious world-hopping cabal whose members dispense gnomic pronouncements between energy blasts. All that just seems like a given.

    So, the issue works in broad strokes, but the page-by-page plotting and storytelling is all over the place, with frequent violations of the Aristotelian maxim that probable impossibilities are preferable to improbable possibilities. In other words, it's business as usual when a dimension-gate (or something) opens in the middle of the jungle, but problematic when it opens right next to a superhero and (if that weren't enough) a rhinoceros charges at the perfect moment to catch his attention. Likewise, there is nothing to complain about when a laser-toting sniper from another world picks off a supporting character, but problematic that the attacker never fires a second shot while T'Challa kneels over his dying protege. Is there suddenly a tree in the way? Does our hero trust his enemies to hold their fire for the duration of the touching death scene?

    These flaws in the story's internal logic are distracting but not fatal. I can accept a coincidence or two for the sake of compression when the alternative is a page of exposition about how Black Panther's sensors picked up an anomaly near the training grounds for Wakandan Junior Astronauts, or whatever. But then virtually every moment in the issue's main action sequence involves some kind of technology or ritual that we have to trust will make more sense later. The red-filtered dimension bubble, or "incursion wall," remains an unknown with convenient rules. Are we still on our earth? Oops, teleportation sucks in here. Also, I'm not sure why the world-killing bomb thing blows up the planet in the sky instead of the one that it's on (but whatever), whether the last-minute punch by T'Challa actually changed anything, or why Black Swan had to kill White Manifold. These small questions make the stakes of the battle murky, notwithstanding our now instinctive knowledge that any unknown device spewing Kirby-dots should be turned off after its owner is punched in the head.

    I loved the bit where the villains role their eyes at the prospect of an Earth where English is the primary international language. It's neat that Black Panther fights Black Swan (although I fear that she will become Ultimate Natalie Portman in comment threads). But the good bits are buried under distractions.

  2. #62
    Actually likes comics Darth Tigris's Avatar
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    Was I the only one that heard the theme from The Avengers when you turned the page and saw the book's title? I don't know if that was intentional or not, but it was quite awesome.



    And it also helped me to keep a perspective on what this issue was: the opening scene before the title in a movie. For the record, I didn't read the reviews (stopped reading comic reviews several years back) so I don't know the complaints, but as a fan of Hickman, Avengers, the Illuminati and Black Panther, this issue gave me a lot to love in a first issue.

    I'm just thinking about getting this and Avengers every other week and ......
    Last edited by Darth Tigris; 01-03-2013 at 08:07 AM.
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  3. #63
    Actually likes comics Darth Tigris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darthwenger View Post
    Exactly how I feel. When I first heard of the line-up I was excited but have now come to realise that it is a Illuminati title which I was never interested in initially anyway. They have just tagged the New Avengers logo onto it to bring in Avengers fans. Also considering Namor, Doctor Strange, Beast, Black Panther, Mr Fantastic, Iron man are all Avengers/previous Avengers - there is not much 'New' to New Avengers. I'm pretty sure they could have come up with a better title than re-hashing the NA team name - its misleading in my opinion. Even the 'Secret Avengers' would have been a better title name.

    I don't really understand where this title is going - for example: is Black Bolt now a card carrying Avenger? will they be a functioning active team or a team that doesn't actually get its hands physically dirty but just works in the background?

    I think you'd save yourself a lot of trouble if you just focused on the content of the book instead of the title on the front. And, as anybody that's read Hickman's work will know, the first issue (if not the whole first 10 issues) will be set up. Elegant and entertaining still, but set up nonetheless.
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  4. #64

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    A solid first issue that assumes most dont know the history of the Black Panther character...which is true.

    This will be a fascinating exercise in fan sensibilities. For the longest Ive heard how most say they arent interested in minority characters because they arent well written. Well now we will get to see if that is true. because if a minority themed book is rejected not because of quality of art or story then there are other forces at work.


    I SAY THIS--Not as a RACE CARD ISSUE--but because the main complaint is that Black Panther is central to the book.

    I hope that isnt the case. that being said I thought it was a solid first issue..and Ive read Avengers books back to the 1970's. this is hardly a 2.5 comic. but Black Panther gets Olympic voting every-time hes in a book -2 points from the Russian Judge because he is an American.
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  5. #65
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Tigris View Post
    Was I the only one that heard the theme from The Avengers when you turned the page and saw the book's title? I don't know if that was intentional or not, but it was quite awesome.
    That's exactly how I felt! Hence the yelling and jumping and fist pumping. LOL! Thanks for posting that video.

  6. #66
    Disciple of En Sabah Nur Harbinger of Apocalypse's Avatar
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    I really loved this issue so disagree with the review personally. The story is quite compelling in seeing that the one person who didn't sign onboard the Illuminati bandwagon is forced to convene them in order to face a dangerous threat. To say this is a Black Panther book in disguise is like saying Avengers is a Captain America/Iron Man book in disguise since they feature in the beginning and talk about assembling the team. Sure, I guess the New Avengers title is somewhat misleading as you go in expecting Avengers but I would find it boring to see just another Avengers team operating. We have guys like the Uncanny Avengers or Secret Avengers operating. But New Avengers deals with something entirely different namely the Illuminati. Thats new and unique which is good.

    Plus, I found the scenes with Black Panther quite powerful. He goes there, sees these young Wakandans and encourages them to be the new generation of explorers and sees them shot down. They had everything to look forward to and it just ended. That envoked some strong emotions I think and it was awesome that T'Challa has to deal with Namor especially after what the Submariner has done.

    Lastly, its good to see Black Panther in the spotlight and a black person taking certain stage. Especially someone like T'Challa who I have really grown fond of... might be the Avengers cartoon where he was just awesome.
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  7. #67
    Senior Member rsreed13's Avatar
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    I really dug this comic. Black Panther and Beast are my two favorite Marvel superheroes (something about cats), and Hickman is one of my favorite writers. I found this first issue to be incredibly intense. We get a sense of the madness that's about to go down, but not all the details, which is great. I loved Hickman's use of Sumerian.

    In regards to the use of English by the Wakandans, I imagine English was introduced as a secondary language simply because most outsiders would not understand Wakandan. Kimo and T'Challa both seem to know Akkadian (and T'Challa knows High Sumerian), which suggests that lots of languages are taught by the Wakandan schools.

    One thing I would've liked to see is the AR function used to give more details about the history referenced. When T'Challa references "The Wall" it would've been cool to see a little feature detailing a few of his accomplishments. Same with anything Namor, Strange, or Black Bolt have in their histories.

    EDIT: Going along with the history thing...
    So, N'Kono, T'Dori, and Kimo are all siblings. Their father's grandfather (so their great-grandfather) was T'Kono, aka "The Wall" who was the Black Panther of his time.

    So, in all likelihood (barring any S'Yan-like situations) T'Kono would be Azzuri's father, and T'Challa's great grandfather as well. Which makes T'Challa and the three kids second cousins.
    Last edited by rsreed13; 01-03-2013 at 11:34 AM.

  8. #68
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsreed13 View Post
    In regards to the use of English by the Wakandans, I imagine English was introduced as a secondary language simply because most outsiders would not understand Wakandan. Kimo and T'Challa both seem to know Akkadian (and T'Challa knows High Sumerian), which suggests that lots of languages are taught by the Wakandan schools.
    That wasn't really the point of the English question. No one was saying the Makers wouldn't know English. It's common for many countries, outside of the US, to have some familiarity with a second language, especially English. Most colleges and universities teach a plethora of languages, and I wouldn't think it was any different in Wakanda.

    However, it's a huge jump in logic, to take the education of TWO people and apply them to the entire school system. Kimo appears to know the sound, not the meaning of Akkadian. T'challa is arguably the smartest guy in Wakanda, and the ruler. His education and interests aren't going to be the same as everyone else in Wakanda.


    Quote Originally Posted by rsreed13 View Post
    One thing I would've liked to see is the AR function used to give more details about the history referenced. When T'Challa references "The Wall" it would've been cool to see a little feature detailing a few of his accomplishments. Same with anything Namor, Strange, or Black Bolt have in their histories.
    That's all extra work in creation. Unless they have it in a handbook, I doubt they'll do it. Plus, they don't seem overly concerned with the history of these characters.

    Quote Originally Posted by rsreed13 View Post
    EDIT: Going along with the history thing...
    So, N'Kono, T'Dori, and Kimo are all siblings. Their father's grandfather (so their great-grandfather) was T'Kono, aka "The Wall" who was the Black Panther of his time.

    So, in all likelihood (barring any S'Yan-like situations) T'Kono would be Azzuri's father, and T'Challa's great grandfather as well. Which makes T'Challa and the three kids second cousins.
    Hickman said the three weren't related on formspring. Only N'Knono is related to BP.

  9. #69
    Senior Member rsreed13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    That wasn't really the point of the English question. No one was saying the Makers wouldn't know English. It's common for many countries, outside of the US, to have some familiarity with a second language, especially English. Most colleges and universities teach a plethora of languages, and I wouldn't think it was any different in Wakanda.

    However, it's a huge jump in logic, to take the education of TWO people and apply them to the entire school system. Kimo appears to know the sound, not the meaning of Akkadian. T'challa is arguably the smartest guy in Wakanda, and the ruler. His education and interests aren't going to be the same as everyone else in Wakanda.
    I thought the point of the English question was why they would be speaking it? In theory they'd speak English to Black Swan because they'd assume she wouldn't know Wakandan. That's what I meant. Sorry, I wasn't very clear with this post. At all.

    It was. I'm a little tired and I wrote this very quickly. I just meant that if T'Dori could recognize Akkadian, it implies that linguistics is somewhat emphasized within Wakanda, at least (and I left this out in my initial post) within the upper class. As someone who lives in the Midwestern United States, where the only languages spoken by the populace at large are English and Spanish, I find this interesting. Obviously, there are a lot of countries where speaking three or four languages is commonplace, but I'm not in one of them, so I'm a bit envious of those who have the skillset.


    That's all extra work in creation. Unless they have it in a handbook, I doubt they'll do it. Plus, they don't seem overly concerned with the history of these characters.
    I realize it's unlikely, I just think it would be awesome for little one or two sentence tidbits along with a sketch or two (or a panel from a prior comic if one exists of the subject) would be much more rewarding than what the AR function has been used for thus far. Since this series features characters with a lot of varied history and objects of interest (BP, Namor, BB, and Strange for sure).

    Hickman said the three weren't related on formspring. Only N'Knono is related to BP.
    Just saw that. When N'Kono referred to Kimo and T'Dori as his brother and sister, I took him more literal than I should have.

  10. #70
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsreed13 View Post
    It was. I'm a little tired and I wrote this very quickly. I just meant that if T'Dori could recognize Akkadian, it implies that linguistics is somewhat emphasized within Wakanda, at least (and I left this out in my initial post) within the upper class. As someone who lives in the Midwestern United States, where the only languages spoken by the populace at large are English and Spanish, I find this interesting. Obviously, there are a lot of countries where speaking three or four languages is commonplace, but I'm not in one of them, so I'm a bit envious of those who have the skillset.
    I don't think so. To me, it implies Akkadian or linguistics was of interest to Kimo specifically, not upper class Wakandans in general. In the context of this group, it implies that this is a highly educated trio with perhaps individual specialized fields of learning. Which, is entirely appropriate for a 'team' competing in a scientific contest, one where the prize is a mandate to study space exploration. A linguist would be handy for that.

    Now, of course, I could be wrong, especially since we have Hickman repeat that business from FF of the Wakandans being given the 'ability' of superior knowledge in the last Burning Cycle.


    Quote Originally Posted by rsreed13 View Post
    I realize it's unlikely, I just think it would be awesome for little one or two sentence tidbits along with a sketch or two (or a panel from a prior comic if one exists of the subject) would be much more rewarding than what the AR function has been used for thus far. Since this series features characters with a lot of varied history and objects of interest (BP, Namor, BB, and Strange for sure)
    I don't have access to AR. What were the 'extras' in this issue?


    Quote Originally Posted by rsreed13 View Post
    Just saw that. When N'Kono referred to Kimo and T'Dori as his brother and sister, I took him more literal than I should have.
    It was a bit confusing, as the panel where N'Kono's lineage is revealed, started out naming the other two. And there was no other time that any of the three referred to each other as brother and sister, IIRC.

  11. #71
    Senior Member rsreed13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rheged View Post
    I don't think so. To me, it implies Akkadian or linguistics was of interest to Kimo specifically, not upper class Wakandans in general. In the context of this group, it implies that this is a highly educated trio with perhaps individual specialized fields of learning. Which, is entirely appropriate for a 'team' competing in a scientific contest, one where the prize is a mandate to study space exploration. A linguist would be handy for that.

    Now, of course, I could be wrong, especially since we have Hickman repeat that business from FF of the Wakandans being given the 'ability' of superior knowledge in the last Burning Cycle.

    I don't have access to AR. What were the 'extras' in this issue?

    It was a bit confusing, as the panel where N'Kono's lineage is revealed, started out naming the other two. And there was no other time that any of the three referred to each other as brother and sister, IIRC.
    True. I'm probably just looking a bit too much into it.

    The AR's for the issue:
    Cover: I can't get this to work. Typically this is just an introduction to the series.
    Page 1: An explanation of the Illuminati's history.
    Page 2 (Momento Mori title page): Can't get this one to work.
    Page 8: Sketches of Black Swan (in the AR, she is called White Swan) and of her panel on page 9.
    Page 9: Same as Page 8.

    These are pretty standard as to what the AR includes. Every once in awhile, you'll have a greeting from a creator talking about the series, but mostly it's sketches or little tidbits of information. One of the best uses of the AR (imo) was in All-New X-Men #1 where they show the original panels that a scene was recreating.
    Just before he gets shot, N'Kono says, "Kimo... T'Dori... They killed my brother, my sister. We must go back and make them pay." This was the line that had me confused.

  12. #72
    IMPERIUS REX!!! Rheged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rsreed13 View Post
    True. I'm probably just looking a bit too much into it.

    The AR's for the issue:
    Cover: I can't get this to work. Typically this is just an introduction to the series.
    Page 1: An explanation of the Illuminati's history.
    Page 2 (Momento Mori title page): Can't get this one to work.
    Page 8: Sketches of Black Swan (in the AR, she is called White Swan) and of her panel on page 9.
    Page 9: Same as Page 8.

    These are pretty standard as to what the AR includes. Every once in awhile, you'll have a greeting from a creator talking about the series, but mostly it's sketches or little tidbits of information. One of the best uses of the AR (imo) was in All-New X-Men #1 where they show the original panels that a scene was recreating.
    Just before he gets shot, N'Kono says, "Kimo... T'Dori... They killed my brother, my sister. We must go back and make them pay." This was the line that had me confused.
    Yeah, that's definitely part of the confusion about those three.

    Thanks for the AR info. I bet the cover one is either Jock's sketches, and the Memento Mori one might be the trailer Marvel released for the book shortly before it dropped.

    Interesting that she was originally called a White Swan.

  13. #73
    Astounding Super Bird chariset's Avatar
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    I think the other two were N'kono's half-siblings at best. Otherwise, why would T'Challa single him out for the compliment about his grandfather? He would say it to all three because it would apply to all of them.

  14. #74
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    Ive had too many instances of collecting a long storyline only for it to fail at the end, making the whole story void and disposable. My examples are the recent Defenders run and also the much praised Hickmans Fantastic Four run. Also the Seige run with that pathetic Thor kills Sentry ending.

    This is also what i am expecting with the Superior Spider-Man run. They want us to trust them and keep buying because it will be a great ending but i have no trust in them what so ever.

    This is one of the main reasons people buy trades now, because they know that the book they are paying good money for has an ending that can be quickly reviewed before purchased.

    I have no faith that this will be a good book and will only purchase this book once i know that they are able to create a good ending to their story.

  15. #75
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    Also.. i am the last person to defend Bendis, however his FIRST illuminati 6 part story was PERFECT.

    and now as per usualy marvel wants to 'shake things up' and f*ck with the team.

    *Master Debater imagines all the Marvel staff walking around the ofice randomly picking up various objects and shaking them up and throwing them across the room in a vain attempt to improve things*

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