New Avengers #1 *Spoilers*

**chariset** · 01-04-2013, 12:40 AM

"Moral center" doesn't mean "lead in a morality play." (Where is all this talk of a morality play coming from anyway?) "Moral center" means the voice of conscience, telling people when they've crossed the line. If the New Avengers use the Infinity Gems, the moral center would be whoever is saying "It's right that we use them here" or "you used them there, but that was wrong."

**Rheged** · 01-04-2013, 02:42 AM

Originally Posted by chariset

"Moral center" doesn't mean "lead in a morality play." (Where is all this talk of a morality play coming from anyway?) "Moral center" means the voice of conscience, telling people when they've crossed the line. If the New Avengers use the Infinity Gems, the moral center would be whoever is saying "It's right that we use them here" or "you used them there, but that was wrong."

Ironically, Namor has been the "moral center" of the Illuminati, until now.

It's another fan leap of logic from Hickman saying NA is kinda like a gray morality tale to NA IS a morality play with T'challa being the protagonist and the rest of the Illuminati trying to seduce him.

**Rheged** · 01-04-2013, 02:48 AM

@chariset

Who has Dr. Strange faced that is Sumerian or has ties to Sumer?

I know someone else suggested it waay back when the previews first hit, I think Exodus Cloak, but now that we know this Manifold was an AU, I'm definitely getting that Emma Frost vibe from Black Swan. Is it just the costume?

**ExodusCloak** · 01-04-2013, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by Rheged

@chariset

Who has Dr. Strange faced that is Sumerian or has ties to Sumer?

I know someone else suggested it waay back when the previews first hit, I think Exodus Cloak, but now that we know this Manifold was an AU, I'm definitely getting that Emma Frost vibe from Black Swan. Is it just the costume?

Its the costume design I think and if that was the case she has new powers unless, the Black Swans get other powers. Wonder if they'll be AU versions of the Illuminati's significant others e.g. Clea, Sue, Medusa, Storm etc..

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__..._4_Solicit.jpg

**Juggernaut Punch** · 01-04-2013, 06:11 AM

Originally Posted by chariset

I'm starting to regret ever mentioning the word 'center.'

The Illuminati have never had a leader. Hickman saying they all think they're in charge is completely true. Tony and Reed sometimes come across as de facto leaders since they're allies more often than not. It was also Tony's idea.

Anyone can call a meeting but I don't think Professor X, Namor, Black Bolt, or Strange ever have.

Professor X called a meeting regarding the Beyonder and also presented them with their first issue during the first meeting in the form of Krakoa. Namor considered calling them when his empire was crumbling, but chose not to because he didn't think he could trust them. Reed or Tony have called all the other meetings shown thus far.

**klinton** · 01-04-2013, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch

Professor X called a meeting regarding the Beyonder and also presented them with their first issue during the first meeting in the form of Krakoa. Namor considered calling them when his empire was crumbling, but chose not to because he didn't think he could trust them. Reed or Tony have called all the other meetings shown thus far.

Steve called one during AvX as well.

**Victor Freeman** · 01-04-2013, 06:47 AM

Originally Posted by Rheged

Ironically, Namor has been the "moral center" of the Illuminati, until now.

It's another fan leap of logic from Hickman saying NA is kinda like a gray morality tale to NA IS a morality play with T'challa being the protagonist and the rest of the Illuminati trying to seduce him.

Another fan leap of logic?

http://www.formspring.me/JonathanHic...57123719870995

So T'Challa's just there to be another useless "moral anchor" much like Luke Cage was in Bendis's iteration of the New Avengers? I might as well save my money and give this a miss.

JonathanHickman
If the book is a morality play, what better role for your guy?

But, yeah, it sounds like you're looking to be unhappy. Go spend your money on something you know you'll love.

In his own words, it's not me leaping to anything. Why shoot the messenger?

In the Next Big Thing New Avengers liveblog Ancoucement Brevoort and Hickman said this:

“Black Panther is the lynchpin character of New Avengers. The central character. He’s very important to the Avengers franchise as a whole.” – Tom Brevoort

“Black Panther is certainly the moral center of New Avengers.” – Jonathan Hickman

http://fizmarble.com/2012/10/05/marv...hing-liveblog/

Oh well, there is no way to debate when debaters are dug in on unreasonable positions, despite everything refuting that position.

**Victor Freeman** · 01-04-2013, 06:57 AM

Originally Posted by chariset

"Moral center" doesn't mean "lead in a morality play." (Where is all this talk of a morality play coming from anyway?) "Moral center" means the voice of conscience, telling people when they've crossed the line. If the New Avengers use the Infinity Gems, the moral center would be whoever is saying "It's right that we use them here" or "you used them there, but that was wrong."

I'm sorry it does. He not just the moral center, but the moral anchor. But hey, even when the Tom Brevoort says this: “Black Panther is the lynchpin character of New Avengers. The central character. He’s very important to the Avengers franchise as a whole.” It doesn't matter.

It seems that some fans of other character are in denial. I'm looking forward to Black Bolt having a role, but I accept that Black Panther is the book central character. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. It's really no use debating when statements by the writer and editor appearently don't matter. Nice talking to you though. I hope Stranges get a lot of love. The same with Namor. Being the central character of a team book doesn't mean the other members will not get major scene time. I'm thinking that's why some of the resistance? Hickman said they would all get it.

**Kieran_Frost** · 01-04-2013, 07:10 AM

Finally got round to reading this, REALLY enjoyed it. The art was much better on the page than in the previews; Black Swan is AWESOME (I also like she is one of many, like T'Challa). Am I the only one who thinks this is an alternate Black Panther? Massively enjoyable, can't wait for the next issue.

**Jake Fury** · 01-04-2013, 07:20 AM

Really good start in this one. I have always loved Epting's art and it didn't disappoint here. I also enjoyed the focus being on T'Challa, for me personally he is the most interesting of the Illuminati.

**Victor Freeman** · 01-04-2013, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost

Finally got round to reading this, REALLY enjoyed it. The art was much better on the page than in the previews; Black Swan is AWESOME (I also like she is one of many, like T'Challa). Am I the only one who thinks this is an alternate Black Panther? Massively enjoyable, can't wait for the next issue.

Great observation. I was thinking the same. Black Swan is awesome. I feel for AU Manifold as he didn't stand a chance with her.

**Deep_Sleeper** · 01-04-2013, 10:27 AM

There's a lot going on in this book and I'm eager to see what the long game of this comic will be. The art was really good and I'm pleasantly intrigued. Count me in for this book.

**Clea** · 01-04-2013, 10:32 AM

I'm perfectly content with the idea of Black Panther as the center/lynchpin character of this new team (be it moral center or otherwise). T'Challa is an interesting character. So long as the other Illuminati members get equal time and are written well, so far as I'm concerned casting the Black Panther as the central voice of conscience was a shrewd choice. Given the current team membership, IMO he would offer the most balanced opinions and advice. If nothing else he'll give them a fresh, new perspective on their current and future actions. 'm looking forward to seeing how it all plays out.

**Matt Murdock's Swagger** · 01-04-2013, 11:20 AM

Always been a fan of BP......just need a good writer to make him more appealing which I hope Hickman will do well.

**Rheged** · 01-04-2013, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Victor Freeman

Another fan leap of logic?

http://www.formspring.me/JonathanHic...57123719870995

Yes, yet again you are leaping over the word "IF," as well as making a huge assumption that 'morality tale' = a medieval play with very specific roles.

Originally Posted by Victor Freeman

Oh well, there is no way to debate when debaters are dug in on unreasonable positions, despite everything refuting that position.

You got that right. Try moving out of that unreasonable position of yours.

Originally Posted by Victor Freeman

It seems that some fans of other character are in denial. I'm looking forward to Black Bolt having a role, but I accept that Black Panther is the book central character. I guess we will have to agree to disagree. It's really no use debating when statements by the writer and editor appearently don't matter. Nice talking to you though. I hope Stranges get a lot of love. The same with Namor. Being the central character of a team book doesn't mean the other members will not get major scene time. I'm thinking that's why some of the resistance? Hickman said they would all get it.

Not agreeing with your opinion or your particular and intractable interpretation of those statements by the writer and editor doesn't mean anyone is denial. I think most folks understand that Marvel is pushing Black Panther on this book. What that exactly means, everyone has an opinion on.

The only thing I do agree with you on, is we're done here.