Superman #15 Discussion/Spoilers

[ForeverYoung8]

Superman was also pretty intelligent under Morrison. Memorizing every nut & bolt of the Miracle Machine, for instance. Superman Beyond displayed great intelligence. Of course there's All-Star, too, but strictly speaking canonically Superman was much more intelligent Post-Birthright than he appeared to be during the Byrne / Jurgens run, imo.

[DochaDocha]

On a side note, I was just rereading a bit and I noticed why Lobdell used "beloved", it's the same thing Lara called Jor-El.

Good catch. Of course, that's going to make some people angry...

[adkal]

He isn't. Lobdell said in his latest interview, Lex is the sort of person that he's only in prison because he wants to be there.

I'm not reading the interviews these days, but doesn't that run contrary to what Superman told Superboy about the nature of the prison?

Superman: Lex, you diseased maniac! Aren't you tired of our to-and-fro? You know what would show you to be better than me? Design a prison even you wouldn't be able to break out of.
Lex: *shrug* Okay. (internal voice: teehee! What a chump!)*

(Note: the above dialogue was note in the comic)

On a side note, I was just rereading a bit and I noticed why Lobdell used "beloved", it's the same thing Lara called Jor-El.

um...yeah...but their relationship was quite different and (here's that word again) organic. So for (for me) Kal and Diana's isn't.

[super1man]

I'm not reading the interviews these days, but doesn't that run contrary to what Superman told Superboy about the nature of the prison?

Superman: Lex, you diseased maniac! Aren't you tired of our to-and-fro? You know what would show you to be better than me? Design a prison even you wouldn't be able to break out of.
Lex: *shrug* Okay. (internal voice: teehee! What a chump!)*

(Note: the above dialogue was note in the comic)



um...yeah...but their relationship was quite different and (here's that word again) organic. So for (for me) Kal and Diana's isn't.

Ok, Lex can design a prison that he can not escape from (at the time he made the prison design). Ok if he thinks a lot then he can design a prison he cannot escape from for a few months to a year maybe but designing that prison means he knows all the weak points. Even if there is no weak points he knows the prison inside out. So eventually he will come out with a plan to escape. Like a puzzle which may give you trouble for a few days but you can eventually solve it.

The prison was only meant to be a temporary holding facility. It could not be anything more as Lex is the one who built it and maybe he is already there for more than a year, which is more than enough.

[adkal]

That's my point. There's Superman patting himself on the back on how he used Lex's own brain and ego against him, whilst seemingly oblivious to Lex having more reach and freedom than an actual 'prison' would do.

Like I said, I'm hoping it's part of the overall 'game' between the two of them....

[adkal]

We'll probably end up with something like:

Lex designs the prison
Superman tweaks a design aspect
Lex knew Superman would tweak that and compensated for it elsewhere
Superman knew Lex would know and would tweak so he tweaked the compensation
Lex knew Superman would know about the compensator so he had another in place
Superman knew Lex would have a secondary so he compensated for the compensator

etc

Finally, now that Superboy has been in the prison, Lex has a new 'out' in place, but the suit and the genetic compression effect wasn't anticipated, however with the AMAZO having recorded Superboy's compressed genetic signature, and Lex knowing the 'normal' genetic signature, he's able to work around it and use the EPCI and other levels of traps to confuse the system and


Ah, I'll just wait and see what Lobdell throws at us

[misslane38]

Good catch. Of course, that's going to make some people angry...

Well, it doesn't make me angry. First of all, Lara and Jor-El were so much further along in their relationship that for Diana's affection to be compared to Lara's after Diana and Clark had only been on one date is hilariously over the top. Second, Lobdell could only have one term of endearment he favors. Third, Lara and Jor-El aren't Superman's only parents and they certainly weren't the ones that modeled a loving relationship to him as he was growing up. It was Jonathan and Martha Kent whose love, acceptance, and values Clark credits for basically his inspiration, his soul.

[super1man]

We'll probably end up with something like:

Lex designs the prison
Superman tweaks a design aspect
Lex knew Superman would tweak that and compensated for it elsewhere
Superman knew Lex would know and would tweak so he tweaked the compensation
Lex knew Superman would know about the compensator so he had another in place
Superman knew Lex would have a secondary so he compensated for the compensator

etc

Finally, now that Superboy has been in the prison, Lex has a new 'out' in place, but the suit and the genetic compression effect wasn't anticipated, however with the AMAZO having recorded Superboy's compressed genetic signature, and Lex knowing the 'normal' genetic signature, he's able to work around it and use the EPCI and other levels of traps to confuse the system and


Ah, I'll just wait and see what Lobdell throws at us

I would like to believe that Lex genuinely built something that he could not escape from /manipulate at that time. Lex would not go back on his word but in time he came up with ways to work around the problem. Superman may have added some stuffs to the prison but he also believes that the prison is only temporary holding facility for Lex. If it can keep Lex there for even a year that would have been a great victory and the prison could always be reused for a dozen other villains when Lex eventually escapes.

[brettc1]

Great issue! Love seeing Superman and Superboy together getting along.

Odd, because I was wondering why Superman was acting like such as ass-hat.

"Any normal human would be choking to breathe, his eyes bleeding."

"But - I'm part human. How did you know it wouldn't affect me?"

"I didn't. Now I do."

Gotta agree with Superby, that was a a-hole thing to do.

And he's calling Wonder Woman his beloved now? That was fast, even for a guy with Superpeed.

[misslane38]

Gotta agree with Superby, that was a a-hole thing to do.

Lobdell seems to like writing Superman as incapable of going an entire issue without acting like a total jerk at least once.

And he's calling Wonder Woman his beloved now? That was fast, even for a guy with Superpeed.

Actually, it was Wonder Woman who Lobdell wrote in the narration box as wanting to call Superman her beloved. According to the timeline, it's been a week since the kiss on the Lincoln Memorial where she was crying over Steve, maybe a day since their first date, and hours since Clark was acting jealous about Lois' boyfriend, making Diana considering Clark her beloved especially questionable.

[brettc1]

Actually, it was Wonder Woman who Lobdell wrote in the narration box as wanting to call Superman her beloved. According to the timeline, it's been a week since the kiss on the Lincoln Memorial where she was crying over Steve, maybe a day since their first date, and hours since Clark was acting jealous about Lois' boyfriend, making Diana considering Clark her beloved especially questionable.

Mmmmm. You're right. Well Lodbell does seem to have a tendency to show warrior women as desperate to get guys in the sack.

Wasn't there a page in the last couple of issues where he is calling Lois the most amazing woman he has ever met and trying to work out if they are 'just friends'?

This is all very weird.

[misslane38]

Mmmmm. You're right. Well Lodbell does seem to have a tendency to show warrior women as desperate to get guys in the sack.

Wasn't there a page in the last couple of issues where he is calling Lois the most amazing woman he has ever met and trying to work out if they are 'just friends'?

This is all very weird.

Yep, all true. Apparently, Clark thinking of Lois as "amazing" and struggling to overcome his jealousy and unrequited love all take place after his first date with Diana in Justice League #15. Weird indeed.

[Sacred Knight]

Superboy obviously is starting to like him regardless. He calls him a "colossal butt" but at the same time becomes more impressed with him the more time he spends with him. And vice versa. Superman's obviously weary of the kid but I can already sense he's growing on him.

[thepenguin]

Mmmmm. You're right. Well Lodbell does seem to have a tendency to show warrior women as desperate to get guys in the sack.

Wasn't there a page in the last couple of issues where he is calling Lois the most amazing woman he has ever met and trying to work out if they are 'just friends'?

This is all very weird.

Well Lois can be the most amazing woman ever met. So? There are many synonyms that can be used to describe people and they mean the same thing. The JL are the bravest people Superman ever known. Does that belittle other brave people? Superman is the most human of all of us. Batman said that. Do you hold that up as gospel he is the most human? And no one else can be that way? If Clark said Diana is the most incredible or magnificent woman he met what would you say? That disses what he said about Lois?

It's all really ironic anyone calling a term of endearment as unbelievable when it's clear people can fall in love at first sight. It's got very little to do with time as many people...even normal people will tell you. Some know right away. Others are friends then lovers. Diana and Clark were attracted to each other at first sight but she was not available with Trevor on the scene. He was 6 months arrived in Metropolis. She was his work colleague and they obviously had a rapport based on the fact he felt capable enough to go find her and chat with her (as seen after Graves battle) and she was willing to talk to him and open up about her difficulty with Steve and relationships. It's not like they strangers ie just saw each other when they kissed or dated. Diana would have seen enough of Superman and how he operated as a hero to admire him. She just did not know all the intimate stuff.

I mean in WW Marston had Diana prepared to drop everything she knew , leave friends and family etc to follow a man she knew little about and zero of his world because what? Yeah she was in "love". Darling Steve. And dear Steve usually over the deacades knows little about WW other than she's darn pretty and a hero and saves him and he "loves" her while Diana Prince languishes for him.

Lois sees Superman and wants him to read her mind and guess the color of her panties. Yeah, you know what that meant and he barely knew her but was willing to turn time etc. Some might call it "love."

So many stories of men where they just meet women and "love" is supposedly understood and accepted etc. And the thing is Clark and Diana have had a longer time knowing each other but the fact she uses an endearment is no need to go why. Diana is from a culture that is not modern. Have we forgotten that? Why would she not use something different to us? Beloved has an old world sort of connotation to it too. Do we know what people in Themyscira many many centuries ago would term the one they have romantic feelings for or is there some rule that you know that they can't say Beloved? It could be a simple refernece back to Lara/Jor-El as someone else said. In the context it was said and possibly referenced has zero to do with needing to be an old married couple too. The writing as I see it means the two people, in their mind see each other in a romatnic way and have decided they are in a relationship for now.

[misslane38]

Well Lois can be the most amazing woman ever met. So? There are many synonyms that can be used to describe people and they mean the same thing. The JL are the bravest people Superman ever known. Does that belittle other brave people? Superman is the most human of all of us. Batman said that. Do you hold that up as gospel he is the most human? And no one else can be that way? If Clark said Diana is the most incredible or magnificent woman he met what would you say? That disses what he said about Lois?

"Amazing" is not as specific as "bravest" so "amazing" refers to many qualities all at once. He is amazed by the whole package, in other words, which could include her bravery.

It's all really ironic anyone calling a term of endearment as unbelievable when it's clear people can fall in love at first sight. It's got very little to do with time as many people...even normal people will tell you. Some know right away. Others are friends then lovers. Diana and Clark were attracted to each other at first sight but she was not available with Trevor on the scene.

But Diana couldn't have fallen in love at first sight, especially since I don't recall her showing any signs of attraction. The only thing anyone has ever used to illustrate any foreshadowing to this relationship is the "You're strong"/"I know" exchange from Superman to Wonder Woman. Then we learn she doesn't know Superman enough to even trust him without getting his life story, according to Justice League #13. Furthermore, any "love" based on first sight is superficial love better know as "infatuation" (a.k.a. not true love). Meanwhile, Clark's feelings were directed elsewhere to Lois who he is apparently still invested in even after his first date and second kiss with Diana per Lobdell's established timeline of events.

So many stories of men where they just meet women and "love" is supposedly understood and accepted etc. And the thing is Clark and Diana have had a longer time knowing each other but the fact she uses an endearment is no need to go why. Diana is from a culture that is not modern. Have we forgotten that? Why would she not use something different to us? Beloved has an old world sort of connotation to it too. Do we know what people in Themyscira many many centuries ago would term the one they have romantic feelings for or is there some rule that you know that they can't say Beloved? It could be a simple refernece back to Lara/Jor-El as someone else said. In the context it was said and possibly referenced has zero to do with needing to be an old married couple too. The writing as I see it means the two people, in their mind see each other in a romatic way and have decided they are in a relationship for now.

Like the many stories you mentioned, it's just too over the top for my taste. But what makes it a bitter taste is more related to Clark's still fresh feelings for Lois. By Lobdell's reckoning, the "beloved" narration comes a day after he spied on Lois' text message at the DP and just hours after Clark's jealously laced comments to Lois back at his apartment, which itself only takes place about a day after his second kiss and first date with Diana. My feeling is Lobdell could have accomplished the same goal (indicating Clark and Diana see each other in a romantic way now) in a much more logical and subtle way.