Superman #15 Discussion/Spoilers

[adkal]

Jesus. Stop sounding so bitter. Why haven't you been posting up all the great reviews of the JL #15 Clark and Diana stuff? You really only do stuff to try to suit yourself bias. What is WW? Chopped Liver? Or is it only Lois should get all the sterling intros? It's the new status quo and he and Diana are a couple now. Get use to it. She is going to be a part of his life and he has been attracted to her for years and it seems their relationship has progressed from a kiss to the time shared in Smallville. Why the heck shouldn't he say something about her?

The problem (for me) is that we haven't actually seen this 'progress' you (and others) are trying to claim. There's nothing organic about their relationship at all, and falling back on the 'we're only seeing it in the pages of JL' is (sorry) a cop-out. It also means completely ignoring the first year of the title - which Lobdell has pretty much encouraged, but, in light of him referring to an event from issue 2, is a case of selective retconning a year after the reboot...heck, a month (our time) after an admission of admiration and affection...

JL comes out before SM. Johns and Lobdell maybe don't exchange scripts but it is more than likely all the writers have a jist what is going on and will fit the status quo in their stories. Lobdell is on record to say he is interested in writing/progressing the status quo, not showing how it started. That is Johns job. It's no more difficult to get than what goes on in many titles across the DCU and the new 52.

Another cop-out. I'm sorry, but in this day and age, when information and updates can be shared and coordinated within moments, the excuse of them not exchanging scripts doesn't work - it's what editors are for (they're the 'guiding hand').

It's up to you to nit pick if you want though.

Then why claim someone is 'bitter'?

[ForeverYoung8]

There were moments of potential. There were moments of Superman, frankly, being a 'dick'. There were moments of 'trying too hard' ('Automated Meta Adapting Zeta-Operating Defense')

Automated
Meta
Adapting
Zeta
Operating Defense

(probably just an easter egg.....)

And misslane...your borderline fanatical desire to harp on anyone who even remotely likes the Clark/Diana dynamic is becoming tiresome. Lois & Clark is one of the great love stories. It's also one of the greatest played-out love stories. It will be back. But arguing (you don't debate, you argue; this is where you'll reply with "tell me where I said..." as so many of your posts do) is only going to get you on someones ignore list. If you want people to converse with you, you can't treat them like children. Please, for the sake of this board, try to remember that.

[adkal]

Yeah I really don't see where any of this Superman is acting badly to Superboy talk is coming from.

Can't speak for others but, for me, it was when he told him about the content of the air they were now breathing. Knowing Kon would be fine and taking him through is one thing, but here he didn't know and just did it anyway.

Then there was the whole 'unsupervised superhumans' spiel. It doesn't matter that Argus has links with the JL, the League is still autonomous, so, here, he's being a hypocrite....

[Zionite1]

I agree with what others have said-this is the best issue of the new 52 Superman.Highlights were the superman,superboy,lex interactions.I especially like the way Lobdell potrays the Supes/Lex relationship.Oh speaking of Lex how awesome is he?Best luthor so far although I didnt care for the "jokerisms" he displayed.

I like that Lobdell potrays superman as a Badass but I dont like it when it veers into jackass territory-like when Superman drags Superboy into the prison with no idea whether Superboy cld sustain the methane gas.

The wondewoman romance line was cringworthy.
But overall a great issue.

PS-Tshirt and jeans Supes puts the armored look to shame

[adkal]

Automated
Meta
Adapting
Zeta
Operating Defense

*sigh*

I know what it was, what I'm saying, though, is that they way it was conveyed was 'trying too hard'.

(probably just an easter egg.....)

Besides, we already had an Amazo reference back in the first arc of [/i]Justice League[/i]...

[manofsteel1979]

So if the idea was shelved was this going to be going back to the golden age where there was a fight and Supes made Lex lose all his hair? If it is a case of Lex killing someone, well given his familly was killed via a different means so their out, my only ideas would be Lana or Pete. Unless they have a new character in the works for this fate. Hey maybe Lex killed his dog?

I seem to recall a story on Bleeding Cool awhile back around the time George Perez was on his way out on SUPERMAN, and It was mentioned that one of the possible rumored plotlines he (or editorial) proposed was Lana Lang being dead in the New 52 continuity. Now, at the time I passed it off as just idle chatter and rumor...but I wonder now.

I can't think of anything else other than the death of Pete, Lana or both that would have sent Superman that far over the edge where he almost killed Lex. it is conspicuous that there has been no mention of them in the present day. Hmm.

Anyhow, I immensely enjoyed the issue. best take on Lex I've seen in awhile. I like the more Holmes/Moriarty vibe to their dynamic. The Scars are a bit off putting, but the story attached to them has got me intrigued. Besides, if a later writer/team want's to get rid of them, all lex has to do is visit his plastic surgeon, or invent something that gets rid of them. I buy the fact that he chooses to keep them just as salt in Superman's own more emotional wounds to constantly remind him that he ALMOST broke him...and that has to eat at Clark a lot!

[ForeverYoung8]

*sigh*

I know what it was, what I'm saying, though, is that they way it was conveyed was 'trying too hard'.



Besides, we already had an Amazo reference back in the first arc of [/i]Justice League[/i]...

*sigh*

lol Forget it.

[adkal]

*sigh*

lol Forget it.

Bring it

[Auguste Dupin]

Can't speak for others but, for me, it was when he told him about the content of the air they were now breathing. Knowing Kon would be fine and taking him through is one thing, but here he didn't know and just did it anyway.

Then there was the whole 'unsupervised superhumans' spiel. It doesn't matter that Argus has links with the JL, the League is still autonomous, so, here, he's being a hypocrite....

On the other hand, we're talking about teenagers here. It's a bit like when the Avengers didn't support the Young Avengers, and asked them to stop their activities. Sure, nobody supervised the Avengers when they started, but they were all adults, and they were all established superheroes in their own right. Same for the JL. What I find interesting, however, is that he doesn't seem to have an issue with bringing Superboy along for the fight the way he seems to have with the Titans.
As for the gas scene, well, if you look at what Superman says said gas does to human beings, you can see it's not lethal in any way, or even causing anything dangerous in the long run. Tears and a hard time to breathe seem to be the main effects. While he didn't know if Superboy would be affected by the gas, he knew that the risk wasn't that high. I mean, it's not like he gambled with his life or anything, at worst, he would have had to bring back a crying Superboy outside. Plus, he had no way of knowing if he could take it beforehand.

[adkal]

I'm sorry, but bleeding eyes are not 'tears'.

Choking is not merely 'difficulty breathing'.

There's a reason why the prison isn't manned, which is made quite apparent by Superman. And Superboy calls him out on it (him, and Kryptonians in general).

[Auguste Dupin]

I'm sorry, but bleeding eyes are not 'tears'.

Choking is not merely 'difficulty breathing'.

There's a reason why the prison isn't manned, which is made quite apparent by Superman. And Superboy calls him out on it (him, and Kryptonians in general).

Still, the exit door was right behind them. A push is all that was needed to take him outside, and taking him outside at superspeed would take less than a second. He may have been dickish to an extend, but he wasn't putting his life in danger or anything.
Besides, why no one could be sure he was Kryptonian enough to take it in stride the way Superman did, the fact he had a third of Superman's DNA, and another third of another (possibly powerful in it's own right) alien made it unlikely that he would react to the gas just like a regular guard would. Invulnerability and all that.

[adkal]

On the other hand, we're talking about teenagers here. It's a bit like when the Avengers didn't support the Young Avengers, and asked them to stop their activities. Sure, nobody supervised the Avengers when they started, but they were all adults, and they were all established superheroes in their own right.

Tim is pushing 18, so almost drafting age. He's also got almost as much experience as this version of Superman...

The Avengers being 'established superheroes' is pushing it as they were all 'new to the game'.

Same for the JL.

In this continuity, when the team 'started':

Vic was not a superhero and had zero experience. He was, initially, hiding from his father (post accident) and merged with various alien technologies they barely had any clue about (hence popping up in Apokolips every thousand or so uses of the Boom Tube tech).

Diana was also not being considered a superhero.

Batman was a vigilante, hunted by the police.

Aquaman had barely been heard of.

Superman and Flash were the only two actually directly involved in super heroics. Green Lantern is separate.

What I find interesting, however, is that he doesn't seem to have an issue with bringing Superboy along for the fight the way he seems to have with the Titans.

Superboy's already directly involved, having already been targeted by H'El.

[adkal]

Still, the exit door was right behind them. A push is all that was needed to take him outside, and taking him outside at superspeed would take less than a second. He may have been dickish to an extend, but he wasn't putting his life in danger or anything.

So you concede he was being a dick? (Note, I didn't say anything putting his life in danger).

Besides, why no one could be sure he was Kryptonian enough to take it in stride the way Superman did, the fact he had a third of Superman's DNA, and another third of another (possibly powerful in it's own right) alien made it unlikely that he would react to the gas just like a regular guard would. Invulnerability and all that.

There is no guarantee that his abilities work in that way, though. In the present continuity, he has shown (unconscious) vulnerabilities, which have been exploited by several people.

[Auguste Dupin]

Tim is pushing 18, so almost drafting age. He's also got almost as much experience as this version of Superman...

The Avengers being 'established superheroes' is pushing it as they were all 'new to the game'.



In this continuity, when the team 'started':

Vic was not a superhero and had zero experience. He was, initially, hiding from his father (post accident) and merged with various alien technologies they barely had any clue about (hence popping up in Apokolips every thousand or so uses of the Boom Tube tech).

Diana was also not being considered a superhero.

Batman was a vigilante, hunted by the police.

Aquaman had barely been heard of.

Superman and Flash were the only two actually directly involved in super heroics. Green Lantern is separate.



Superboy's already directly involved, having already been targeted by H'El.

-Superman isn't supposed to know Tim is on the team. Superboy isn't supposed to know Superman knows Tim. Superman hears SB talking about some team of superkids and dismiss the idea of bringing them along in a battle against a superpowered Kryptonian where they could die. I fail to see what is problematic about him not wanting to involve teenagers he never heard about in a possibly lethal situation, where he can bring along a team of trusted adults to help him.
Thor, Iron Man, AntMan, Hulk and The Wasp all had adventures before the Avengers started, meaning they were as experimented as anybody else when the team started. Plus, they were adults. As in, you know, having reached the age of majority.

-Batman has more experience than anybody else at this, and the fact he's hunted by the police has nothing to do with it (every single superhero were at that point). I fail to see how Green Lantern is separate, except that he was already supervised by somebody else, Aquaman is a king, and Diana was involved in superheroics too and had a partial support from the US army. Only Cyborg is contentious in this version of the League, but I suppose you could argue that the rest of the League was supposed to take care of the "unsupervised" part, and that they didn't exactly choose the roster as much as seeing it being imposed to them by the public. Plus, he's the one who repelled Darkseid and his minions from Earth in the end.

-Fair enough.

[Auguste Dupin]

So you concede he was being a dick? (Note, I didn't say anything putting his life in danger).



There is no guarantee that his abilities work in that way, though. In the present continuity, he has shown (unconscious) vulnerabilities, which have been exploited by several people.

- To an extend. I'd say he took a calculated risk because he wanted him to stay close (for reasons explained on the issue), without having anything to prove r that Superboy would be affected by the gas or not, but believing that, even if things went as bad as possible, he could bring him back outside before any real harm happens.

-I'm not too aware with how his abilities work this, and I suppose Superman isn't really either (unless Supergirl knew specifics and mentionned them to Superman off panel in issue 6).