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  1. #16
    Junior Member darkmorgado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    If they really want to keep up the emo-tastic "feared and hated" BS.
    There's nothing "emo-tastic" about not wanting to be discriminated against, and I say that as a gay person with a disability.

    In fact, I actually find your statement pretty offensive.
    "At the end of the day, it's all just storybook stuff" - Me

  2. #17

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    ITT: People not getting the point of the topic.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Unfortunately the X-Men in the MU has always caused a FEW problems in the MU.

    Yeah, it's sort of weird that mutants are so hated while other heroes aren't. It's not like the average person could know that a hero was a mutant unless they happened to be wearing an X on their uniform.

    But the problem I always had with them is that the rest of the MU essentially needs to be thrown under the bus to allow the X books to tell the stories they want. The public and the government all have to essentially become "villains" so that the X-Men can be potrayed as the victims. And even other heroes essentially have to turn a blind eye to it MOST of the time, because none of the writers want the entire MU to be hijacked by mutant stories on a regular basis.

    On some level I think things might have worked better if the X universe was apart from the rest of the MU. But obviously it's far far too late for that. The X-Men are a part of the MU, and either the marvel needs to work harder to integrate them together better (like they admittedly are in Marvel Now), or readers simply need to use a bit of suspension of belief to make it work.
    Naw there better off hating each other, MarvelNOW is just a temporary solution that will sooner or later wash out and get the two groups back to hating each other or ignoring the others existence. But I agree on the subject of separating the two, mutants and the super humans side of the MarvelU never did mesh well together. They always read better when the two were isolated from one another or just giving passing mentions in dialogue or news reports. But never to crossover.

  4. #19
    Junior Member darkmorgado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
    Do you really think having mutants as literal devil-spawn is more realistic than people just being prejudiced?

    I don't really have a problem with believing anti-mutant prejudice. When you consider groups like the Brotherhood, I can definitely buy that the public will fear and hate mutants. They probably consider mutants as supervillains, basically. The X-Men have always been very iffy in the public eye.
    The way I see it is that it's no different from racists IRL claiming "their" country is being "taken over" by minority groups. They cope with the fear of being a minority with, ironically, discriminating against the real minorities. It's why Nationalism, Patriotism and Racism all tend to go hand in hand.

    Prejudice of mutants has nothing to do with hating people with super-powers. It has everything to do with baseline humans fearing extinction and feeling inferior.
    "At the end of the day, it's all just storybook stuff" - Me

  5. #20
    Junior Member darkmorgado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    If they really want to keep up the emo-tastic "feared and hated" BS, they need to establish an in story reason. Generic bias towards super powered people just reads as stupid.

    If they decided to establish a like between the X-gene and an innate disposition toward evil, it would go a long way. Have it be a shared sequence with demons or something, with definitive markers that could distinguish a mutant from any other super person (like "666" on thier forehead or something). Anything less is more than a little ridiculous.
    This has been done frequently by characters and villains in the MU, just like how many (most?) religions consider being gay innately evil and morally wrong.
    "At the end of the day, it's all just storybook stuff" - Me

  6. #21
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tigerkaya View Post
    Naw there better off hating each other, MarvelNOW is just a temporary solution that will sooner or later wash out and get the two groups back to hating each other or ignoring the others existence. But I agree on the subject of separating the two, mutants and the super humans side of the MarvelU never did mesh well together. They always read better when the two were isolated from one another or just giving passing mentions in dialogue or news reports. But never to crossover.
    Hating each other just makes them both look bad. There is value in the whole hero vs hero thing for specific stories (civil war or AvX), but if it's overdone it frankly hurts everyone in the long run.

    Cooperation just makes sense, because ultimately everyone wants the same thing. There are potential downsides if it's not managed properly because it potentially drags everyone into the mutant stuff if it's taken the most logical conclusion, and it's very unlikely other books want to go there to that degree. Ultimately there's no perfect sollution. But right now they've got stories to tell involving both franchises. When and if they get to the point where they don't, then they can always simply opt not to.

  7. #22
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkmorgado View Post
    There's nothing "emo-tastic" about not wanting to be discriminated against, and I say that as a gay person with a disability.

    In fact, I actually find your statement pretty offensive.
    As an equally gay person facing daily discrimination for my english accent in a french society, I find your offense at my statement overly 'emo-tastic'.

    There's a difference between allowing oneself the be defined by discrimination and disregarding it and moving on with your life.

    As it stands, the X-men have done niether. They segregate themselves and then wonder why everyone 'fears and hates' them. The entire concept is like a recipie for self destruction.

    Finally, with Uncanny Avengers, they're starting to understand what needs to be done to move on. It's just unfortunate that it took Scott razing the earth in fire for them to come to this point.

    I'm liking the new direction where Scott is giving people a reason to 'hate and fear' mutants again. For too long it's just felt like a pity party thrown exclusively by the 'victims'.
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

  8. #23
    Junior Member darkmorgado's Avatar
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    More daftness.

    Are you really saying that if you're being discriminated against by bigots you should just "disregard it"? Really?

    Wonderful. So now I should be tolerating bigotry.

    Does this extend to when a gay-basher beats the cr*p out of me because I'm gay? Should I just say "oh well, some people just don't plain like us f*ggots!" and go on about my day?

    How about when an employer refuses to hire me after giving me a job because they've found out I have a disability (even when it won't affect my ability do my job)?

    Should I "disregard" it then?
    "At the end of the day, it's all just storybook stuff" - Me

  9. #24
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkmorgado View Post
    More daftness.

    Are you really saying that if you're being discriminated against by bigots you should just "disregard it"? Really?

    Wonderful. So now I should be tolerating bigotry.

    Does this extend to when a gay-basher beats the cr*p out of me because I'm gay? Should I just say "oh well, some people just don't plain like us f*ggots!" and go on about my day?

    How about when an employer refuses to hire me after giving me a job because they've found out I have a disability (even when it won't affect my ability do my job)?

    Should I "disregard" it then?


    Not at all. But moving to a compound that caters exclusively to gay persons with handicaps wouldn't do much to further your cause, now would it?

    You're barking up the wrong tree here, mate. I'm not your enemy, nor ignorant of your plight. I've missed out on jobs and advancements in jobs due to my own language handicap. I'm not impressed with your tales of woe and can run laps around you with my own 'poor me' stories. That accomplishes nothing though.

    I'm just saying that the X-men's modus operandi has been...lacking. Rather than owning their own lives, they've retreated. Wanda was setting up house in suburbia in the 80's. Living the life. What were the X-men doing? Why aren't they respected members of publicly accepted super groups?

    They're finally getting thier sh*t sorted, but it took them a hell of a long way to get here.

    The next step, imho, would be to open the doors to the JGS to baseline humans.

    Integration is the key. :D
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Huthaifa's Avatar
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    Being a mutant is so different, than being bit by a bug or caught in a gamma explosion. The paranoia of new breed of human being born. Literally born better than you is scary. The idea of a ten year old being able to blow up a city block with a scream is frightening. Imagine being a mother, and your child is born with devil horns or angel wings. It would drive you crazy.It would have deep religious impact.Is that high school kid just fast or is he superhuman. Is that nerd really brilliant or is he reading my mind. Supr heroes are the absurd. They are a side show or an extreme.They are reality tv.

  11. #26
    Senior Member Huthaifa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Not at all. But moving to a compound that caters exclusively to gay persons with handicaps wouldn't do much to further your cause, now would it?

    You're barking up the wrong tree here, mate. I'm not your enemy, nor ignorant of your plight. I've missed out on jobs and advancements in jobs due to my own language handicap. I'm not impressed with your tales of woe and can run laps around you with my own 'poor me' stories. That accomplishes nothing though.

    I'm just saying that the X-men's modus operandi has been...lacking. Rather than owning their own lives, they've retreated. Wanda was setting up house in suburbia in the 80's. Living the life. What were the X-men doing? Why aren't they respected members of publicly accepted super groups?

    They're finally getting thier sh*t sorted, but it took them a hell of a long way to get here.

    The next step, imho, would be to open the doors to the JGS to baseline humans.

    Integration is the key. :D
    We rarely agree, but I am with you here. I hate isolationist X-men stories. How do you tell a story about bigotry when everyone around is in your same group. Where is the conflict that drives the story. When you look at the Xmen's history, most of the most traumatic events were caused by mutants. M day, Genosha,and even the Legacy Virus ar all caused by Mutants. This is one of the reasons why I am fan of Xfactor, and the premise of District X.Why I loved Storm marrying the Black Panther. You want freshen up the X books, than get them out of the X ghetto.

  12. #27
    Junior Member darkmorgado's Avatar
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    It really depends on the situation and context you find yourself in.

    Some people complain about, for example, gay clubs, claiming that they are "segregational". And fwiw I can see where they're coming from.

    In a perfect world, there would be no need for gay clubs. However, we don't live in a perfect world. If I want to go somewhere with my partner where we can be ourselves and openly display our affection, for example (and I don't mean groping each other or sticking our tongues down each other's throats), then I would feel far more comfortable going to a gay or gay-friendly club as opposed to a "straight" club, because I am far less likely to experience prejudice or open hostility even for just holding hands with my partner or giving them a hug. I don't see that as segregating myself, I see it as being a "safe space".

    Just because society is more tolerant than it was say, 50 years ago, does not mean that there isn't still discrimination out there.

    People who claim that there's no need for gay clubs, gay Pride, gay Lifestyle magazines, etc are just displaying ignorance based on viewing the world from a heteronormative point of view.

    As a disabled person, if I look for work I tend to look for employers that are signed up to the "Positive about disabled people" government-run scheme, because I am far more likely to get interviews or be hired by companies if I know they are open to disabled workers.

    There's many more examples, particularly around disability-stuff (the social model of disability is the best example, which says that the handicap is not the disability itself but the obstacles society has placed in the way to make life more difficult), which is why buildings have wheelchair ramps and access lifts, for example (I don't use a wheelchair myself, but that's an example). And as a gay person who has straight friends as well as gay friends, I feel much more comfortable around other gay people in a party setting than I do around my straight friends having a party, because I respect that although they accept my sexuality they might feel uncomfortable if I was to display affection towards my partner in front of them.
    Last edited by darkmorgado; 01-01-2013 at 02:44 PM.
    "At the end of the day, it's all just storybook stuff" - Me

  13. #28
    Junior Member darkmorgado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huthaifa View Post
    the Legacy Virus ar all caused by Mutants.
    Wrong. Stryfe was a clone (arguably not a "natural" mutant as he was created by artificial means). Mr Sinister, who (unknowingly) released the virus, isn't even a mutant. He's a mutate who gained his abilities by tampering with his own genetic code.

    In fact, even among their super-powered enemies, there's arguably more non-mutant ones than there are natural mutants. Arcade, Bastion, Juggernaut, Sentinels, the Brood, Sublime, Sauron, Brainchild, D'ken, Deathbird, Phalanx, , Nimrod, Onslaught, the Reavers, Lady Deathstrike, Mojo, various villains created by Weapon X, a whole raft of meta-humans, etc etc. Red-Skull is now arguably just as much an X-Men villain now as much as he is a Captain America one...
    Last edited by darkmorgado; 01-01-2013 at 02:40 PM.
    "At the end of the day, it's all just storybook stuff" - Me

  14. #29
    Junior Member darkmorgado's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    The next step, imho, would be to open the doors to the JGS to baseline humans.
    Not really, because the school is there to teach people how to use their powers, and how to use them responsibly.

    They are open to aliens and other people that aren't mutants. Danger, for example, isn't a mutant. Juggernaut was an X-Man for a time. Karma is still an X-Man, and she was rendered baseline by M-day. Jubilee is no longer a mutant, she's a vampire. List goes on...

    What use would a baseline human get from a school curriculum that includes classes in "telepathic ethics", or "how to use your powers defensively", and stuff like that?

    Don't even get me started on the implications of a baseline human in P.E lessons in a mutant school...
    Last edited by darkmorgado; 01-01-2013 at 02:35 PM.
    "At the end of the day, it's all just storybook stuff" - Me

  15. #30
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huthaifa View Post
    Being a mutant is so different, than being bit by a bug or caught in a gamma explosion. The paranoia of new breed of human being born. Literally born better than you is scary. The idea of a ten year old being able to blow up a city block with a scream is frightening. Imagine being a mother, and your child is born with devil horns or angel wings. It would drive you crazy.It would have deep religious impact.Is that high school kid just fast or is he superhuman. Is that nerd really brilliant or is he reading my mind. Supr heroes are the absurd. They are a side show or an extreme.They are reality tv.
    I agree with this all in theory. I get the reasoning behind the public hate.

    It's just that in practice, in the Marvel Universe, it's a little bit skewed towards mutant hatred.

    In life, we have people so afraid of illegal immigrants that everyone uttering a word in Spanish is suspect to them. I don't understand how the people in Marvel's little fifedom draw lines and champion one hero while demonizing another.

    I know it'll always be this way in story, but that doesn't make it any less annoying. :p
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

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