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  1. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild_Child View Post
    Most animation in the U.S is for kids.We have some comedy cartoons for adults but the list stops there.There isn't much action cartoons for adults.Why isn't it more popular?
    I think this can be mostly contributed for the early success of things like Walt Disney's animated feature films as well as the early Merrie Melodies cartoons. Blame it on them and studios consistently beating into the brains of generations that "this is how you tell kids stories", big expressive eyes and saturated colors to keep their attention. To put it more simply...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Pothier View Post
    75+ years of cartoons being marketed directly towards children. Duh?
    Sure there have been some who rebelled like Ralph Bakshi but he never really had big box office success with his more adult oriented features. American Pop is an excellent film (which I highly recommend) for example but how are mainstream audiences going to take the guy you brought Fritz the Cat and Cool World to the movie screen seriously?

    When you look at other countries (Japan for example) and see that their culture is less influenced by the above mentioned it gave their animation culture room to grow on its own. For instance you can have animations directed at more mature audiences that range in genre from romantic comedy, action, historical pieces to film noir. No one thinks its odd to tell stories this way and they are profitable for companies to keep making. Notice that American companies have picked up films like Princess Mononoke, Steam Boy and Paprika.

    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Plus when it comes to TV dramas what does animation bring to the table that couldn't be done faster and with less money than live action?
    Its much cheaper to hire "sweat shop" animators from outside the U.S.
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  2. #17
    Nyah! Paradox's Avatar
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    Ood Omega notes:

    Sure there have been some who rebelled like Ralph Bakshi but he never really had big box office success with his more adult oriented features. American Pop is an excellent film (which I highly recommend) for example but how are mainstream audiences going to take the guy you brought Fritz the Cat and Cool World to the movie screen seriously?
    Well, it doesn't help that he has a totally botched version of the first half of Lord of the Rings to his credit. He was an OK storyteller, but frankly a terrible animator. Rotoscoping only gets you so far.
    'Dox out.

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  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Well, it doesn't help that he has a totally botched version of the first half of Lord of the Rings to his credit. He was an OK storyteller, but frankly a terrible animator. Rotoscoping only gets you so far.
    Maybe but mix that with Frank Frazetta character designs and you get Fire and Ice.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by the4thpip View Post
    People like real faces.
    The uncanny valley tends not to apply to traditionally animated toons because the characters are human enough sympathy while avoiding that almost but not quite human quality in some CG animation that comes off as creepy.

  5. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Well, it doesn't help that he has a totally botched version of the first half of Lord of the Rings to his credit. He was an OK storyteller, but frankly a terrible animator. Rotoscoping only gets you so far.
    Fair enough, but American Pop has absolutely gorgeous artwork and where else can you see a heroin addict crashing in a Kansas cornfield while Janis Joplin's Summertime is playing?

    There is another great scene where a WWII soldier finds a piano in the rubble of what once was a German building. He plays this beautiful piece and is unaware that a Nazi soldier is silently watching him. When he finishes the song the German soldier replies "Danke" and then kills him. Its a powerful scene and reminded me of the cliche "Music soothes the savage beast."
    Last edited by Ood Omega; 01-01-2013 at 02:14 PM.
    "It is wrong to assume that art needs the spectator in order to be. The film runs on without any eyes. The spectator cannot exist without it. It ensures his existence." -- James Douglas Morrison

  6. #21
    The Central Sca-rutinizer Pól Rua's Avatar
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    Marjane Satrapi's work has been adapted into animated features at least twice ('Persepolis' and 'The Rabbi's Cat'), the Quay Brothers produced a number of surreal and macabre animation pieces, as has Jan Svankmajar... the Aeon Flux shorts were pretty good - I wasn't as fussed on the ongoing series.
    But the simple fact is that they don't make money. Animation ain't cheap, and if it doesn't pay for itself, it's just a massive hole into which you're shoveling money.

    The best approach, marketing wise, would seem to be to create quality animation which is suitable for all ages (and as a result, can play to an audience of children) while being well executed enough that adults can enjoy them - Avatar, Samurai Jack, Adventure Time...
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  7. #22

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    Because until relatively recently - i.e.the last 15-20 years - most American animation made for television sucked.
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  8. #23
    The Central Sca-rutinizer Pól Rua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wild_Child View Post
    Why isn't animation more popular in the U.S?
    Quote Originally Posted by Wild_Child View Post
    Most animation in the U.S is for kids.We have some comedy cartoons for adults but the list stops there.There isn't much action cartoons for adults.Why isn't it more popular?
    These two questions, of course, aren't the same.
    To the first, the answer is... animation is HUGELY popular.

    The second seems to be - and please forgive me if I'm being presumptuous - based on a kind of very familiar nerd entitlement.
    "Why isn't there more of the stuff that I like? Why don't studios and networks think of ME!? Meeeeeeeeeeeeee!?"
    And the simple answer is that there isn't a big enough market for it to justify the expense involved.

    When the Simpsons came out, a host of adult-oriented animated series were commissioned to cash in on its success, and pretty much all of them failed. This shows that, while there is a market for adult-oriented animation, it isn't big enough to justify the expense in creating it.
    Last edited by Pól Rua; 01-01-2013 at 05:37 PM.
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  9. #24
    Hardcover addict dupont2005's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    I got my hands on the Batman Beyond S1 DVD, and the first episode with Inque has fight scenes - and just scenes with Inque doing her gooey mess powers - that would never work on a live-action TV show, it would cost too much to make it look that good at that speed and with that much action.

    But, of course, the all-ages cartoons have this covered anyway.
    It wouldn't be any cheaper if it were actually animated by Americans, would it?
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  10. #25
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles RB View Post
    I got my hands on the Batman Beyond S1 DVD, and the first episode with Inque has fight scenes - and just scenes with Inque doing her gooey mess powers - that would never work on a live-action TV show, it would cost too much to make it look that good at that speed and with that much action.

    But, of course, the all-ages cartoons have this covered anyway.
    When I think drama, I don't really think Batman Beyond. It had it's dramatic moments but I wouldn't call it a drama.

  11. #26
    Guardian of Love Sailor Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneNecromancer View Post
    It's not just the US to be fair, it's the same in most places abroad. Cartoons are seen as for kids. Even the big animated movies that do make a lot of money often only do so because they're seen as being for kids, so loads of families go watch them.
    That may be true, I'm not too familiar with other countries outside the US and how they handle animation. Well, outside Japan, but that goes without saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ood Omega View Post
    I think this can be mostly contributed for the early success of things like Walt Disney's animated feature films as well as the early Merrie Melodies cartoons. Blame it on them and studios consistently beating into the brains of generations that "this is how you tell kids stories", big expressive eyes and saturated colors to keep their attention. To put it more simply...



    Sure there have been some who rebelled like Ralph Bakshi but he never really had big box office success with his more adult oriented features. American Pop is an excellent film (which I highly recommend) for example but how are mainstream audiences going to take the guy you brought Fritz the Cat and Cool World to the movie screen seriously?

    When you look at other countries (Japan for example) and see that their culture is less influenced by the above mentioned it gave their animation culture room to grow on its own. For instance you can have animations directed at more mature audiences that range in genre from romantic comedy, action, historical pieces to film noir. No one thinks its odd to tell stories this way and they are profitable for companies to keep making. Notice that American companies have picked up films like Princess Mononoke, Steam Boy and Paprika.



    Its much cheaper to hire "sweat shop" animators from outside the U.S.
    Ah, I loved American Pop, too. The writing wasn't particularly good, but the concept was very cool.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pól Rua View Post
    The second seems to be - and please forgive me if I'm being presumptuous - based on a kind of very familiar nerd entitlement.
    "Why isn't there more of the stuff that I like? Why don't studios and networks think of ME!? Meeeeeeeeeeeeee!?"
    And the simple answer is that there isn't a big enough market for it to justify the expense involved.
    It's not like the guy was saying, "Jesus, why don't they don't stop with the kiddy shit and makes something for us adults!?". Seemed like a fairly innocent question to me, maybe that's what he was trying to imply, but it didn't come off that way to me at all.

  12. #27
    The Central Sca-rutinizer Pól Rua's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Moon View Post
    It's not like the guy was saying, "Jesus, why don't they don't stop with the kiddy shit and makes something for us adults!?". Seemed like a fairly innocent question to me, maybe that's what he was trying to imply, but it didn't come off that way to me at all.
    It's because I've heard it so many, many times before.
    It's in the difference between "Why aren't there any cartoons?" - to which the answer is "There are shitloads of them" - and "Why aren't their any action-based, non-comedic adventure cartoons aimed at adults?"

    I've had this conversation so many times.
    "Why aren't there more cartoons?"
    "Adventure Time is stupid popular, so is Avatar, My Little Pony..."
    "Yeah, but those are kids' shows."
    "Okay, what about Venture Brothers, American Dad or Archer?"
    "They're comedic."
    "Okay, so you're NOT asking, why animation isn't more popular in the US, you're asking why a very specific type of animation isn't more popular in the US."

    And the answer is, there's no market for it.
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  13. #28
    Guardian of Love Sailor Moon's Avatar
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    Eh, even that conversation doesn't really seem like entitlement to me, kind of seems like a bit of an overly cynical analysis of it, but that's just me maybe. It could be that's what Wild Child meant, but I guess I'm more into giving the benefit of the doubt to the question on it's face value.

  14. #29
    Nyah! Paradox's Avatar
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    Ood Omega mistakes me:

    Fair enough, but American Pop has absolutely gorgeous artwork and where else can you see a heroin addict crashing in a Kansas cornfield while Janis Joplin's Summertime is playing?

    There is another great scene where a WWII soldier finds a piano in the rubble of what once was a German building. He plays this beautiful piece and is unaware that a Nazi soldier is silently watching him. When he finishes the song the German soldier replies "Danke" and then kills him. Its a powerful scene and reminded me of the cliche "Music soothes the savage beast."
    Oh, American Pop is probably my favorite work of Bakshi's and is a very nicely put together story (accepting the conceit that the main character wrote "Don't Think Twice", etc.). And it is prettier than most of Ralph's stuff. That said, however, the dependence on the rotoscoping makes the animation too visibly jerky to me.
    'Dox out.

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  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
    Oh, American Pop is probably my favorite work of Bakshi's and is a very nicely put together story (accepting the conceit that the main character wrote "Don't Think Twice", etc.). And it is prettier than most of Ralph's stuff. That said, however, the dependence on the rotoscoping makes the animation too visibly jerky to me.
    Ya its not as fluid animation-wise but its probably his best work. At least I can't think of anything he did that affected me in a similar way or was half as good.
    "It is wrong to assume that art needs the spectator in order to be. The film runs on without any eyes. The spectator cannot exist without it. It ensures his existence." -- James Douglas Morrison

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