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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by DeadXMan View Post
    Bond is playing fast and lose with continuity. (Seriouly Sky Fall is a apparently direct Prequel to Dr.No)
    Actually, I think some of the fans have tried to superimpose a continuity to the new movies where none exists, beyond what has been shown in the last three films. Certainly, nothing the producers of the films have said or done suggests they are trying to somehow incorporate the new movies into the old timeline.

    And JJ Star trek is an AltUniverse ( they even said so in the moive) So the Prime universe is exists and can be used
    "Can" being the key word there. I really enjoyed the way they re-set their franchise for the reason you mention, but there's little doubt it was a reboot.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  2. #77
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    The folks in charge of the James Bond and Star Trek franchises might disagree with you.
    Those both worked really well...but there seemed to be a pressing need at the time. I don't feel that way about Marvel, where the continuity is more of a benefit than a burden.

    I guess all the various retellings of classic Marvel origins have soured me on the idea, because none of them carry the same weight as the Lee/Kirby/Ditko originals. These days, every retelling seems to be focused on mapping out all the character relationships and story arcs years in advance. Pete was bitten at OsCorp! Ock works there! Etc, etc.

    Whereas I find Lee's take so inspired, and part of the charm is that he had no idea where he was taking these characters. He wasn't writing AF 15 with ASM 33 or 50 in mind.

    Nowadays it feels like every creator is so focused on where their stories are headed that they can't live in the moment. I don't know that it's a bad thing--it is a sign that creators take their craft much more seriously. But I can't help but feel that we lost something when comics moved that direction.

    It's probably nostalgia!
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  3. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I don't feel that way about Marvel, where the continuity is more of a benefit than a burden.
    I guess I just don't see much of the benefits of the long time continuity any more.
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  4. #79
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    And I think it seems the only reason they are holding to that is so they can continue making that claim -- not because it is doing much of anything for them.
    I think it does a lot for them. We've already got the Ultimate Universe, and it's seen as something of a step-cousin.

    You can kill Spider-Man there and take out NYC and it doesn't really make the same kind of waves as Wolverine switching costumes in the 616!
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  5. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    You can kill Spider-Man there and take out NYC and it doesn't really make the same kind of waves as Wolverine switching costumes in the 616!
    I think that's the viewpoint of someone already deeply invested in the product.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  6. #81
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    I think that's the viewpoint of someone already deeply invested in the product.
    Sure. But ideally, Marvel writes their stories in such a way that they reward long-term investment while inviting new readers.

    I think they do a pretty good job of that on the whole. One can enjoy, say, Waid's fresh take on the Hulk without losing Peter David's run. And Waid's take feels like something different because of everything that came before.

    If Marvel reboots, then everything they do is either too much of a departure from the originals or not enough of one.

    Does anyone think Simonson's Thor run should be scrapped or reworked? But now you can move on and still reference Simonson's work.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Sure. But ideally, Marvel writes their stories in such a way that they reward long-term investment while inviting new readers.

    I think they do a pretty good job of that on the whole. One can enjoy, say, Waid's fresh take on the Hulk without losing Peter David's run. And Waid's take feels like something different because of everything that came before.

    If Marvel reboots, then everything they do is either too much of a departure from the originals or not enough of one.

    Does anyone think Simonson's Thor run should be scrapped or reworked? But now you can move on and still reference Simonson's work.
    Eh, it just isn't all that important to me; but then again, I am used to characters like Sherlock Holmes being periodically re-interpreted.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  8. #83
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Eh, it just isn't all that important to me; but then again, I am used to characters like Sherlock Holmes being periodically re-interpreted.
    Well, like I said, Spider-Man has been periodically reinterpreted without being rebooted in ASM, and the full reboots in USM and elsewhere have never lived up to the original IMO.

    Best of both worlds!
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Well, like I said, Spider-Man has been periodically reinterpreted without being rebooted in ASM, and the full reboots in USM and elsewhere have never lived up to the original IMO.

    Best of both worlds!
    Spider-Man is generally, I find, the challenge; for example, name me another Marvel character whose origin is so tightly woven into the original story.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  10. #85
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Spider-Man is generally, I find, the challenge; for example, name me another Marvel character whose origin is so tightly woven into the original story.
    I don't suppose there's any other hero whose origin rose to the level of AF15.

    But I also tend to think that Spider-Man's history is wonderful, and I wouldn't sacrifice much (if any) of it with the expectation that we'd get something better.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  11. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I don't suppose there's any other hero whose origin rose to the level of AF15.
    There are few, if any, whose origins are so tightly defined and fleshed out, I think. Batman has a wonderful origin, but it has a lot of room for play. Same could be said of Superman.

    Spider-Man is a very particular, tight, specific origin.

    But I also tend to think that Spider-Man's history is wonderful, and I wouldn't sacrifice much (if any) of it with the expectation that we'd get something better.
    Some of it is -- but some of Bond's film history was wonderful, and that got re-booted is a very entertaining and successful way.

    I guess it boils down to the old "execution is all" thought.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  12. #87
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    The folks in charge of the James Bond and Star Trek franchises might disagree with you.
    That's with one series, though. The new Marvel Universe would have a dozen+ separate series, so a reboot would be tougher to handle.

    Besides, the Daniel Craig Bond films could function as prequels to the Connery movies.
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  13. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    That's with one series, though. The new Marvel Universe would have a dozen+ separate series, so a reboot would be tougher to handle.
    Perhaps. That's one of those things where I think it is probably as tough as one makes it.

    Besides, the Daniel Craig Bond films could function as prequels to the Connery movies.
    Be pretty hard pressed to do that one; the advances in technology and the socio/political changes to the world would make that hard to execute, I think.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  14. #89
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Perhaps. That's one of those things where I think it is probably as tough as one makes it.

    Be pretty hard pressed to do that one; the advances in technology and the socio/political changes to the world would make that hard to execute, I think.
    Eh, we're used to it in comics.

    When I was younger, I had an idea for an ambitious reboot which I felt solved a few of the problems with rebooting all these series, mainly the creation of a level of backstory so that it wouldn't be as if a hundred superheroes all popped up at once. Some characters also function well if they've been operating for a while. I liked Spider-Man as a college student, and Reed & Sue as parents.

    My idea was that Marvel should get the rights for every animated series with their characters, and they should then create a shared animated universe, adapting the best comic book stories. You'd need a cable channel that wouldn't be in a position to make any demands, or to reject a Ghost Rider series. Or all of this stuff could be released online.

    After a few years, the animated universe, with every episode available for streaming on Marvel's website, would become the official backstory of the Marvel Comics Universe.

    Meanwhile, writers would be given a few years to tie up all the loose ends in the 616 Universe.
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  15. #90
    Senior Member RyanParkerMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Eh, we're used to it in comics.

    When I was younger, I had an idea for an ambitious reboot which I felt solved a few of the problems with rebooting all these series, mainly the creation of a level of backstory so that it wouldn't be as if a hundred superheroes all popped up at once. Some characters also function well if they've been operating for a while. I liked Spider-Man as a college student, and Reed & Sue as parents.

    My idea was that Marvel should get the rights for every animated series with their characters, and they should then create a shared animated universe, adapting the best comic book stories. You'd need a cable channel that wouldn't be in a position to make any demands, or to reject a Ghost Rider series. Or all of this stuff could be released online.

    After a few years, the animated universe, with every episode available for streaming on Marvel's website, would become the official backstory of the Marvel Comics Universe.

    Meanwhile, writers would be given a few years to tie up all the loose ends in the 616 Universe.
    If done well, that would be so freaking awesome!
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