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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    Spidey is redundant, thats all I am saying. Its not a flaw against his character. But if he were the only hero guarding New York, I suspect he would take his job a bit more seriously.

    And your description of Batman sounds alot more like Bane or Ra's Al Ghul in the Nolan films.
    The Avengers are redundant as far as I can tell in New York anyway. Spidey is THE new york hero, while the Avengers always end up in other places other than fight in there hometown.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    That's not really the point, I think. It's not that Bruce isn't trying to be a better man, it's that him being a better man isn't his central motivating factor. It's irrelevant to his core ethos of fighting CRIME as a whole.
    Well, when you get right down to it, Peter's central motivation wasn't one where he was trying to become a "better" man, either. He was doing what he did out of a sense of guilt.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  3. #48
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Well, when you get right down to it, Peter's central motivation wasn't one where he was trying to become a "better" man, either. He was doing what he did out of a sense of guilt.
    Basically, these things tend to overlap. Revenge, justice, atonement: at the end of the day, Bruce and Peter are all about putting others before themselves.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  4. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Basically, these things tend to overlap. Revenge, justice, atonement: at the end of the day, Bruce and Peter are all about putting others before themselves.
    Or, at least, that's what Bruce tells himself and Peter told himself.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  5. #50
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Or, at least, that's what Bruce tells himself and Peter told himself.
    They're constantly putting themselves in danger for the sake of others: I don't think it's something they're just telling themselves at this point.

    At any rate, if someone wants to pull me from a burning building or stop the Joker from killing me for the wrong reasons, I'm cool with that.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  6. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    They're constantly putting themselves in danger for the sake of others: I don't think it's something they're just telling themselves at this point.
    I see where you're coming from, but I thought one of the nice things done in the last Nolan Batman film was Alfred making note Wayne could be as helpful, if not more helpful, to people if he simply shared his amazing knowledge and resources.

    At any rate, if someone wants to pull me from a burning building or stop the Joker from killing me for the wrong reasons, I'm cool with that.
    Indeed!
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  7. #52
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    I see where you're coming from, but I thought one of the nice things done in the last Nolan Batman film was Alfred making note Wayne could be as helpful, if not more helpful, to people if he simply shared his amazing knowledge and resources.
    But that's overlooking the fact that Bruce does tend to share his knowledge and resources, with the exception of the military grade Batman stuff. And when his reactor falls into the wrong hands, it becomes a nuclear bomb!

    At any rate, I tend to take the superhero narratives at face value. Batman has saved countless lives. Alfred has a dog in that race, as he'd prefer for Bruce to live an 'ordinary' life. By that same token, most military/police/firefighter mothers are extremely proud but would prefer their kids not be in harm's way on a daily basis. In most Batman stories, Alfred accepts that Bruce isn't 'normal.' He's exceptional.

    If Batman lived in 'our' universe, that logic might be more applicable. But if Bill Gates lived in the DC Universe, he'd be a lazy underachiever asshole for not training with ninjas and fighting crime!
    Last edited by David Walton; 01-07-2013 at 05:54 AM.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    But that's overlooking the fact that Bruce does tend to share his knowledge and resources, with the exception of the military grade Batman stuff. And when his reactor falls into the wrong hands, it becomes a nuclear bomb!

    At any rate, I tend to take the superhero narratives at face value. Batman has saved countless lives. Alfred has a dog in that race, as he'd prefer for Bruce to live an 'ordinary' life. But in most Batman stories, he's accepted that Bruce isn't 'normal.' He's exceptional.

    If Batman lived in 'our' universe, that logic might be more applicable. But if Bill Gates lived in the DC Universe, he'd be a lazy underachiever asshole for not training with ninjas and fighting crime!
    Again, I get where you're coming from, but I personally think you're making a different argument, namely what does the individual reader have to do (what beliefs does he or she have to suspend) in order to read the work. If one is simply doing an analysis of the characters in question, then it's possible while both of them think they are behaving altruistically, that helping others is their main motivation, neither is actually being honest with themselves (though the results of their behavior/motivations are still generally considered to be "good").
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  9. #54
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Again, I get where you're coming from, but I personally think you're making a different argument, namely what does the individual reader have to do (what beliefs does he or she have to suspend) in order to read the work. If one is simply doing an analysis of the characters in question, then it's possible while both of them think they are behaving altruistically, that helping others is their main motivation, neither is actually being honest with themselves (though the results of their behavior/motivations are still generally considered to be "good").
    I'm okay with exploring that concept, with the caveat that it's not an excuse to be cynical. C.S. Lewis once argued that civiliation is the virtue that's half hypocrisy and the hypocrisy that's half a virtue.

    But as far as I'm concerned, Bruce uses every available resource to help as many people as possible. That's been shown time and time again, though "Bruce Wayne: Philantrophist of the Night" wouldn't be a very fun comic. But we've seen Bruce fight crime through public renovation projects, as well as paying for Harvey Dent's therapy and giving the Ventroliquist a job in the animated series.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    I'm okay with exploring that concept, with the caveat that it's not an excuse to be cynical. C.S. Lewis once argued that civilization is the virtue that's half hypocrisy and the hypocrisy that's half a virtue.

    But as far as I'm concerned, Bruce uses every available resource to help as many people as possible. That's been shown time and time again, though "Bruce Wayne: Philantrophist of the Night" wouldn't be a very fun comic. But we've seen Bruce fight crime through public renovation projects, as well as paying for Harvey Dent's therapy and giving the Ventroliquist a job in the animated series.
    I don't know if it's cynical to think about why someone might be doing something.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  11. #56
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    I don't know if it's cynical to think about why someone might be doing something.
    Depends on how far you take it! There have been people on this very board who have argued that Peter lives a horrible life and pretty much deserves to suffer and die for it.

    It doesn't seem so unreasonable to acknowledge that Peter really does believe that "with great power must also come great responsbility" and he lives that out to the best of his ability.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  12. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Depends on how far you take it! There have been people on this very board who have argued that Peter lives a horrible life and pretty much deserves to suffer and die for it.
    Aye, I would agree that's taking the notion past the point where the evidence supports the conclusion.

    It doesn't seem so unreasonable to acknowledge that Peter really does believe that "with great power must also come great responsibility" and he lives that out to the best of his ability.
    Agreed, but I also don't think it's unreasonable for those who believe that is simply how he justifies what he is doing to himself. A lot of Peter's behavior (and Bruce's as well, to a larger degree) could really be seen as self destructive, too.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    And your description of Batman sounds alot more like Bane or Ra's Al Ghul in the Nolan films.
    Bruce pretty much adopted their philosophies- "Anything goes to fulfill my agenda!" Including unethical city wide communication system hacking. Also, civilians of Gotham were annoying and useless turds in the Nolan movies, especially in TDKR. Kind of was pulling for Bane and Talia in the end there.

  14. #59

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    Well, you have a good point there. But if so, then their methods differ considerably. Ra's wants to just hit the big reset button on Gotham, whereas Bruce wants to reform it a piece at a time. Citizens and families living in Gotham would likely prefer the Bruce way.

    But yeah, he's a little self-righteous. But then so is Superman and so are most heroes. There are entire comic series about the self-righteousness of all this hero stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Confuzzled Mutie View Post
    Bruce pretty much adopted their philosophies- "Anything goes to fulfill my agenda!" Including unethical city wide communication system hacking. Also, civilians of Gotham were annoying and useless turds in the Nolan movies, especially in TDKR. Kind of was pulling for Bane and Talia in the end there.
    Incidentally, I think it is no mistake that the citizens of Gotham are shown that way in the Nolan films. Gotham as a corrupt and unworthy place with very few bright spots. Ra's is right (in Batman Begins)! Gotham is essentially an unsavable city. Bruce doesn't care, he still wants to save it and everyone in it. Even Joker, as it turns out!

    A common theme of both Batman and Spider-Man is that no one has to earn their protection.
    Last edited by Scott Taylor; 01-07-2013 at 04:42 PM.
    Perfect humility dispenses with modesty.

  15. #60
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Well, when you get right down to it, Peter's central motivation wasn't one where he was trying to become a "better" man, either. He was doing what he did out of a sense of guilt.
    I think that's a common mistake in Spider-Man's ethos. Peter isn't motivated by Guilt. He's motivated by responsibility. He feels guilty that he failed to live up to his responsibilities and be a good man like Uncle Ben taught him and paid a terrible price for it. But it's more than just guilt. It's more than just a selfish compulsion. He's a hero, not all self-centered.
    When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.-C.S.Lewis

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