BATMAN INCORPORATED #6 Preview/Discussion

[Cooped]

Yeah, that was my initial suspicion; however as you say GM has pretty explicitly said that he is done with the Adapter/Hurt/Darkseid thing. Unless he is deliberately misinforming us? I'm not sure that I subscribe myself to Talia being under the influence of another, but it got me thinking when earlier in this thread someone commented that Morrison has written Talia as one dimensional, which prompted me to think 'what if that was on purpose???'
Who knows; I have literally no idea how the pieces are all going to fit together in the end, and can't even speculate on the significance of 666 Batman and the Heretic etc...

I still don't trust the Hood...I mean, I know that originally he was a double agent in volume 1, but was then betrayed by 'Matron', but that doesn't mean he still isn't a mole. And I can't work out why Bruce would bring in the Wingman persona (if only to save the original Wingman's reputation?) and why Jason had to be wingman.

[DrSimonHurt]

Not that,I had no problem with him in the White House.I was referring to the deal he made with Damian,what exactly can he offer? we know he's NOT the devil,we know that the box/casket had nothing in it,it feels weak IMO.

In the 666 future, we see that he's granting people 'immortality' and all sorts of gifts. In the present, he had empty promises, while believing Barbatos was real.

In reality, it seems that he has taken full advantage of Talia's human genetics experiments and is using science as a way to manifest his 'supernatural' influence. That's exactly what Darkseid is, as well(science and supernatural combined, as all New Gods are). He's offering that technology to people who cooperate with him. That is why Lane was so tough in #666.

It is likely that he has given up on Barbatos, knows of Darkseid, or just believes that Talia is close to an evil God, so he worships one of them instead. He's a moron who still has a point of view that is hundreds of years out of date, so powerful technology looks like witchcraft...At least in his interpretation.

[BarryAllen5K]

What number is the very last issue? Will it go to #10 or #12???

Thanks!

[LoneNecromancer]

What number is the very last issue? Will it go to #10 or #12???

Thanks!

#12, as far as I'm aware. The #0 was a sort of additional thing.

[MykeHavoc]

Who knows at this point. Action has been extended an issue, plus 17 is double-sized and we also got the zero issue. Wouldn't surprise me if we got a double-size issue 13 as a wrap-up to close out Morrison's entire Batman run.

[Quinnhop]

High on a hill was a lonely goatherd~

The Ten Oxherding Pictures. And, and*.
The pictures, poems and short pieces of prose tell how the student ventures into the wilderness in his search for "the Bull" (or "Ox"; a common metaphor for enlightenment, or the true self, or simply a regular human being), and how his efforts prove fruitless at first. Undeterred, he keeps searching and eventually finds footprints on a riverbank. When he sees the bull for the first time he is amazed by the splendour of its features ('empty and marvellous' is a well known phrase used to describe the perception of Buddha nature). However, the student has not tamed the bull, and must work hard to bring it under control. Eventually he reaches the highest Enlightenment, returns to the world and 'everyone I look upon becomes enlightened'.

[. . .]

*The second link references Ken Wilber, the creator of Integral Theory. I read his book Sex, Ecology, Spirituality and a couple of others after Morrison mentioned the influence of Wilber's Theory of Everything on his current work. It's amazing stuff. Really, some potentially life-changing reading. It's also led me to read a bunch of stuff on Spiral Dynamics. At NYCC this year, I asked Morrison if he was playing on the whole/hole with Hurt/The Hyper-Adapter standing for the latter ("the hole in things") and Batman Incorporated standing for the former (a holistic approach to being Batman). I asked if Inc was exploring Bruce's realization at the end of The Return of Bruce Wayne: the realization that he's "never been alone" (the "first truth" about Batman)--as a counter to RIP showing the hole in his heart. He said it wasn't intentional but that it was all there, which, to be fair, is the case with a lot of his work. You can draw tons of connections, but this one felt legitimate. He seemed to think so too and another guy in the audience said he loved the question. Not to toot my own horn, lol, but it was pretty awesome. CBR's write-up of the panel didn't include it. I don't blame them, it was a really specific question (I got into "La Bas" and shit). But it was awesome to get to ask Morrison and get such a positive response. Highly recommend checking out SES and other Integral Theory stuff if you're enjoying Inc.

--

Talia changed it from the Bull/Ox to the Goat to keep in line with all of her "goat/scapegoat" imagery. If the analogy is being directed at Bruce, then he's the goatherd and Batman/Barbatos is the goat/bull. If the analogy is about Damian, then I imagine the goat/bull is actually Talia/the "Al Ghul" legacy (Al Ghul = "The Devil/Demon" + Goat's being directly associated with Satan). But as we know Bruce has already incorporated and transcended his demon/tulpa/evil twin (Barbatos/Hurt) and come out stronger for it (Batman, and now Batman Inc), so I keep leaning towards this all being about breaking his "wholeness." If he exiles Damian, he's denying a future aspect of the Batman instead of incorporating it.

"The Demon Star at zenith" from Batman #666 probably should've made sense in a new way back when Leviathan Strikes confirmed it was Talia with the whole Algol binary star mention, but it didn't until just now. At first it pointed toward the "apostate angel" and the inverted pentagram:

"A reversed pentagram, with two points projecting upwards, is a symbol of evil and attracts sinister forces because it overturns the proper order of things and demonstrates the triumph of matter over spirit. It is the goat of lust attacking the heavens with its horns, a sign execrated by initiates."

"The flaming star, which, when turned upside down, is the hierolgyphic [sic] sign of the goat of Black Magic, whose head may be drawn in the star, the two horns at the top, the ears to the right and left, the beard at the bottom. It is the sign of antagonism and fatality. It is the goat of lust attacking the heavens with its horns."

But Morrison was able to incorporate (Algol/"Demon Star"/Talia) and transcend his original meaning (Michael Lane/the 3rd Ghost) into something new: Leviathan. He's doing exactly what Talia's been doing the entire time (taking someone else's story/mythology and making her own meaning out of it). The way Talia effectively turned Jezebel Jet, Hurt, the Black Glove, The Circus of Strange, Spyral, Dedalus, etc. into her pawns just by being aware of them and participating with them (incorporate) but also using them to express/enact something even bigger (transcend). This is the basis of holarchal development (incorporate and transcend, the way the human body incorporates and transcends its constituent cells).

[. . .]

This series is beautiful because it's the complete integration and transcendence of Morrison's run on Batman, starting from Batman and Son and including everything since. In the same way that Morrison's Batman run began as a holonic approach to the Batman mythology, Incorporated is taking all of those considerations and finding a way to incorporate Morrison's incorporation into a complete whole. The way the acorn must be fully developed before the oak can develop from it. Morrison has spent the last six years carving out his acorn, now he's establishing the oak. And whoever comes next will have to take that oak and create their own acorn from it. (That's the main problem with Snyder's run, is it can't fully integrate itself with Morrison's--and Morrison has worked so hard to integrate his own work into the Bat Mythos as a whole that Snyder comes off as the one missing a beat. The New 52 didn't help either writer in this regard, but Morrison's approach is one of trans-continuity and Snyder's is not--not yet at least--so for Morrison it makes no difference, while for Snyder it makes his work seem more patchwork than quilt, if that makes sense. Both are great, but Snyder will need to find a way to incorporate some of what Morrison's done to give us the full effect. His Black Mirror did exactly that, fitting in intimately with Batman and Robin, but his Batman hasn't been able to yet.)

It's really an exercise in myth-making with the intention of incorporating what was already given to create a foundation, and then re-incorporating everything post-foundation with the foundation to give us a solid and definitive insight into the emergent mythos. This is Batman's Entire History + Morrison's Batman = ??? and we're witnessing the emergence/establishment of that ??? (which will in turn become a part to the next writer's take on the Bat-Mythos whole.

Still the most exciting time to be a Batman fan.

Thesis (Bat-Mythos), Antithesis (Morrison), Synthesis (Incorporated).

It's the beauty of sequential storytelling, only now made self-aware.

'For me, the phrase would be: “Transcend and Include.”'

When asked: "As this issue begins, you have Superman fighting a version of Doomsday, a recreation of a famous issue from the early ’90s. In your book Supergods, you refer to that era as comic’s Dark Age, and I get the sense from your work on Action Comics and on the Batman books that you’re trying to bring back some of the pre-Dark Age sensibility to these mainstream comics."

So yeah, I stand by the firm belief that Incorporated is all about epitomizing that essential aspect of Morrison's storytelling technique: transcend and include/incorporate, accounting for everything that has been and using it to create what comes next. It's not linear but holographic. It uses the past strands of linearity, where "canon" is one strand, the Adam West show is another strand, and Son of the Demon is another strand, etc., and finds a way to account for them all, taking elements from both the x and y axis and tweaking them/connecting the dots between them into a coherent shape.

I feel stupid for thinking he would bring Damian back to life, all of this considered. Batman is based on the "transcend and include" concept as applied to Death. His parents were killed but he couldn't move past that without finding a way to incorporate it into himself. Otherwise, like Morrison has said before, you'd end up with someone truly crazy--someone dissociated from one of the defining moments of their life. But by incorporating their deaths into who he is, Batman was able to transcend the tragedy/hurt of their deaths and become something better for it: the goddamned Batman. Damian's death is a reprise of his parents' deaths. And we know from before, Batman learns from Death. He conquers Death, not literally (because then he would be Superman) but metaphorically, and emerges stronger/better for it.

Sorry, I just really think the notion of "transcend and include" is essential to any reading of his Batman run, Incorporated chief amongst.

[jgiannantoni05]

'For me, the phrase would be: “Transcend and Include.”'

I feel stupid for thinking he would bring Damian back to life, all of this considered. Batman is based on the "transcend and include" concept as applied to Death. His parents were killed but he couldn't move past that without finding a way to incorporate it into himself. Otherwise, like Morrison has said before, you'd end up with someone truly crazy--someone dissociated from one of the defining moments of their life. But by incorporating their deaths into who he is, Batman was able to transcend the tragedy/hurt of their deaths and become something better for it: the goddamned Batman. Damian's death is a reprise of his parents' deaths. And we know from before, Batman learns from Death. He conquers Death, not literally (because then he would be Superman) but metaphorically, and emerges stronger/better for it.

Sorry, I just really think the notion of "transcend and include" is essential to any reading of his Batman run, Incorporated chief amongst.

Yea, Morrison kinda confirms in the latest Newsarama interview that this as a sound reading. Morrison: "For me, Batman fights death, and Superman fights the impossible."

Don't know if you noticed that. But, yea, I never heard Morrison put it that way. And it's a key idea.

[Quinnhop]

Yea, Morrison kinda confirms in the latest Newsarama interview that this as a sound reading. Morrison: "For me, Batman fights death, and Superman fights the impossible."

Don't know if you noticed that. But, yea, I never heard Morrison put it that way. And it's a key idea.

Thanks. :) Yeah, I did read that. Sorry, I should've mentioned it. I loved that line. It really gets to the core of both characters.