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  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by csis View Post
    Also, I just noticed upon re-reading that the next issue is called "the Belly of the Whale," which (if I recall correctly) is what the heretic said he was born in. So I'm thinking we might get to find out who the Heretic is next issue.
    Yeah.

    The Whale = Leviathan.

    The "belly of the whale" is typically associated with the womb--specifically a second, spiritual womb--and rebirth (not birth).

    I expect we'll find out that Talia hyper-aged the Damian clone and that the entire 666 universe was basically a simulation to create her perfect little monster. Or, well... I don't expect it, but it'd be cool. lol

    More likely, we'll return to the genetic labs from "Batman: The Return" and learn about the facility that was responsible for the monster's creation.

    OH SHIT.

    I just realized that another typical association with the belly of the whale is the boat = the coffin (see Hamlet). Who was the last person we saw in a coffin? That's right:

    Simon Hurt.

    It'd certainly be interesting if Talia rescued Hurt and became his kind of spiritual mother. It would give her access to the Hyper-Adapter, as well.

    But since Morrison has played with hypertime simulations before (New X-Men, The World), I wouldn't be entirely surprised if, again, 666 was some kind of simulation for raising the clone.

    lol Who knows... It'll be what it'll be. So many ways it could go.
    Last edited by Quinnhop; 01-04-2013 at 11:52 AM.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnhop View Post
    Yeah.

    The Whale = Leviathan.

    The "belly of the whale" is typically associated with the womb--specifically a second, spiritual womb--and rebirth (not birth).

    I expect we'll find out that Talia hyper-aged the Damian clone and that the entire 666 universe was basically a simulation to create her perfect little monster. Or, well... I don't expect it, but it'd be cool. lol
    Yeah, I think Morrison is suggesting that a whale, the largest mammal on earth, is the only living thing able to grow a full sized human in its womb. The whale would have everything necessary for a fetus to grow into a huge adult. So the whale was a surrogate mother, which is why the Heretic is a 6"5" 18 month old.

  3. #168
    Unreasonably Opinionated Conway's Avatar
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    After reading the last couple pages of this thread I'm more confused than I was reading it. Yeah, Talia is rambling like she's drugged, and her big goon is obviously in a bat-suit. Morrison has some infatuation with a Goat, and I'd be really surprised if we don't see Goat-Boy again soon.

    Anyway, it's still interesting when there is interaction between the characters, but it feels lackluster. Like he's just kind of marching through his story.

  4. #169
    Senior Member csis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quinnhop View Post
    Yeah.

    The Whale = Leviathan.

    The "belly of the whale" is typically associated with the womb--specifically a second, spiritual womb--and rebirth (not birth).

    I expect we'll find out that Talia hyper-aged the Damian clone and that the entire 666 universe was basically a simulation to create her perfect little monster. Or, well... I don't expect it, but it'd be cool. lol
    I don't think that will end up being true. Future Damian Batman is flawed, sure, but he isn't evil. He isn't a character who would laugh while murdering a bunch of people by hanging them, as we see the Heretic do. I don't doubt that the Heretic is another son of Talia and Bruce, perhaps artificially aged, but I don't see it being future Damian.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post
    Yeah, I think Morrison is suggesting that a whale, the largest mammal on earth, is the only living thing able to grow a full sized human in its womb. The whale would have everything necessary for a fetus to grow into a huge adult. So the whale was a surrogate mother, which is why the Heretic is a 6"5" 18 month old.
    Right. There's also the idea of Pinocchio and wanting to be a "real boy" so the idea of him being some monster born, literally, from the womb of a giant whale--from virtual/conceptual to literal, through a messed up whale pregnancy, would certainly fit with the crazy Frankenstein's monster aspects of the Heretic.

    Quote Originally Posted by csis View Post
    I don't think that will end up being true. Future Damian Batman is flawed, sure, but he isn't evil. He isn't a character who would laugh while murdering a bunch of people by hanging them, as we see the Heretic do. I don't doubt that the Heretic is another son of Talia and Bruce, perhaps artificially aged, but I don't see it being future Damian.
    No, you're right.

  6. #171
    Junior Member SicSexSix's Avatar
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    That's an excellent analysis, and I do agree with all of it except the identity of the Third Batman that Damian killed in 666. At this point, I think it could go either way & turn out to be Lane or Heretic. I'm still leaning more towards Lane, because first & foremost, the physical evidence presented: The skin around his eyes is not caucasian, yes, it could turn out to be discolored from scarring, but it could also be an aged black guy under there. Second bit of physical evidence is the size. Heretic is HUGE, whereas the guy fighting Damian is average size. His dialogue needs to be taken into account as well. He does say "Sons of the same father", which would support your theory, but he could also mean it in a symbolic sense. "Batman failed to kill me when he had the chance", could be a reference to one of the encounters between Bruce & Lane (or it could be the inevitable fight between Bruce & Heretic). The religious implications are very much in line with Lane, and when he talks about how he prayed & prayed "until HE came...", he seems to be describing Dr. Hurt/Barbatos/Hyper Adapter, who we all already know was responsible for Lane to begin with. The rest of his speech to Damian about joining him as his soldier is also very reminiscent of things Hurt said to Bruce. I'm almost 100% certain that it will turn out to be one or the other, but what I'm leaning more towards is Damian killed Lane in 666 and we still haven't seen the Heretic in that era yet. Everything else you said though man, spot on, awesome post :)

    That aside, completing Heretic's growth in a whale's belly sure does explain his monstrous size, but I don't know if it'd be sufficient enough to bring him into adulthood. I'm still stuck on the idea that Talia managed to get a hold of Prof. Nichol's time travel device and basically went into the future to bring the Heretic back as an adult. Nichols was put into this story for a purpose, either as misdirection or to play a role he has yet to play (or his technology rather).

  7. #172
    Senior Member csis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicSexSix View Post

    That aside, completing Heretic's growth in a whale's belly sure does explain his monstrous size, but I don't know if it'd be sufficient enough to bring him into adulthood. I'm still stuck on the idea that Talia managed to get a hold of Prof. Nichol's time travel device and basically went into the future to bring the Heretic back as an adult. Nichols was put into this story for a purpose, either as misdirection or to play a role he has yet to play (or his technology rather).
    Bear in mind that the Heretic doesn't have to be an adult. He's enormous, but that could easily be the result of some kind of hormone treatment or other comic book science-y thing, and he's really just an enormous violent child in a batsuit.

  8. #173
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicSexSix View Post
    I think Lane just resumed his Bat role in the 666-verse, and that was who Damian killed, the Heretic is yet to be seen in that world. The devil that Lane-Bat referred to was Dr. Hurt. Bruce said the third Batman who destroyed Gotham was Damian, and in a way, it was, that is if I'm right about the Heretic being an aged Damian clone. Lane was just subterfuge to throw us all off, and Damian broke his neck.
    That was my initial impression, but how can Lane be alive in the 666 future? Wouldn't he be dead? The fact that Damian is so much older proves that a long time has passed, no?
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

    "Pym biting Blobs head off seems like something that would have happened when i was ten years old and playing with action figures."

    "i always assumed that [the blob] had the same powers as his 616 counterpart because, if simply being a huge fat guy was enough to be considered a mutant then there sure are a lot of mutants in 'real life'. "

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJM View Post
    He is her son and Batman's he's most likely another child made with Bruce and Talia's DNA, as we saw in Batman And Robin #12.

    Preview looks great, very much looking forward to this. Slightly concerned they need a fill-in artist though to be honest, i'd rather it was delayed.
    How do we know that is who it is? That could just be a red herring. Also, it would be odd for Talia to have aged a clone that quickly, but I suppose that could be a comic universe. They did it with Superboy, after all.
    For more news, reviews, and commentary for the entire Bat Family, check out Batwatch

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choppa View Post
    That was my initial impression, but how can Lane be alive in the 666 future? Wouldn't he be dead? The fact that Damian is so much older proves that a long time has passed, no?
    I think it's supposed to be about 14 years in the future. Damian looks to be in his late 20s, but battled. Note that he still has Alfred the cat, who is probably pretty old but alive. Barbara, who is 21 right now looks to be in her late 30s in the recent future issue. Pyg was also around in #666, having recently been killed. He is probably in his 30's in the present stories, which places him in his 50's upon his death. It mostly adds up.

    Quote Originally Posted by BatWatch View Post
    How do we know that is who it is? That could just be a red herring. Also, it would be odd for Talia to have aged a clone that quickly, but I suppose that could be a comic universe. They did it with Superboy, after all.
    Yeah, that's not an issue or anything. Advanced aging in cloning is actually a proven science, dealing with shortened telomeres. Talia would just need to tamper with his telomeres and add hormone therapy to turn him into a pseudo-adult. You can clone a cow and age it to adult hood quickly that way. In the case of the Heretic and his fiction, Talia's womb is simply too small for this, so she used a Whale.

    Take note that Heretic's speech still seems child-like.
    Last edited by DrSimonHurt; 01-04-2013 at 01:16 PM.

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  12. #177
    Senior Member Bookem Danno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post
    Here we go.

    The appearance of threes in Morrison's Batman, again. I will highlight key themes with asterisks...

    More cool input to digest. Thnks!

  13. #178
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    Rikdad is a great source for this, but I don't know if he's still reading.

  14. #179
    Senior Member csis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post


    Yeah, that's not an issue or anything. Advanced aging in cloning is actually a proven science, dealing with shortened telomeres. Talia would just need to tamper with his telomeres and add hormone therapy to turn him into a pseudo-adult. You can clone a cow and age it to adult hood quickly that way. In the case of the Heretic and his fiction, Talia's womb is simply too small for this, so she used a Whale.

    Take note that Heretic's speech still seems child-like.

    I had noticed that about the Heretic's speech as well. Particularly with the "I thought I was your son" bit in one of the recent issues. My money is on the Heretic being the clone we saw in Batman and Robin. I expect this will make things more complicated for Bruce, because he will have to save Gotham, protect Damian, and also somehow deal with the Heretic who (if he is that clone) will also be Bruce's son, genetically, so I expect Bruce will have the feeling that he also needs to save the Heretic, somehow.

  15. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    Btw i wanted to say that the art wasnt as good as it used to be. And i will never be able to stomach Burnham's sketchy pencil work. It's as if he's using old pencils that cant draw clean lines.

    And he's really trying to crease his way into becoming a new Quitely.
    That's sketchy INK work, bucko! I go right from blue pencils to inking. No traditional "pencils" to be found.

    Nothing's to everyone's taste, but I'm sorry you don't like it. I'm certainly trying hard!

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