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  1. #151
    Senior Member darkseidpwns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Jim View Post
    So what? The issues still shipped on time, didn't they? What does this have to do with the title supposedly being "delayed"? I don't get it.
    Lol I have no problem with the schedule.

  2. #152
    Senior Member Bookem Danno's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatWatch View Post
    Does anybody have any good theories as to the significance of the goat herder? I looked it up, but I still did not come up with any clear answers. I know the parable is about attaining and spreading enlightenment, yet Batman does not seem to attain enlightenment at any point.

    Beyond that, I am very curious what is going on with Talia. I thought Morrison had just twisted her personality to suit his story, but Batman specifically mentions that she is acting strangely. Something is happening to her.

    The BatWatch review is up. I would post a link, but I can't figure out how to make them work.

    I got the impression that it is a REAL WORLD myth cleverly worked into the issue's script - with varied success.

    Quote Originally Posted by Choppa View Post
    I gotta read it again because now I'm confusing all my theories with others' speculations.

    I will just leave with this:

    Hawk eye.

    Quote Originally Posted by jgiannantoni05 View Post
    I cannot say enough how much I love all the detective work Morrison creates for the reader. The ultimate detective story is this entire long run. So many little and grand mysteries and dense overlapping interlocking narratives and themes.

    Grant's stories create the most wonderful frustration, my computer brain overloads trying to "get it" all.

    I can REALLY appreciate this if thats (seems obviously) the intention but on the other hand this is extremely detracting, with its inherent frustration, if you don't get the complete story (set of clues) in one package. Having to jump and find previous runs and varying companion issues makes it an unfair challenge to readers of limited time and resources. And footnoting is abysmal these days in comics. This will clearly be better to read in a collected version of TPB form. Unfortunately, my preference is the quickfix of a monthly serial and the frustration has led to a degree of boredom. Unfrortunately.

    A website with good summary or annotated analysis from Day 1 of this plot might help me look forward to the next issue more.

  3. #153
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    So did Knight die or not? I couldnt tell. Morrison better not have killed one of the best characters in Inc.

  4. #154
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    So did Knight die or not? I couldnt tell. Morrison better not have killed one of the best characters in Inc.
    Between the big KRAAKK, and the way the body swings in the following panel, the guy seems either dead or paraplegic.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  5. #155
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bookem Danno View Post


    Hawk eye.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bookem Danno View Post

    I can REALLY appreciate this if thats (seems obviously) the intention but on the other hand this is extremely detracting, with its inherent frustration, if you don't get the complete story (set of clues) in one package. Having to jump and find previous runs and varying companion issues makes it an unfair challenge to readers of limited time and resources. And footnoting is abysmal these days in comics. This will clearly be better to read in a collected version of TPB form. Unfortunately, my preference is the quickfix of a monthly serial and the frustration has led to a degree of boredom. Unfrortunately.

    A website with good summary or annotated analysis from Day 1 of this plot might help me look forward to the next issue more.
    A quick google search turns up a bunch of sites.

    https://sites.google.com/site/deepsp...n-incorporated

    http://morrisonbatman.blogspot.com/

    http://rikdad.blogspot.com/

    http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.c...h/label/m-bats

    http://retrowarbird.blogspot.com/
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

    "Pym biting Blobs head off seems like something that would have happened when i was ten years old and playing with action figures."

    "i always assumed that [the blob] had the same powers as his 616 counterpart because, if simply being a huge fat guy was enough to be considered a mutant then there sure are a lot of mutants in 'real life'. "

  6. #156
    Senior Member csis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Hurt View Post
    So did Knight die or not? I couldnt tell. Morrison better not have killed one of the best characters in Inc.
    It certainly looks like it. First there was the crack, probably signifying Knight's neck breaking, and if you look in subsequent panels where the Heretic is holding him by the neck, his head seems to be drooping at impossible angles for someone who is alive.

    It's sad, but not too surprising. Also, I just noticed upon re-reading that the next issue is called "the Belly of the Whale," which (if I recall correctly) is what the heretic said he was born in. So I'm thinking we might get to find out who the Heretic is next issue.

  7. #157
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Btw i wanted to say that the art wasnt as good as it used to be. And i will never be able to stomach Burnham's sketchy pencil work. It's as if he's using old pencils that cant draw clean lines.

    And he's really trying to crease his way into becoming a new Quitely.

  8. #158
    Veteran Member Dr. Hurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auguste Dupin View Post
    Between the big KRAAKK, and the way the body swings in the following panel, the guy seems either dead or paraplegic.
    Quote Originally Posted by csis View Post
    It certainly looks like it. First there was the crack, probably signifying Knight's neck breaking, and if you look in subsequent panels where the Heretic is holding him by the neck, his head seems to be drooping at impossible angles for someone who is alive.

    It's sad, but not too surprising. Also, I just noticed upon re-reading that the next issue is called "the Belly of the Whale," which (if I recall correctly) is what the heretic said he was born in. So I'm thinking we might get to find out who the Heretic is next issue.
    God ****ing damnit Grant! You were supposed to kill Barbara or Jason! Not one of the good characters! Jesus Christ!

  9. #159
    Junior Member SicSexSix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retro315 View Post
    Goats in their Gotham. It was something Professor Pyg said at one point that drew a line between Doctor Hurt and all his Satanic operations (the demon star of Baphomet is a goat's head) in Gotham itself (Which means "Goat Home".) but which we later realized has always also been linked to Al Ghul, Algol, the Eye of the Gorgon star in the constellation of Perseus, and so anything through Talia is Satanic as well - so a fusion between Bruce's ancestry and Talia's ancestry is literally the most Satanic child ever. Goats represent villains, but also scapegoats - which is linking the blame-game that say, two estranged parents might play with one another, as well as how all the rogues' gallery of villains are scapegoats for Batman to play out his patronizing fantasies upon.

    It's a city full of devils and villains. But Bruce through his travels in the Far East and Buddhist studies achieved a level of enlightenment. Batman doesn't kill his devils or villains, he sends them to an Asylum for rehabilitation - he tries to prove that "his way" is the right way, even to the worst criminals like Joker. That's definitely an attempt to spread enlightened thinking, despite the fact that it's comics and it'll never work.

    So in other words ... Talia playing mindgames.
    Great post. Prof. Pyg's line came to mind as I was reading it too. Just to add one more layer to what you put down, bats often feed on goats ;-)

  10. #160
    Senior Member AJM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choppa View Post
    I gotta read it again because now I'm confusing all my theories with others' speculations.

    I will just leave with this:

    Confused again! Who knows. I sincerely hope the final answer is satisfying, although i suspect it may require some vague retconning.

  11. #161
    Junior Member SicSexSix's Avatar
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    I think Lane just resumed his Bat role in the 666-verse, and that was who Damian killed, the Heretic is yet to be seen in that world. The devil that Lane-Bat referred to was Dr. Hurt. Bruce said the third Batman who destroyed Gotham was Damian, and in a way, it was, that is if I'm right about the Heretic being an aged Damian clone. Lane was just subterfuge to throw us all off, and Damian broke his neck.

  12. #162
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    Here we go.

    The appearance of threes in Morrison's Batman, again. I will highlight key themes with asterisks.

    Michael Lane was the original "Third Batman"(*). He was a police officer trained by Dr Hurt's experiment to become a new Batman, along with the first two. To give Lane that extra kick, his family was killed by satanists(*). Lane would be the first to wear the costume featuring the mouthguard, goggles, raised shoulder points, etc The satanic Batman. No doubt that Hurt, working with Talia, was responsible for those 'satanists' who killed his family. Making a better Batmobile.

    Lane would disappear after RIP and resurface as Azrael for a bit(may be retconned, moving on).

    The next person to wear a version of this costume would be Jason Todd in Battle for the Cowl. A color swap here and there and you have the Third Batman again. Note that Jason Todd's current existence is the fault of Talia Al Ghul(*) dipping him into the Lazarus Pit. Even though that is partly retcon due to the New 52, note that Jason even claimed that was the reason he came back from the dead way back in Batman and Robin(When he yelled at Dick for not bringing Bruce back in the same manner, leading into the Blackest Knight issue), so it looks like Morrison was already ignoring the "Superboy Prime Punch" years before the reboot removed it. He wanted to place emphasis on Talia's role in resurrecting Jason, alone.

    Also in that regard, note that Jason is now suddenly back in Morrison's story. There's a reason for that. In Batman Incorporated #6, Dick Grayson also makes mention of dialogue Jason said while wearing that Third Batman costume "Batman is dead", which apparently still upsets Damian. Morrison wanted to confirm for us that Jason's stint as the third Batman in Battle for the Cowl is still canon, as it is important to this story.

    In final regards to Battle for the Cowl, Jason was also the the FIRST to attempt to replace Bruce. Problem is, the third(*)(Dick Grayson) to appear actually took the mantle(Order: Jason, Tim, Dick). Following Dick, you have Bruce back as Batman, then Damian as Batman in the future. Damian is the third(*) person to wear the Bat costume after Dick took over.

    So far, we have two "Third Batman" types who are sort of "evil" Batmans(Lane, Jason), then two examples of a third Batman being heroic(Dick, Damian).

    Now this leads us to the future. The Heretic seems to be Talia's third(*) attempt at creating an evil Batman. The future satanic(*) Batman looks to be wearing a variation of the same costume we saw Lane and Jason wear. That is indeed the Heretic in the future, not Lane. Lane was the first, but he's gone. It's a mantle. Talia is trying to create her perfect anti-Batman, one who can match Bruce.

    She started with a cop and recreated Bruce's origin in a sense. Tragic family loss. He didn't work. Then she took Bruce's own adopted son and tried to craft him into Batman, after involving herself in events that led to Bruce's 'death'. He didn't work. Thirdly, she will take his literal genetic son and raise him in tragedy and chaos, a world deprived of affection(We're getting into Pyg and Harlow themes with the Heretic right here) to create the perfect Anti-Batman. Damian is a wild card and a test subject for what needs to be done to make the Heretic work. She sees the guidance and affection Bruce gives to him, and literally deprives it from the Heretic. With each attempt, she basically started with a total stranger in a controlled situation, and ended up settling with a person of Batman's own DNA but none of his compassion.

    Lane: Complete stranger in a controlled situation with great training. Meant to be a sort of memetic clone of Bruce Wayne pushed over the edge. Did not work out.
    Jason: Adopted son of Bruce Wayne. Experienced great amounts of loss, and also had incredible training. Still did not work out because Jason still shares a lot of Bruce's personal values.
    Heretic: Literal son of Bruce Wayne(And Talia). Incredible strength and training. Extremely powerful reflexes. Completely deprived of compassion and positive human interaction. The perfect outcome. All of Bruce's strength and abilities and none of his heart.

    Talia realized the weak link was compassion. Family. The emotional weight of tragedy is a result of compassion. She wants a better Batman to suit her needs and remove everything Bruce Wayne loves.

    So Lane, Jason, and Heretic are all "Third Batman"(*) types created by Talia and her influence. Dick and Damian are third Batmen, but in a positive way. Damian is not only the third Batman after Dick, but also the third(*) Robin after Dick.

    Lots of thirds.

    I used to think that Lane was the third Batman in the present and future, given long life by his pact with Hurt. I think the real story is that the mantle, just like Batman's, has been passed down and Talia finally created the demonic warrior she always wanted in him.

    We are seeing the Third Good Batman, vs the Third Bad Batman and they're both children of Bruce and Talia. The dark brother and good brother, which is the same theme Morrison explored with Dr. Hurt/Thomas Wayne and Bruce Wayne. There's a point where the story actually says that.

    So who created the better Damian? Bruce or Talia? It plays into marital separations where two parents argue about how to raise their children, sometimes pitting split siblings against each other. Just add a huge comic book spectacle to the whole thing.

    The funny thing is that Talia's anger towards family and compassion is probably the result of her own father. And then Bruce. Utterly failed by the men in her life, combined with the fate of having to carry on her father's legacy, while he is more interested in just keeping himself alive and immortal, robbing Talia of her purpose in life as his heir. When it really comes down to it, what is her purpose? Her father is immortal and she just created him a clone organ bank to keep him alive forever. She created her new purpose: Leviathan. Bigger than her father's legacy and separate from it. Note that Damian is becoming like Bruce, but Heretic is a man removed from the elements that Ra's and Bruce share.

    Something that belongs to her alone.

    Last edited by DrSimonHurt; 01-04-2013 at 11:13 AM.

  13. #163
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    I hope we see Michael Lane again.

  14. #164

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post
    The next person to wear a version of this costume would be Jason Todd in Battle for the Cowl. A color swap here and there and you have the Third Batman again. Note that Jason Todd's current existence is the fault of Talia Al Ghul(*) dipping him into the Lazarus Pit. Even though that is partly retcon due to the New 52, note that Jason even claimed that was the reason he came back from the dead way back in Batman and Robin(When he yelled at Dick for not bringing Bruce back in the same manner, leading into the Blackest Knight issue), so it looks like Morrison was already ignoring the "Superboy Prime Punch" years before the reboot removed it. He wanted to place emphasis on Talia's role in resurrecting Jason, alone.
    This is a sidebar / derail from your interesting analysis, but personally I've always thought that Superboy Prime 'punching reality' as a way of bringing Jason back was a very Morrison-esque storyline, and I find it funny that so many people hate it while loving Morrison's work. It's not any crazier than the Miracle Machine and all the magical harmonics in Final Crisis and Action Comics.
    "I find myself in the service of lost boys struggling to be strong men." - Robin: Year One

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by TorontoFan1973 View Post
    This is a sidebar / derail from your interesting analysis, but personally I've always thought that Superboy Prime 'punching reality' as a way of bringing Jason back was a very Morrison-esque storyline, and I find it funny that so many people hate it while loving Morrison's work. It's not any crazier than the Miracle Machine and all the magical harmonics in Final Crisis and Action Comics.
    Well, the problem was that it never developed into anything. No one ever wrote the story where Superboy-Prime and Jason went face to face and resolved what happened. It felt like a non-story that just dragged down Jason's return.

    It was unnecessarily complicated. The cosmic elements Morrison use are self-contained and tend to resolve the story. Jason's return from that wall punch was a footnote that didn't serve any long term story purposes.

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