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  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Agreed. He's my favorite comic book writer, but I hate the way he writes villains. He made Red Hood one dimensionally evil (and if it weren't for Red Hood and Outlaws, Jason's 180 turn in Inc would make no sense), Magneto one-dimensionally evil, Darkseid one-dimensionally evil, Ra's and Talia one-dimensionally evil.

    You know something is wrong when Scott Lobdell can write a much more nuanced Magneto and Lex Luthor (as of today).
    Morrison's Jason and Luthor aren't one-dimensional at all, especially Jason who only wanted to prove his worth as a new Batman for Gotham, and even took in a Robin of his own. He actually broke down in tears once he was defeated... not exactly a moustache-twirling villain. His Luthor is, yes, an egomaniac, but I don't see how you can declare him one-dimensional after Morrison has him realise the fundamental structure of the universe and thereby see the error of his ways. Darkseid is supposed to be absolutely evil... he's basically the God of Evil, that's what makes Orion's struggle so immense. Morrison has a tendency to use a Devil archetype, like with Dr Hurt, but it's very unfair to claim he can't write nuanced villains.

    Only Magneto is a fair complaint. That was a misstep.

    As for the Talia of today, this is the way to make her an effective villain. Writers don't like to take the nature of a villain to the true conclusion, but Morrison does. Magneto is very sympathetic, but he's a would-be fascist, and just because he's changed his ways many times over the years doesn't change the fact that he views humans as being sub-mutant and would destroy the humans if he thought it'd do any good for mutants. I don't know if Talia is enough like her father to take it this far, but this is better than being the wishy-washy mafia princess that she was before.

  2. #122

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    i actually thought this was the weakest of the run.. but having said t hat it's still one of the best books out there.. it didn't really get interesting until the very end..
    taunt the baron, tempt the fury

  3. #123
    Senior Member jgiannantoni05's Avatar
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    but I hate the way he writes villains.
    I don't agree, but I can see where you're coming from some. Morrison does write some villains as "one-dimensionally evil," but I think when he's done so, it's been defensible, he's often playing against trend. As Neutrino pointed out, Darkseid is supposed to be that. Magneto...I think Morrison gauged that to do something new with Magneto, you needed to tap into the one-dim-evil Magneto that was moreso the original Mags in the first X-Men comics, he was not the almost-hero.

    [might edit this post with more examples much later, have to go]
    DC discarded their history, and now has none. DC will always be in the shadows of their past work.

  4. #124
    Senior Member stewart48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
    Morrison's Jason and Luthor aren't one-dimensional at all, especially Jason who only wanted to prove his worth as a new Batman for Gotham, and even took in a Robin of his own. He actually broke down in tears once he was defeated... not exactly a moustache-twirling villain. His Luthor is, yes, an egomaniac, but I don't see how you can declare him one-dimensional after Morrison has him realise the fundamental structure of the universe and thereby see the error of his ways. Darkseid is supposed to be absolutely evil... he's basically the God of Evil, that's what makes Orion's struggle so immense. Morrison has a tendency to use a Devil archetype, like with Dr Hurt, but it's very unfair to claim he can't write nuanced villains.

    Only Magneto is a fair complaint. That was a misstep.

    As for the Talia of today, this is the way to make her an effective villain. Writers don't like to take the nature of a villain to the true conclusion, but Morrison does. Magneto is very sympathetic, but he's a would-be fascist, and just because he's changed his ways many times over the years doesn't change the fact that he views humans as being sub-mutant and would destroy the humans if he thought it'd do any good for mutants. I don't know if Talia is enough like her father to take it this far, but this is better than being the wishy-washy mafia princess that she was before.
    I think magneto's later history cloud how evil magneto is been, I didn't see anything off about his magneto given the totality of magneto's history. Magneto had no qualms detonating nuclear weapons in heavily populated areas just for the sake of killing humans prior to grant Morrison

    Also I don't think he has completely turned over his cards regarding Talia, but that could just be wishful thinking from Batman's more positive view of who Talia was in this issue
    BAD TOUCHSCREEN TYPER

  5. #125
    Senior Member stewart48's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgiannantoni05 View Post
    I don't agree, but I can see where you're coming from some. Morrison does write some villains as "one-dimensionally evil," but I think when he's done so, it's been defensible, he's often playing against trend. As Neutrino pointed out, Darkseid is supposed to be that. Magneto...I think Morrison gauged that to do something new with Magneto, you needed to tap into the one-dim-evil Magneto that was moreso the original Mags in the first X-Men comics, he was not the almost-hero.

    [might edit this post with more examples much later, have to go]
    It's not like the first x-men comics aren't in continuity either or that his later attitudes towards humanity prior to m-day were a Rosey. The fact the x-men were mutants and not superpowered humans changed how mags interacted with them
    BAD TOUCHSCREEN TYPER

  6. #126
    Junior Member MillerFan's Avatar
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    Looks like my 2 cents were already shared.
    Last edited by MillerFan; 01-03-2013 at 07:17 AM.

  7. #127
    Member Seattle Freeze's Avatar
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    Batman Inc keeps turning me off more and more. This one had some interesting dialog in it but more and more this just seems to be a book with raging violence and little story movement.

    BTW, is Knight dead? It looked like he had his neck broken.
    Chill!

  8. #128
    Junior Member Volderon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seattle Freeze View Post
    Batman Inc keeps turning me off more and more. This one had some interesting dialog in it but more and more this just seems to be a book with raging violence and little story movement.

    BTW, is Knight dead? It looked like he had his neck broken.
    Well this whole fight has been coming since Batman and Son basically so yeah Id be worried if there wasnt action.

    And hes either dead or he is going to wish he was Im thinking.

  9. #129
    Junior Member SicSexSix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post
    I think Morrison is getting closer and closer to revealing that Damian was artificially aged. With Heretic being aged forward, and the revelation that Damian was meant to be spare parts for Ra's Al Ghul(a little kid's organ isn't very useful to a larger adult).
    He was referring to how Ra's intended to transfer his consciousness into Damian's body in Resurrection. But Talia sure did have plenty of "spare parts" for Damian, as seen in Batman & Son and Batman vs Robin. Heretic, being an aged Damian clone, is, in my opinion, the main reason why Dr Carter Nichols was put into this story, because of his time travel equipment, which I believe Talia has been using to further her plans.

  10. #130

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    Batman #666 is a story of a confrontation between two Damians. Our Damian (Batman 666) and Heretic (The Third Batman, thus making Michael Lane a misdirection).

    Now re-read #666 in this context, and let your mind explode.
    "We're both sons of Batman in our way."

    And Talia is Satan.

    Good day to yous.

  11. #131
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tobecooper View Post
    Batman #666 is a story of a confrontation between two Damians. Our Damian (Batman 666) and Heretic (The Third Batman, thus making Michael Lane a misdirection).

    Now re-read #666 in this context, and let your mind explode.
    "We're both sons of Batman in our way."

    And Talia is Satan.

    Good day to yous.
    Didn't the evil Batman in issue #666 have black skin? Or am I remembering it wrong?
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

    "Pym biting Blobs head off seems like something that would have happened when i was ten years old and playing with action figures."

    "i always assumed that [the blob] had the same powers as his 616 counterpart because, if simply being a huge fat guy was enough to be considered a mutant then there sure are a lot of mutants in 'real life'. "

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neutrino View Post
    Morrison's Jason and Luthor aren't one-dimensional at all, especially Jason who only wanted to prove his worth as a new Batman for Gotham, and even took in a Robin of his own. He actually broke down in tears once he was defeated... not exactly a moustache-twirling villain.
    He had his motivations, but ultimately he was a nut, and he was shooting cops for no reason in the very beginning of his panel-time. The morally grey aspects of the character were gone.

    His Luthor is, yes, an egomaniac, but I don't see how you can declare him one-dimensional after Morrison has him realise the fundamental structure of the universe and thereby see the error of his ways.
    I meant to refer to Action Comics, which had an interesting set-up for Luthor, but ultimately reveals him to be a pathetic coward.

    Darkseid is supposed to be absolutely evil... he's basically the God of Evil, that's what makes Orion's struggle so immense.
    No Darkseid isn't absolutely evil, he just represents a facet of evil, his greed. Kirby's Darkseid was much more nuanced and three dimensional, you saw him care for his sons, etc.

    Morrison has a tendency to use a Devil archetype, like with Dr Hurt, but it's very unfair to claim he can't write nuanced villains.
    Nothing unfair about it, he takes even the more gray villains and makes them devil archetypes like Hurt.

    As for the Talia of today, this is the way to make her an effective villain. Writers don't like to take the nature of a villain to the true conclusion, but Morrison does.
    I'm not necessarily against making her a villain, but the way it was done isn't very compelling. He's taking after Death of the Maidens, where Talia basically just goes utterly insane. Because clearly Batman doesn't have enough crazy villains. And then you have her speaking in cryptic, supervillain cliches in this issue and basically a heavy handed allegory for Al Qaeda.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Choppa View Post
    Didn't the evil Batman in issue #666 have black skin? Or am I remembering it wrong?
    That was Michael Lane, the third Batman from Morrison's run. He's the one who tortured Bruce and gave him a heart attack, which led to the 666 nightmare in the first place. Lane went on to become Azrael, which might be retconned(it wasn't a good story anyhow).

    I'm just confused by Talia's wording. The third Batman was Michael Lane. It was flat out stated in his origin and stories. He believed his family was killed by satanists and Dr. Hurt turned him into a monster.

    It's likely his family was actually killed by Leviathan and that led to his downfall. He was created to be that way. He does ruin the future, not Damian.

    That said, there's still no evidence that the Heretic character exists in the future. We haven't seen him. We've only seen Damian vs. Pyg, Hurt, and Lane(third Batman).

  14. #134
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrSimonHurt View Post
    That was Michael Lane, the third Batman from Morrison's run. He's the one who tortured Bruce and gave him a heart attack, which led to the 666 nightmare in the first place. Lane went on to become Azrael, which might be retconned(it wasn't a good story anyhow).

    I'm just confused by Talia's wording. The third Batman was Michael Lane. It was flat out stated in his origin and stories. He believed his family was killed by satanists and Dr. Hurt turned him into a monster.

    It's likely his family was actually killed by Leviathan and that led to his downfall. He was created to be that way. He does ruin the future, not Damian.

    That said, there's still no evidence that the Heretic character exists in the future. We haven't seen him. We've only seen Damian vs. Pyg, Hurt, and Lane(third Batman).
    So it was black? I'm not sure how any of that answers my question.
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

    "Pym biting Blobs head off seems like something that would have happened when i was ten years old and playing with action figures."

    "i always assumed that [the blob] had the same powers as his 616 counterpart because, if simply being a huge fat guy was enough to be considered a mutant then there sure are a lot of mutants in 'real life'. "

  15. #135
    Senior Member Choppa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Officersmile1466 View Post
    Was everyone confused when that 666 issue came out in 2007 or whenever it was? Did it seem random and pointless and bizarre? I'm just wondering since I've mostly read Morrison's arc in the trades and i guess it would funny if everyone wrote that issue off when now it seems as though the entire story revolves around it.
    Morrison has said it held some kind of important to his whole run, so people read it with that in mind.
    "John Stewart. LAME! ...this guy having a ring is like giving the batmobile to a blind old woman with her left leg in a cast."

    "Pym biting Blobs head off seems like something that would have happened when i was ten years old and playing with action figures."

    "i always assumed that [the blob] had the same powers as his 616 counterpart because, if simply being a huge fat guy was enough to be considered a mutant then there sure are a lot of mutants in 'real life'. "

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