Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 33

Thread: Supermans Joker

  1. #16
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Yeah the Batman comics have become unreadable to me because of this whole notion that Joker has massacred hundreds, maybe thousands of people, and because of his popularity, this is only going to continue and Batman can't do anything about it.

    I hope that doesn't ever happen here.
    Yeah, I must admit that I kinda have enough of the Joker myself (especially how he just dominates the Batline. Could we see the other villains for a change), so the prospect of "Joker like" figure for Superman isn't for my liking.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  2. #17
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    7,534

    Default

    I actually think it would serve the character best at this point for the theory I've seen that this isn't really the Joker to come true. Hell I might even want to go further and say that the real Joker hasn't been seen in a few years and this guy, masquerading as the real deal, is responsible for a lot of this genocide. Then you can legitimately kill off this one and bring back a Joker that's more...I dunno, for me personally the TAS Joker was perfect so something along those lines. Quite mad, quite evil, but in a sense civilized. Its a cliche plot device, but it is quite beyond the realm of imagination at this point that Batman wouldn't concede to understanding that this guy needs to be put down.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-31-2012 at 09:37 AM.

  3. #18
    Inf‚me et fier de l'Ítre Auguste Dupin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    5,100

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I actually think it would serve the character best at this point for the theory I've seen that this isn't really the Joker to come true. Hell I might even want to go further and say that the real Joker hasn't been seen in a few years and this guy, masquerading as the real deal, is responsible for a lot of this genocide. Then you can legitimately kill off this one and bring back a Joker that's more...I dunno, for me personally the TAS Joker was perfect so something along those lines. Quite mad, quite evil, but in a sense civilized. Its a cliche plot device, but it is quite beyond the realm of imagination at this point that Batman wouldn't concede to understanding that this guy needs to be put down.
    Or just have him go through one of his "changes of personality", as stated by Morrison, at the end of the crossover. I mean, I'm not reading "Death of the Family", but from where I stand, it kinda looks like "serial killer Joker" put through......I dunno, the extreme? Its logical conclusion?
    What I'm trying to say is that I just can't see how they could make the thing fuction is a satisfying way unless there is a big change.
    "I'm going to paraphrase Nietzsche, when you judge a work, the work judges you."

  4. #19
    Senior Member Darth Joker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    4,871

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Arvandor View Post
    I don't think such a villain works as well for Superman.

    He's too good. Unlike Batman, he's almost morally pure. He needs complex villains to define him. Batman is more ethically grey, and so a pure evil villain like Joker is workable by contrast.
    This is basically correct.

    The Joker works as a good foil for Batman because Batman himself is a darker character. This gives Joker something to latch onto, and something that he can try to twist and corrupt in Batman. It makes their rivalry interesting.

    But Superman is a hopeful optimist. He isn't a dark character. There's nothing there for Joker to latch onto - It's almost complete and pure contrast between Superman and Joker. And that can be interesting, but only once in awhile, imo. And largely as a purely physical struggle. Someone like The Joker probably wouldn't work as a regular Supes rogue.
    Please check out my new anime blog:

    http://assessingtheanime.blogspot.com/

  5. #20
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    11,997

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by robowizard View Post
    As in someone who kills people for no good reason and is completely insane.
    Because for Superman, his archenemy is Lex. That is what the Joker is to Batman. Sure, Lex isn't insane, but he is just as cold blooded and ruthless. He may not kill people for no good reason, but he will do it and will not feel any guilt over it. What Lex does have is a god complex and that is just as dangerous as being plain bat **** crazy.

  6. #21
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    344 Clinton St, Apt 3E
    Posts
    3,485

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Because for Superman, his archenemy is Lex. That is what the Joker is to Batman. Sure, Lex isn't insane, but he is just as cold blooded and ruthless. He may not kill people for no good reason, but he will do it and will not feel any guilt over it. What Lex does have is a god complex and that is just as dangerous as being plain bat **** crazy.
    The best version of Lex-Maggin's Lex-never killed anyone not because of some higher morals, but because it was beneath him to do so. He considered murder to be the act of an idiot.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  7. #22
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    11,997

    Default

    Which is ironic considering that he wants to kill Superman.

  8. #23
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    1,370

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cheesesteak View Post
    I think some, myself included, would argue the Joker is quite sane and kills people for more than just "no good reason." And is arguably one of the most psychologically complex villains. But luckily these are the Superman forums, so I'll go back on topic!

    I think a psychopathic serial killer wouldn't test Superman at all, agreeing w/ Mr. Holmes. Superman could just exile him to the Phantom Zone or shrink him or lock him up the Fortress of Solitude. Superman needs enemies who challenge his heart and mind, more than his physical prowess or ethical beliefs.
    Please explain to me in which way is the the Joker SO psychologically complex?

  9. #24
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    221B Baker Street
    Posts
    18,005

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    Please explain to me in which way is the the Joker SO psychologically complex?
    He LOVES Batman. You can see it in his eyes! He's the court jester while Batman is the king!

    Isn't that amazing?

  10. #25
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    4,106

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    Please explain to me in which way is the the Joker SO psychologically complex?
    didn't I allude to it in the sentence before? It's quite hard to fake insanity to the level he does. I mean, we're talking killer from Primal Fear x100. Except w/ a larger goal and purpose in mind - to break down his foil (Batman). which leads me to...

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    He LOVES Batman. You can see it in his eyes! He's the court jester while Batman is the king!

    Isn't that amazing?
    I'm not buying or supporting Snyder's explanation/interpretation. It truly is quite silly.

    But, I think Snyder is on to something regarding the jester-king relationship. However, I think if anything, (the non-Snyder, read: real) Joker feels he is the king in the relationship and is using Batman for his amusement. I mean, this has been touched on before, at least in other media, that the Joker is the true one in power here. He knows Batman will respond to whatever he does, so he does it (for reasons I'm not sure anyone quite truly knows). He knows Batman depends on him, not vice versa. Joker can be diagnosed w/ a variety of personality disorders and traits - narcissism, psychopathy (not the same as psychosis), mania, even OCPD. But insanity (or really, psychosis as "insanity" is really a legal term and not an official psychological disorder) is not one of them.
    Comics were happier before the Internet turned writing superhero stories into fruitless attempts to impress/entertain a small group of ppl who appear to hate comics and their creators.
    Grant Morrison

  11. #26
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    221B Baker Street
    Posts
    18,005

    Default

    Honestly despite all of that, Joker is still one-note. His motivations may not be so straight forward, but it doesn't really make him that compelling at the end of the day.

  12. #27
    pygophile and podophile Dr. Cheesesteak's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    4,106

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    Honestly despite all of that, Joker is still one-note. His motivations may not be so straight forward, but it doesn't really make him that compelling at the end of the day.
    considering he does pretty much do the same routine, I agree he can be uninteresting/redundant/predictable after a while.

    I at least give props to Snyder for attempting to try some psychoanalysis on the character, but part of me thinks the intriguing part of the Joker is that we, as readers, should never know his true psyche and psychoanalytical reasoning behind his intentions and actions. I suppose it possibly comes down to which dominant brain-side the reader is - whether they like to continue to analyze Joker or prefer more straight forward explanations of his actions. However, that being said, I'll contradict myself and say that I think a Joker mini from his perspective would be quite an interesting read. ...as long as it's written by someone who has a genuine understanding of psychological disorders and doesn't treat him as just some psychotic madman who's in love w/ Batman.
    Comics were happier before the Internet turned writing superhero stories into fruitless attempts to impress/entertain a small group of ppl who appear to hate comics and their creators.
    Grant Morrison

  13. #28
    Senior Member manofsteel1979's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Virginia, United States Of 'Merica, bitches!!!
    Posts
    1,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cheesesteak View Post
    considering he does pretty much do the same routine, I agree he can be uninteresting/redundant/predictable after a while.

    I at least give props to Snyder for attempting to try some psychoanalysis on the character, but part of me thinks the intriguing part of the Joker is that we, as readers, should never know his true psyche and psychoanalytical reasoning behind his intentions and actions. I suppose it possibly comes down to which dominant brain-side the reader is - whether they like to continue to analyze Joker or prefer more straight forward explanations of his actions. However, that being said, I'll contradict myself and say that I think a Joker mini from his perspective would be quite an interesting read. ...as long as it's written by someone who has a genuine understanding of psychological disorders and doesn't treat him as just some psychotic madman who's in love w/ Batman.
    Just read the first three issues of BATMAN's part of Death Of the Family...not digging Snyder's interpretation of the Joker. He seems to be taking cues from Frank Miller's take in THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS. That Joker obviously was in a twisted way, in love with Batman. I think Snyder is trying to plant the seeds of that here in a way, or at least foreshadow and play that up. I also don't dig the ripped off face idea. If they had to do a creepy disfigured Joker for the new 52, i would have preferred they did the facial scars ala Heath Ledger.

    Anyway back to the original topic, a agree that a Joker-like character would not work as well for Superman. I don't mind the idea of Superman going up against a Gotham Rogue from time to time, but those type of villains aren't really effective for Superman. Batman and Superman are like apples and oranges. Yeah, they are both fruit, they are both tasty in their own way, but they cannot be held to the same standard.

    As others have said, Superman's closest equivilant to his "opposite" is Lex Luthor. He is THE Superman villain just as many regard the Joker as THE Batman villain.

  14. #29
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    221B Baker Street
    Posts
    18,005

    Default

    Snyder is drawing from Arkham Asylum, which was intended by Morrison to be a criticism against the post-Miller Batman, not an affirmation of it.

  15. #30
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    11,997

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Cheesesteak View Post
    didn't I allude to it in the sentence before? It's quite hard to fake insanity to the level he does. I mean, we're talking killer from Primal Fear x100. Except w/ a larger goal and purpose in mind - to break down his foil (Batman). which leads me to...


    I'm not buying or supporting Snyder's explanation/interpretation. It truly is quite silly.
    Not really. It goes back to Frank Miller, who kept referring to Batman as "Darling". Grant Morrison had his first Joker story with the Joker acting homoerotic towards Batman, including grabbing his butt. James Robinson had a similar summary at the end of a two parter from 1994, where the Joker couldn't wait to cross paths with Bruce again. Snyder is influenced by their work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes
    Snyder is drawing from Arkham Asylum, which was intended by Morrison to be a criticism against the post-Miller Batman, not an affirmation of it.
    That may have been Morrison's intent, but the fact is that for some writers it is so compelling, that they cannot help but pay tribute to that.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •