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  1. #166
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulabulbul_Amir View Post
    He wasn't holding his own at all. In a fight scene lasting slightly over thirty second, Cap was knocked down/thrown to the ground three times. When Iron Man enters the fray, Cap is on his back.
    In the comics, how does Cap usually do when he tries to take on Loki one on one?

    But aside from that, aside from coming up with the tactics to slow the aliens down, not much hint is given that he is going to be the leader beforehand, and he doesn't act like it.
    Why should he? He's fresh from the ice and woke up in some weird science fiction world. This was his very first mission after defrosting.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  2. #167
    Completely sauced... klinton's Avatar
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    Honestly, critiques of the film this late in the game are more or less invalid.

    Does the movie hold up after your 80th viewing on Bluray? Probably not. No movie does. Doe it live up to the hype? Probably not.

    The fact that the univeral response at the time of it's release (from fan and casual movie goer alike) was "Wow" is really all that matters.

    Disecting it now is a futile and ridiculous effort. Any critique now is soa far from objective. It's actually impossible to formulate an unbiased POV (save going out into the bush and finding a lost tribe....whose reaction I assure you will still be "Wow").
    Freedom is merely the ability to live without fear of persecution.

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulabulbul_Amir View Post
    He wasn't holding his own at all. In a fight scene lasting slightly over thirty second, Cap was knocked down/thrown to the ground three times. When Iron Man enters the fray, Cap is on his back.
    Because Cap was fighting against a God. He held his own for far longer than one would expect an ordinary human would.

    Final battle, when he's shot in the gut by a random alien and Thor bails him out. It wouldn't be much on its own, but it adds up with the rest.
    No, it doesn't. It shows the seriousness of the situation, that the heroes CAN be hurt.

    I mean, this comes after Cap took out an entire battalion of alien bad guys BY HIMSELF and saved an entire room full of civilians. I don't here people talking about that.

    And what about when the Hulk is taken down by a group of bad guys? Why isn't there any complaints about that?

    Cap is shown as a capable tactician, though he doesn't even think of closing the portal, and doesn't consider the idea that closing the portal might need something other than "guns".
    Actually, no. Cap realizes that closing the portal has to be taken care of, just that the hordes of invading aliens comes first.

    Plus, Iron Man established that the portal COULDN'T be shut down by conventional means. Not sure why this is Cap's fault when the story goes out of its way to establish that they couldn't just go up and turn the portal off.

    But aside from that, aside from coming up with the tactics to slow the aliens down, not much hint is given that he is going to be the leader beforehand, and he doesn't act like it.
    Again, the leaping out of the plane scene to talk Thor and Iron Man down, to the comforting Tony scene, to the scene where Cap tells the police officers how best to evacuate the civilians all establish this beforehand.

    There's more to Cap being the tactician, qualities that are shifted to Tony.

    Not to mention, what hints are there that Cap is in charge before Tony tells him to call it?
    The "Nailing Iron Man and Thor with his shield and telling them to stand down" thing.

    Yeah, but here's the thing. Tony says Cap lives up to the legend before Cap ever leads them, and when he does, it is at Tony's beckoning. So it says as much, if not more, about Tony, than it does about Steve.
    So? It still doesn't diminish Cap. It shows that Cap is all that he appears to be, and even more.

    Tony is also shown being very friendly and accepting of Bruce. Cap, on the other hand, has animosity with Tony, and not much of a relationship with anyone else.
    Again, that's due to the "Man out of time" thing that was established at the beginning, with Cap at the punching bag and his scene with Coulson.

    I'd have liked it if Steve and Thor had formed more of a bond before the battle, as Thor was another character that I thought was underutilized.
    It's be nice. But I feel the movie did a fine job with what they had.

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by klinton View Post
    Honestly, critiques of the film this late in the game are more or less invalid.
    I don't think they're invalid simply due to the success of the film. I feel people CAN have legitimate critiques of the film (as no movie is perfect). However, I do feel that some people are going out of their way to criticize certain aspects of the film. Cap, in particular, seems to get the bulk of the criticism (at least on CBR) for very weird reasons. Him getting shot seems to be a common critique, for some reason.

  5. #170
    Like a boss E. Wilson's Avatar
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    Well, I sure liked it. But I'm beginning to find that I'm easy to please when it comes to superhero films. Avengers? Liked it. Iron Man II? Liked it. Amazing Spider-Man? Liked it. Dark Knight Rises? Liked that too. Spider-Man 3? Best movie ever.

  6. #171

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    No, it doesn't. It shows the seriousness of the situation, that the heroes CAN be hurt.

    I mean, this comes after Cap took out an entire battalion of alien bad guys BY HIMSELF and saved an entire room full of civilians. I don't here people talking about that.

    And what about when the Hulk is taken down by a group of bad guys? Why isn't there any complaints about that?
    The point isn't that he's hurt, the point is that he needs someone else to bail him out.

    So? It still doesn't diminish Cap. It shows that Cap is all that he appears to be, and even more.
    I disagree. Both Tony and Steve have opinions about each other, but Tony grows out of his own, and then the movie builds to the climax being about Steve being wrong about Tony. Tony comes across as the better person.

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulabulbul_Amir View Post
    The point isn't that he's hurt, the point is that he needs someone else to bail him out.
    And the reason he needed someone to bail him out was because he was hurt.

    Why isn't the same complaint made when Tony was falling from the portal? He needed someone to bail him out there.

    I disagree. Both Tony and Steve have opinions about each other, but Tony grows out of his own, and then the movie builds to the climax being about Steve being wrong about Tony. Tony comes across as the better person.
    Because Steve is already a pretty damn amazing person in his own right. Remember the whole "Living Legend" thing?

    Tony was an arrogant, cocksure showoff who didn't think he needed anyone else.

    Steve was a reluctant hero who didn't feel he had a place in the modern world.

    Tony's journey was more about him coming to terms with what it means to be a hero. Steve's journey was about accepting that he does have a place in this new world.

  8. #173

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    Well, Tony needs help because he nearly drained the arc-reactor to save the world, which was the climax of the movie. The fact that he needs bailing out just highlights the heroic sacrifice he just performed.

    Cap getting gut-shot was a random, irrelevant event.

  9. #174
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulabulbul_Amir View Post
    I disagree. Both Tony and Steve have opinions about each other, but Tony grows out of his own, and then the movie builds to the climax being about Steve being wrong about Tony. Tony comes across as the better person.
    No. Steve was dead right about Tony, and Tony recognised that and inspired by those harsh words, strived to do better than he had before.

    How is that short-selling Cap? He talked Iron Man into being a proper hero.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulabulbul_Amir View Post
    Well, Tony needs help because he nearly drained the arc-reactor to save the world, which was the climax of the movie. The fact that he needs bailing out just highlights the heroic sacrifice he just performed.

    Cap getting gut-shot was a random, irrelevant event.
    Cap didn't seem to be injured or hurt, or in need of bailing out there.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  10. #175

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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    No. Steve was dead right about Tony, and Tony recognised that and inspired by those harsh words, strived to do better than he had before.

    How is that short-selling Cap? He talked Iron Man into being a proper hero.
    I wouldn't say he talked him into it. His words had that effect, yes, but they weren't intended to inspire. It's the difference between someone calling you smelly and someone advising you to practice better hygiene.

    Cap didn't seem to be injured or hurt, or in need of bailing out there.
    He was on all fours the entire time Thor was finishing the others off.

  11. #176
    Quickkill GM DiceRoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    Cap didn't seem to be injured or hurt, or in need of bailing out there.
    I dunno, he seemed pretty hurt. He was clutching his wound and breathing pretty heavily. I had no problem with it, though. Cap shouldn't be able to just shrug of lasers, after all.

    And as to why no one mentioned the Hulk getting gunned, it's probably because A) It took a whole lot of them, and B) Judging by the roaring it seemed more like all the laserfire was doing was keeping him from moving, not hurting him.

  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulabulbul_Amir View Post
    Well, Tony needs help because he nearly drained the arc-reactor to save the world, which was the climax of the movie. The fact that he needs bailing out just highlights the heroic sacrifice he just performed.

    Cap getting gut-shot was a random, irrelevant event.
    Cap got shot during an alien invasion by soldiers wielding blaster weapons.

    How was getting shot while shots were flying around, in the middle of a battle, random or irrelevant?

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulabulbul_Amir View Post
    He was on all fours the entire time Thor was finishing the others off.
    'Cause he got shot. That's not something you walk off right away.

  14. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    Cap got shot during an alien invasion by soldiers wielding blaster weapons.

    How was getting shot while shots were flying around, in the middle of a battle, random or irrelevant?
    Because it doesn't have a point.

    As I said before, it doesn't matter that much on its own, but when you consider that this is the third time someone saved Cap's ass, and the second from no-name villain, it gets a little too much.

  15. #180

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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    'Cause he got shot. That's not something you walk off right away.
    However, the completely human (not to mention middle-aged, and probably not in the best of shape due to heavy drinking) isn't affected by getting thrown through a window.

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