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  1. #1516
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars C View Post
    It's not about not liking the story. It's about numerous interviews, message board posts and the occasional AR video and solicitations that show anything BUT respect for the readers.
    Come on...those guys were just playing around with the fans and people took what they said far too seriously and literally.

    Other responses are to specific individuals for other reasons.

    It's certainly not a general attitude towards all the fans.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  2. #1517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars C View Post
    It's very cool, and kudos for that. But I think Mr. Wacker and Mr. Slott would do well to remember that all fans are not sending death threats or grave insults, and laughing at fans does not help the good will, to put it mildly...
    Heh...I'm not laughing at "fans". I'm laughing at you.

    I don't know how many "fans" you think you speak for, but youve had several "fans" in this thread now tell upu that they think youre full of it. Why are you so dismissive of that?

    When someone has to invent slights to get themselves upset, I don't worry about how they feel. You aren't based in reality.

    Sorry to break it to you.

    SW

  3. #1518
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    Come on...those guys were just playing around with the fans and people took what they said far too seriously and literally.

    Other responses are to specific individuals for other reasons.

    It's certainly not a general attitude towards all the fans.
    Well, I would think they would be aware that fans can take these things seriously and literal? I think they do have a positive attitude to the fans that adore everything they do, but whenever there's a complaint, however small or large it may be, it's usually met with ridicule and an arrogant attitude. I might misinterpret something, but there are so many other comic cerators that meet critical fans with a grace and politeness I simply can't see here. I mean, any insults could be excused, quite lazily, with saying "I'm just playing around!", right? I'm a teacher, and we deal with kids who go too far in so many ways and that is just one excuse.

  4. #1519
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephen wacker View Post
    Heh...I'm not laughing at "fans". I'm laughing at you.

    I don't know how many "fans" you think you speak for, but youve had several "fans" in this thread now tell upu that they think youre full of it. Why are you so dismissive of that?

    When someone has to invent slights to get themselves upset, I don't worry about how they feel. You aren't based in reality.

    Sorry to break it to you.

    SW
    Yeah, that's classy. Real classy. Kind of shows my point, doesn't it? It's not about inventing anything, you showed it right here and you showed it in the AR video among others. And why should I be dismissive about others telling me I'm full of it? I'm sure you can think of a reason...wait, could it be that I don't agree with them? In general, when someone has to turn to insults just because someone else doesn't share the same opinion...yeah, then it's time to look up the word "respect".
    Last edited by Lars C; 02-12-2013 at 05:43 AM.

  5. #1520
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    "Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly. ....One "settles down" into a sort of selfish seriousness; but one has to rise to a [happy] self-forgetfulness. A man "falls" into a brown study; he reaches up at a blue sky. Seriousness is not a virtue. It would be a heresy, but a much more sensible heresy, to say that seriousness is a vice. It is really a natural trend or lapse into taking one's self gravely, because it is the easiest thing to do. It is much easier to write a good Times leading article than a good joke in Punch. For solemnity flows out of men naturally; but laughter is a leap. It is easy to be heavy: hard to be light. Satan fell by the force of gravity."-- G K Chesterton
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  6. #1521
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    "Angels can fly because they can take themselves lightly. ....One "settles down" into a sort of selfish seriousness; but one has to rise to a [happy] self-forgetfulness. A man "falls" into a brown study; he reaches up at a blue sky. Seriousness is not a virtue. It would be a heresy, but a much more sensible heresy, to say that seriousness is a vice. It is really a natural trend or lapse into taking one's self gravely, because it is the easiest thing to do. It is much easier to write a good Times leading article than a good joke in Punch. For solemnity flows out of men naturally; but laughter is a leap. It is easy to be heavy: hard to be light. Satan fell by the force of gravity."-- G K Chesterton
    It can be argued who're the serious and negative ones in this thread...

  7. #1522
    Exudes Awesomeness oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars C View Post
    Well, I would think they would be aware that fans can take these things seriously and literal? I think they do have a positive attitude to the fans that adore everything they do, but whenever there's a complaint, however small or large it may be, it's usually met with ridicule and an arrogant attitude. I might misinterpret something, but there are so many other comic cerators that meet critical fans with a grace and politeness I simply can't see here. I mean, any insults could be excused, quite lazily, with saying "I'm just playing around!", right? I'm a teacher, and we deal with kids who go too far in so many ways and that is just one excuse.
    Lars, I've heard the "Wacker only gets along with fans who adore everything they do" line before and it, in a word, bullshit. Wacker is an equal opportunity jokester and, moreover, these boards are filled with tons of posts by fans who disliked something about a story or the whole story itself to which Wacker has replied: "Sorry the story didn't work for you". Is something wrong with that reply in your view??

    My time on these boards has taught me that Wacker only needles when folks start to act overly dramatic, that's all. By the way, I saw the AR video and thought it was hysterical. Wanna know why? Because I have been that sort of fan in my lifetime to get angry at a comic book and swore I would never give Marvel another dime of my hard-earned dough, etc etc. Maybe I just find it easier to laugh at myself these days, I don't know but I don't get worked up the way you do over this stuff.

    For what it's worth, I would rather have guys like Wacker here on these boards even if I don't always agree with their behaviour than not at all. Just my two cents.
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  8. #1523
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars C View Post
    It can be argued who're the serious and negative ones in this thread...
    True enough. I just made a pretensious case for levity!
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  9. #1524
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Lars, I've heard the "Wacker only gets along with fans who adore everything they do" line before and it, in a word, bullshit. Wacker is an equal opportunity jokester and, moreover, these boards are filled with tons of posts by fans who disliked something about a story or the whole story itself to which Wacker has replied: "Sorry the story didn't work for you". Is something wrong with that reply in your view??

    My time on these boards has taught me that Wacker only needles when folks start to act overly dramatic, that's all. By the way, I saw the AR video and thought it was hysterical. Wanna know why? Because I have been that sort of fan in my lifetime to get angry at a comic book and swore I would never give Marvel another dime of my hard-earned dough, etc etc. Maybe I just find it easier to laugh at myself these days, I don't know but I don't get worked up the way you do over this stuff.

    For what it's worth, I would rather have guys like Wacker here on these boards even if I don't always agree with their behaviour than not at all. Just my two cents.
    No, when the reply is only "sorry the story didn't work for you" or "not every book is for you", there's absolutely nothing wrong with the replies. On the contrary. The "I don't laugh at the fans, I laugh at YOU" replies or that video is not good replies IMHO. And it's when it sinks to insults or ridiculing (which we see very often) that I have a problem with. Wacker needles when he thinks people are overly dramatic = does not share the same opinion.

    As for that video, I can also see the silliness in "I won't give Marvel another DIME" reactions, and I can absolutely see that it's just a story, it's just the arrogant attitude I have an issue with. And it's been like that since the "Dying Wish" story was announced. I just don't think they can take criticism well, and they have a tendency to treat every fan who has some complaint the same way. I just think it's a bad and arrogant attitude to laugh at fans that are disatisfied with the product they're making and just say "I know you buy it anyways".

  10. #1525
    Exudes Awesomeness oldschool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars C View Post
    No, when the reply is only "sorry the story didn't work for you" or "not every book is for you", there's absolutely nothing wrong with the replies. On the contrary. The "I don't laugh at the fans, I laugh at YOU" replies or that video is not good replies IMHO. And it's when it sinks to insults or ridiculing (which we see very often) that I have a problem with. Wacker needles when he thinks people are overly dramatic = does not share the same opinion.

    As for that video, I can also see the silliness in "I won't give Marvel another DIME" reactions, and I can absolutely see that it's just a story, it's just the arrogant attitude I have an issue with. And it's been like that since the "Dying Wish" story was announced. I just don't think they can take criticism well, and they have a tendency to treat every fan who has some complaint the same way. I just think it's a bad and arrogant attitude to laugh at fans that are disatisfied with the product they're making and just say "I know you buy it anyways".
    Lars, I am not sure what else I can add to this conversation. You say you have a problem with their "attitude" so not much will apparantly change your viewpoint. Each of us needs to make their own choices and if you choose to not buy these books any longer, I respect your choice. I only wonder if you perhaps are not overreacting to what is, essentially, hype. You've already made it clear that you don't care for their style of hype/promotion so let's not go 'round in circles again. Bottom line: if your distaste for their hype outweighs your enjoyment of their stories, then I think your decision is clear.

    PS: Thinking on it some more, I think the problem stems from your inability/unwillingness (I don't mean that in a bad way; just don't know how else to put it) to acknowledge that Marvel's hype machine is---and has always been---pretty aggressive. It's just that, in 2013, they sometimes rev it even louder and longer to cut through the clutter. They had to promo "Dying Wish" in an over-the-top (even by Marvel standards): it was a 700th annvy issue, the character's 50th birthday, an $8 (!) comic, the last issue in a series before a new title/direction and this is a character that has already seen a "death", an unmasking, a clone (or 20), etc etc. So of course they are going to use every trick at their disposal to get us to get to our LCS the day after Christmas and drop $8 on this book. Now you view their tone as "arrogant" but I imagine it's not fair afield from what Stan Lee did back in 1967. I really don't.
    Last edited by oldschool; 02-12-2013 at 06:23 AM.
    "What oldschool said"
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  11. #1526
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    True enough. I just made a pretensious case for levity!
    Well appreciated.

  12. #1527
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldschool View Post
    Lars, I am not sure what else I can add to this conversation. You say you have a problem with their "attitude" so not much will apparantly change your viewpoint. Each of us needs to make their own choices and if you choose to not buy these books any longer, I respect your choice. I only wonder if you perhaps are not overreacting to what is, essentially, hype. You've already made it clear that you don't care for their style of hype/promotion so let's not go 'round in circles again. Bottom line: if your distaste for their hype outweighs your enjoyment of their stories, then I think your decision is clear.
    Botton line for me is; if a twelve year old kid behaved that way at the school I work, it would probably lead to something more, and the "I was just playing around" does just not cut it as an excuse. And I mean, if someones behaves like a d*ck, is it just up to the others to ignore that? I think the story of the "Superior Spider-Man" has come off to a decent/good start, but I'd like to see some other kind of marketing than "Ooooh, you will get so angry about issue #10!" or stuff like that video. Other creators can do that, why can't they? And it's not necessarily about the hype either, I think Bendis is good at hyping his stuff, Mark Millar used to be too. But I just never saw them making stuff like the previous examples?

    PS: Thinking on it some more, I think the problem stems from your inability/unwillingness (I don't mean that in a bad way; just don't know how else to put it) to acknowledge that Marvel's hype machine is---and has always been---pretty aggressive. It's just that, in 2013, they sometimes rev it even louder and longer to cut through the clutter. They had to promo "Dying Wish" in an over-the-top (even by Marvel standards): it was a 700th annvy issue, the character's 50th birthday, an $8 (!) comic, the last issue in a series before a new title/direction and this is a character that has already seen a "death", an unmasking, a clone (or 20), etc etc. So of course they are going to use every trick at their disposal to get us to get to our LCS the day after Christmas and drop $8 on this book. Now you view their tone as "arrogant" but I imagine it's not fair afield from what Stan Lee did back in 1967. I really don't.
    I'm aware of that some people think this is just the extension of what Stan Lee did in the 60's. I don't know, I just don't agree with that. Stan always had a way to make the readers feel like a part of a community. That's a very far stretch from sitting and laughing about it. The intro video to Superior Spider-Man was more along the line of being respectful, actually. If we get specific, how is that video not talking down and laughing at the readers?

    Of course they had to hype ASM 700 the way they did, especially since the hefty price tag, and of course it would work. But is that still an excuse to talk down to fans, however they may react?
    Last edited by Lars C; 02-12-2013 at 06:41 AM.

  13. #1528
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars C View Post
    Botton line for me is; if a twelve year old kid behaved that way at the school I work, it would probably lead to something more, and the "I was just playing around" does just not cut it as an excuse. And I mean, if someones behaves like a d*ck, is it just up to the others to ignore that? I think the story of the "Superior Spider-Man" has come off to a decent/good start, but I'd like to see some other kind of marketing than "Ooooh, you will get so angry about issue #10!" or stuff like that video. Other creators can do that, why can't they? And it's not necessarily about the hype either, I think Bendis is good at hyping his stuff, Mark Millar used to be too. But I just never saw them making stuff like the previous examples?
    Mark Millar's hype doesn't go beyond "This book is the book of the year" or "This is the most controversial comic of the year" or "This is the most awesome comic in the universe".

    IMO, it's a lot more grating than anything Marvel puts out.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  14. #1529
    Senior Member Lars C's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    Mark Millar's hype doesn't go beyond "This book is the book of the year" or "This is the most controversial comic of the year" or "This is the most awesome comic in the universe".

    IMO, it's a lot more grating than anything Marvel puts out.
    But more along the lines of what Stan Lee used to do. It was either "This is the story of the year!" or "This might not be the story of the year, but we kinda think you owe us to check it out anyways" (in one of the early X-Men issues). It's not "I'm laughing at your complaints, because I know you buy the book anyways. And we're gonna make a video of us laughing at y'all". By the way, those are not in any way direct quotes. The two early are paraphrases, and the last one is sarcasm.

  15. #1530
    Mysterious Plains Knight Scorpiodisc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lars C View Post
    I think the story of the "Superior Spider-Man" has come off to a decent/good start, but I'd like to see some other kind of marketing than "Ooooh, you will get so angry about issue #10!" or stuff like that video.
    I really do not think that those "hook lines" are meant for fans. They are meant for the casual observer and or the vendor that does not have their finger on the pulse of whats hot in comics. Why? Because controversy sells! Think what you will about the tactics used to boost sales, but at the end of the day, comics exist to make money. Marketing to your fans is a waste of time. You don't need to advertise to the fans, they will by the book regardless of the "Hook lines" in the industry solicitations. You market for the "New Reader" in hopes to turn them into a fan.

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