An average Adeptus Astartes (WarHammer 40k) vs An average Spartan (HALO)

[Deuseven]

About a year ago I picked up WarHammer 40k Space Marine for PS3. I've always been interested in the lore but could never really find any outlet to get into the series. I've even attempted to gain some info on this very board, though with little success. After playing that game I fell in love and have been hardcore 40k ever since.

A couple battle brothers and myself were having a discussion the other day and the Spartan soldiers from the HALO verse came up. Even with my profound love of all things Adeptus Astartes, I was simply taken aback by the notion that any Space Marine could go toe to toe with any Spartan. While Astartes are physically and genetically FAR superior to regular humans the Spartans at least based on what I've played, read and seen, seem to be even moreso than Space Marines. I've heard feats of Spartans lifting 80 tons and the like. I've read books where chief performs similar feats though my memory is admittedly faulty regarding the HALO books. This is stuff I don't think an average Space Marine can match.

There's also the discussion of the weapons within each verse and the different effects it may have on the different verses. That, I think, is where the real debate begins. Bolter rounds and all of their variations are extremely potent superior forms of bullets. The HALO verse utilizes similar superior forms of firearms though they also employ pretty standard weapons as well. I'd like to see the thoughts on how the different weapons of each verse stack up against each other.

What say you all?

Match 1: An average Adeptus Astartes(Space Marine) vs An average Spartan (HALO) in full armor unarmed combat.

Match 2: An average Adeptus Astartes(Space Marine) vs An average Spartan (HALO) armed and in full armor.
Space Marine: Bolter with regular bolter rounds.
Spartan: Assault Rifle

BONUS Match 3: Assault Marine(Jetpack Assisted Space Marine) vs A jumpack Spartan (HALO)

Notes: Keep in mind here that most if not all Assault Space Marines in the Lore (the board game can differ at times with the various new rule books that come out) use a Bolt Pistol and some sort of Chain/power sword, axe, Hammer combo. This is different from HALO where I believe the jumpack assisted soldiers can carry a more diverse set of weapons comparatively.

Have at thee gents.

[nervmeister]

The Spartan goes "Missing In Action".........though a few of his body parts (including the top half of his skull) are later recovered.

[Deuseven]

Interesting. This sounds like you're going more with Space Marines than Spartans.

Is my understanding of what the HALO Spartans are capable of correct or incorrect? I've read on some boards, maybe even this one though it's been so long I can't remember, that Chief is able to lift around 80 tons or so give or take. I realize we're discussing average soldiers here so the chief example isn't the best one but everything I've read and seen has the average Spartans around the same ballpark as Chief. Whether or not that is in the strength range I mentioned is what I'd really like to know. I guess I'm wondering if I'm just completely tripping on what chief can do and maybe I'm misremembering some of the feats that were listed. This was a ways back as well so maybe some future showings toned down what the Spartans are capable of.

I watched the Bungie movie which was 7 short stories strung together detailing the various histories of some of the HALO verse characters and while I didn't see anything approaching strength in the way of 80 tonnage I definitely saw some badass abilities. Enhanced strength, speed, etc. To what degree is what I'd like to know.

In the novels regular space marines move far too fast for a normal man to follow their movements. They move like blurs is how it is written in the books. They have enough strength to utterly and completely dismember even armored soldiers (not other Space Marines or Chaos marines mind you but imperial guard and the like definitely). For example Sargeant Learchus of the Ultramarines, not known for his physical might but rather his fierce and unwavering sense of duty was able to dead lift the back of a tank(I think, memory's rusty, but it was a big vehicle) with little to no visible effort whatsoever. He did this feat simply to help an adjutant get the vehicle out of some mud it got stuck in. Chapter Masters are a great deal beyond that in all physical realms. And the Primarchs? Ridiculous even when compared to Chapter Masters.

Perhaps someone more knowledgeable on the HALO side can weigh in.

[Jonathan8572]

Based on what I know of each thread(which in 40K includes quite alot EXCEPT any of the novels and for Halo includes mostly just the games) I'd say unarmed Spartan wins due to some superior strength feats shown by the Chief, but armed the space marine should win this due to superior wins(the boltgun way outmatches a standard assault rifle).

[Chou Blaster]

Space Marines have *WAY* more back story than Spartans. And Chief is not a normal Spartan but a big franchise hero version of Spartans.

Space Marine equalivent? The big name Space Marines might not be in the games, but have impressive as hell feats in the back ground stories or "fluff."

Also your average Marine vs Average Spartan?

The Marine is going to win.

Hell the only thing I think HALO verse has over WH40K is their FTL.

[Deuseven]

Space Marines have *WAY* more back story than Spartans. And Chief is not a normal Spartan but a big franchise hero version of Spartans.

Space Marine equalivent? The big name Space Marines might not be in the games, but have impressive as hell feats in the back ground stories or "fluff."

Also your average Marine vs Average Spartan?

The Marine is going to win.

Hell the only thing I think HALO verse has over WH40K is their FTL.

Yeah I've read most of the Horus Heresy books so I'm quite familiar with some of these guys' feats. I'm really unsure on the spartan feats. As mentioned previously Chief was probably not the best example when discussing what average Spartans are capable of, my point was that even average Spartans seem to be in the same relative ballpark.

"The Package" short film from Halo Legends illustrates this point perfectly as the other Spartans alongside Chief, while clearly not his equal are certainly keeping up with him. Given their relative similar abilities I would think an average Spartan while obviously not matching what Chief can do in this match up wouldn't be that far off.

What are some of Chiefs more impressive feats?

Uriel Ventris, 4th Company Captain of the UltraMarines has various strength and combat feats that strike me as particularly impressive. He's capable of completely removing the heads and dismembering the body parts of Imperial Guard level soldiers, which mirror the UNSC marines in HALO. There's an instance where he is making his way towards a group of three soldiers hunkered down in a bunker. He has to hurdle into the bunker. Once there he moves so fast against these soldiers that he's able to punch one of their heads off, spin and stab another other one through the groin described as the guy basically caving in from the impact of the thrust, and then spin back around and elbow the third trooper completely shattering his upper body all before they can get a shot off or literally perform any kind of action other than crying out in their death throes. These strikes are simply devastating to these troops. The blows either removes the intended body part or smashes it completely to oblivion.

Keep in mind that these soldiers are armored in a mixture of carapace armor which is quite similar to the under armor of what a space marine wears(space marines when undergoing their transformation become bonded to this synthetic skin/armor amalgam that acts as a very tough secondary type of armor and allow the marine to function optimally with their cumbersome power armor) and adamantine armor (not the Marvel stuff) which makes the feats quite impressive IMO.

He has a strength feat where after a battle with these huge unstoppable monsters, a building proceeds to collapse on him. He's extremely weak, injured and without his power armor. He's able to, while injured with a broker rib and other various injuries, lift the ruble and debris of a building off of himself with great effort.

His durability is pretty off the charts as well. Those unstoppable monsters he was dealing with prior to the building collapsing showed feats where they were literally ripping tanks apart with their bare hands, tearing armored soldiers to pieces armor and all, completely no selling auto cannon and las cannon fire. Uriel took multiple direct hits from these beasts without his power armor.

It's important to note that while these are impressive feats, Uriel is not some type of abberation among Space Marines. Physically speaking, he's nothing all that special. In fact, his Sergeant, Pasanius is his better in the area of combat and he specifically states this. There are many ways one attains higher ranks in the Imperium of Man, with martial prowess just being one of the many factors that are considered. I mention and bring up Uriel because his feats while impressive are not outside of the realm of what a lot of other Space Marines can accomplish.

Brother Artemis of the Mortifactor Chapter (My favorite Chapter and the one I currently run in the PS3 game) flat out bested Uriel in direct combat. Being more skilled and more or less his physical equal.

All that being said, I've heard Chief is in the 80 ton range and that would more than allow him to replicate and surpass some of those showings.

It does seem as if the Bolter rounds themselves trump basically anything a Spartan could throw at them.

[Cthulhu_of_R'yleh]

One thing.

The movie "Halo Legends" has next to no continuity to the books or games. The Spartans in it aren't anywhere near the book versions of themselves. Book Spartans, however are all durable enough to survive a fall from near-orbit in a weaker variant of the Chief's own armor.

[Deuseven]

The reason I've been asking for more Chief feats is because I'm assuming that their aren't that many useable feats for an average Spartan as the entire Halo verse basically revolves around John's story. I don't even know if there is much detail on what the average Spartans are capable of. I figured if i could get a solid idea on what Chief can do then maybe I can work backwards from there and kind of then focus on what the average Spartans can do based off of the info I gathered on Chief.

If there are some feats for an average Spartan, maybe from the Halo Legends series that I'm missing please point me in that direction.

[Deuseven]

One thing.

The movie "Halo Legends" has next to no continuity to the books or games. The Spartans in it aren't anywhere near the book versions of themselves. Book Spartans, however are all durable enough to survive a fall from near-orbit in a weaker variant of the Chief's own armor.

Oh shit. I did not know this at all.

That's some durable shit. I don't think Space Marines can survive that.

[Deuseven]

One thing.

The movie "Halo Legends" has next to no continuity to the books or games. The Spartans in it aren't anywhere near the book versions of themselves. Book Spartans, however are all durable enough to survive a fall from near-orbit in a weaker variant of the Chief's own armor.

Besides durability what other feats do they have?

[Cthulhu_of_R'yleh]

Besides durability what other feats do they have?

Well, the average Spartans are all dead... and Chief is really the only one with notable strength feats.

[blackpariah]

*snip* Chief's feats(assuming we are going from the books as is being hinted by the various people speaking of book feats)...

Class 5-ish brick with low-end BT status.
Feats of strength include punching down Titanium II (Titanium strengthened on the molecular level) blast doors, flipping a warthog that was entrenched in mud while standing in mud himself and extremely fatigued.
Outside of the suit at the age of 14 he killed a highly trained ODST (these guys are not your every day chumps like most "elite" forces are, they are actually good) with a single punch.. on accident.

Speed-wise it describes him watching bullets, even dodging a few. He deflects a missile (not a rocket, an actual Missile) with the help of Cortana. However, as it happens, she is standard equipment for him. He moves so fast that ODST that were completely surrounding him with fully automatic weapons cannot even train in on his movements. Outside of the suit he utterly owns 5 highly trained ODST. Mind you the suit is a major boost to his reflexes.

Durability... This is where it is silly. He has consistently tanked things way beyond a Class 5. For example, the missile that he deflected (mentioned above) exploded almost immediately after he slapped it, so in other words right in his face. Mind you, he was already at half shields... and all it did was bloody his lip. His armor was not breached. And his armor has been upgraded since then.
- He has tanked a fully charged blast from a Hunter's Fuel Rod (on more than one occasion) and all it did was knock down his shields. Once by surprise it did knock him down, however when he was ready he stood and took it. Hunter's are an anti-vehicle unit. Their Fuel Rods melt through feet of Titanium II armor like butter.
-Another Spartan (in worse armor than he has currently) was hit by a Covenant Spaceship. The first two shots dropped her shields. The next three melted through the armor. She was still alive and capable of talking, she did however die from this. The point here was that it took two shots to drop her shields. She was fine after this. These weapons are made to eat through several meters of Titanium II armor (on the humans spacecraft) and have the feats of doing it.
-There is another instance where a Swordsman Elite forces his sword up to Chief's armor. The swords actually cut straight through blast doors and even ship armor with little to no resistance. It describes the sword as literally being worked like a saw and not piercing the armor. It is damaging it but it does not breach before John stops it.
-He has tanked sustained .50 Caliber machine-gun fire and tons of various other things such as point-blank grenades with basically nil for effect. Spartan IIIs (which are way, way, way weaker), in a weaker suit of armor have survived re-entry with only a limp.

This is a pretty good look at how strong and fast Spartans are. From what you've posted, it seems the Space Marines have them outclassed.

[Deuseven]

Interesting. It certainly seems like a fairly close fight regardless of whatever slight advantages there may or may not be. As before, the durability seems pretty impressive though some of the listed stuff could be a little difficult to quantify.

There seems to be a slight physical strength advantage to the Space Marines, while speed could be argued as equal if not a little for the Spartans, durability also seems pretty even.

For those not familiar with Space Marine armor. This armor is impervious to most standard types of auto cannon fire. Auto cannons are simply what our modern day weapons are called in this universe. These weapons do little to nothing to a Space Marines armor. Now, if we're talking about mounted auto cannon turrets or things like auto cannons mounted on tanks, that's a different story. Those things will mess up marines due to the ,larger rounds used(they are anti vehicle rounds after all). And some forms of power armor do have certain aspects of the armor that are particularly more vulnerable than other types. But by and large, Space Marine power armor affords Space Marines near invulnerability when going against most Imperial Guard level standard weapons.

In the novel, Deliverance lost, Corax the Primarch of the raven guard is approached by his Chief Apothecary(doctor/technician soldier) and brought into the test firing/weapons range. He goes on to detail the events of the Istavaan massacre.

If you are familiar with the lore you know how meaningful this event is. If not, I'll simply say that this is the event that crippled a good number of the loyalist armies that were fighting for the emperor in WarHammer 40k during the Horus Heresy. During this event, Brother turned against brother. The Iron Warriors, Death Guard, Word Bearers and Emperor's Children turned their augmented weapons on their Raven Guard, Salamander and Iron Hand brothers nearly wiping out all three legions (100,000 soldiers strong. Each legion.). Precious few loyalist marines survived.

I bring this up because while the traitors used augmented weapons the traitors' armor was still standard issue at the time and it was a specific point that the loyalists' weapons were not doing enough damage to the traitors for them to put up a fair fight. Regular bolter rounds while capable of taking small chunks of armor off of the traitor Space Marines they could not do enough damage in a small enough time to make up the difference. The traitors however were using the new Kraken bolt rounds developed by the traitorous faction of the mechanicus guild which were just devastating. All in all it's a pretty impressive showing for a Space Marines armor in general considering how crazy strong a bolter round is.

For those who are unfamiliar with a bolter round:

The Standard Bolt is the standard-issue antipersonnel ammunition for the Bolter. It is designed to penetrate a target and detonate, causing horrific injuries.

Internal Details

A solid-fuel rocket propellant base
An outer casing containing conventional charge
Gyrostabilizer
Mass-reactive fuse. Has a split-second timer to delay detonation upon impact until after the shot penetrates the target.
Hardened diamantine penetrating tip. This allows for the bolt to penetrate most armour before detonation.
Main Charge
Depleted uranium core. This is a very dense material, adding weight and thus momentum to the round when in flight. This aids in the bolt's penetration of the victim.

While a lot of that is mumbo jumbo speak, in short these rounds are mini rockets and have extreme destructive potential when you realize these are standard hand held weapons every Space Marine uses. They explode after the diamond hard tip penetrates the target. The bolter round is so potent a headshot will 1 hit kill an unshielded but armored Space Marine. With shielding it's another story altogether.

Yeah, it seems like there some good stuff to be had here. Thanks for the input to all who've joined in so far.