POLL: Spider-Man's Single Status

[Scott Taylor]

Ultimate MJ is REALLY insecure. Amazing film Gwen is not.

Nah, I just don't see MJ's insecurity. She willingly stuck with Peter even after finding out he was Spider-Man, through being kidnapped by Norman and almost tossed off a bridge, through many other villains, the Clone Saga, etc. She drove a truck into Norman Osborn while he was in monster mode! Then after Peter died she snuck into a crime scene surrounded by Shield agents and started taking pictures. Not the actions of an insecure person.

Unless you just mean she was startled alot when various villains appeared in her face. Which is true.

[thetrellan]

I cried at 122, specifically the page where Peter just bemoans her loss. I was really into that issue at that point.

With that said, I'm not sure what you mean by people being unable to let go. I know there are a small contingent that want her brought back, but even amongst her fans, I'd argue that's a minority position.

I think the reason a lot fans hate Gwen is that they don't want to cry and consider it unmanly. But real men do cry, even if they can't admit it. They just try not to let others see it. Hell, I cried at this. Anyone who doesn't like it can take it somewhere else, cause I'll kick your @$$.

Yeah, I definitely get the impression some folks think that just because I hold this moment in Marvel history sacred that I want her to come back or something. But I know of no writer that I'd trust with that job, certainly not after JMS trampled on her role like that. She's better off dead.

[thetrellan]

Nah, I just don't see MJ's insecurity. She willingly stuck with Peter even after finding out he was Spider-Man, through being kidnapped by Norman and almost tossed off a bridge, through many other villains, the Clone Saga, etc. She drove a truck into Norman Osborn while he was in monster mode! Then after Peter died she snuck into a crime scene surrounded by Shield agents and started taking pictures. Not the actions of an insecure person.

Unless you just mean she was startled a lot when various villains appeared in her face. Which is true.

I think Scott is referring to MJ's reaction to Peter's breaking up with her, but I think she handled it as well as can be expected.

Yep, in Superman vs. the Amazing Spiderman, we saw how closely Clark Kent and Spiderman's lives parallel each other. Guess it wasn't close enough for Bendis, though, so he turned MJ into Lois Lane. Like Superman is such a perfect model for how it should be done. And people wonder why I don't like Bendis.

[Kevinroc]

Nah, I just don't see MJ's insecurity. She willingly stuck with Peter even after finding out he was Spider-Man, through being kidnapped by Norman and almost tossed off a bridge, through many other villains, the Clone Saga, etc. She drove a truck into Norman Osborn while he was in monster mode! Then after Peter died she snuck into a crime scene surrounded by Shield agents and started taking pictures. Not the actions of an insecure person.

Unless you just mean she was startled alot when various villains appeared in her face. Which is true.

I'm just looking at how often she and Peter broke up. MJ's attitude about being tossed off a bridge (and her attitude when Norman went on TV and said SHIELD illegally imprisoned him). Her attitude when Gwen moved in with Peter. And her reaction over Kitty Pryde. Poor Gwen couldn't even handle it when Bendis did the Ultimate Chameleons story. And that Ultimate MJ never worked up an antidote the super villain's mutating formula.

(And yes, it was pretty badass when she smashed into Norman with a truck.)

[Kevinroc]

I think the reason a lot fans hate Gwen is that they don't want to cry and consider it unmanly. But real men do cry, even if they can't admit it. They just try not to let others see it. Hell, I cried at this. Anyone who doesn't like it can take it somewhere else, cause I'll kick your @$$.

Yeah, I definitely get the impression some folks think that just because I hold this moment in Marvel history sacred that I want her to come back or something. But I know of no writer that I'd trust with that job, certainly not after JMS trampled on her role like that. She's better off dead.

I can admit that I cry. And I can admit that some stories have moved me to tears. Gwen's death was not one of those stories.

[Scott Taylor]

I'm just looking at how often she and Peter broke up. MJ's attitude about being tossed off a bridge (and her attitude when Norman went on TV and said SHIELD illegally imprisoned him). Her attitude when Gwen moved in with Peter. And her reaction over Kitty Pryde. Poor Gwen couldn't even handle it when Bendis did the Ultimate Chameleons story. And that Ultimate MJ never worked up an antidote the super villain's mutating formula.

(And yes, it was pretty badass when she smashed into Norman with a truck.)

Oh, ok. Good points. She was insecure about the other women in and out of Pete's life, that is true. But I am trying to think if Amazing film Gwen had any competition. I don't think she did. So maybe its not a fair comparison until MJ enters the films.

[Kevinroc]

Oh, ok. Good points. She was insecure about the other women in and out of Pete's life, that is true. But I am trying to think if Amazing film Gwen had any competition. I don't think she did. So maybe its not a fair comparison until MJ enters the films.

It depends on how they play MJ in the 2nd and 3rd films. But as Gwen was presented in Amazing 1, I thought she came across as the stereotyped "Perfect Gwen." No flaws, no insecurities.

[thetrellan]

I can admit that I cry. And I can admit that some stories have moved me to tears. Gwen's death was not one of those stories.

Damn, I don't have a comeback for that. Cry,cry,cry. lol

I was just thinking of the arguments against literary use of tragedy. As if some readers resent it when characters have (gasp!) feelings. Not that I don't see how trite that can get. When I realized that Captain Stacy died shortly before Gwen, the first thought I had was "For crying out loud, how bad does the Parker luck run? Can't this kid get a break?"

But I loved it nonetheless.

Of course, in retrospect, I see how it had to happen. The good captain was stepping into uncle Ben's shoes. His death fulfilled that role.

[thetrellan]

It depends on how they play MJ in the 2nd and 3rd films. But as Gwen was presented in Amazing 1, I thought she came across as the stereotyped "Perfect Gwen." No flaws, no insecurities.

Actually fewer insecurities. When she and Peter met, they both soon became walking masses of insecurity, dude. "Why doesn't Peter call? What should I do?" "What if I call and She blows me off?" It is to laugh. Ha ha.

[Scott Taylor]

It depends on how they play MJ in the 2nd and 3rd films. But as Gwen was presented in Amazing 1, I thought she came across as the stereotyped "Perfect Gwen." No flaws, no insecurities.

Yah I felt they played Gwen a bit safe in the movie. I was a little disappointed in it, actually. She did well with the material she had, which was mostly about the chemistry between her and Peter. But then she was fairly unreactive about her father's death (especially when compared with the comics) and with the fact that Peter was sort of not there for her through the whole thing.

[Kevinroc]

Damn, I don't have a comeback for that. Cry,cry,cry. lol

I was just thinking of the arguments against literary use of tragedy. As if some readers resent it when characters have (gasp!) feelings. Not that I don't see how trite that can get. When I realized that Captain Stacy died shortly before Gwen, the first thought I had was "For crying out loud, how bad does the Parker luck run? Can't this kid get a break?"

But I loved it nonetheless.

Of course, in retrospect, I see how it had to happen. The good captain was stepping into uncle Ben's shoes. His death fulfilled that role.

Oh yeah, Captain Stacy had to die. But nobody ever asks for him to come back.

You wanna know what stories made me cry? I don't know if you want the answer to that question.

Actually fewer insecurities. When she and Peter met, they both soon became walking masses of insecurity, dude. "Why doesn't Peter call? What should I do?" "What if I call and She blows me off?" It is to laugh. Ha ha.

More pronounced flaws, at least.

Yah I felt they played Gwen a bit safe in the movie. I was a little disappointed in it, actually. She did well with the material she had, which was mostly about the chemistry between her and Peter. But then she was fairly unreactive about her father's death (especially when compared with the comics) and with the fact that Peter was sort of not there for her through the whole thing.

I thought all she had going for was her chemistry with Garfield. But I wasn't really all that impressed with that movie.

[thetrellan]

I thought all she had going for was her chemistry with Garfield. But I wasn't really all that impressed with that movie.

Me neither. I liked that it was darker, but a lot of it seemed rushed plotwise. And there was the fact that, once again, his identity was uncovered. It's like there's some rule that he must be outed at least once in every film. They should have just stitched Peter's name and address into the costume from the start.

[charlesthehammer]

Oh yeah, Captain Stacy had to die. But nobody ever asks for him to come back.

You wanna know what stories made me cry? I don't know if you want the answer to that question.

I wouldn't be shocked if there was someone. Every character who has died has some proponent. The numbers tend to grow based on focus the character received.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

SOME Women will. But Gwen is not SOME woman, she is a SPECIFIC woman who has pre-defined character traits and personalty. In REAL LIFE, there are millions of different people with millions of different personalities, and they all act in their own way in each situation. An unrealistic Mannequin does what the story demands regardless of its part of their personality. A REAL person in REAL life woudl act as that person's personality and traits demand. Characters in a story should be realistic. And that means doing what they would do, not what the plot demands. Your position is a little bit sexist and a lotta bit "BUT I WANT IT TO BE THIS WAY!!!!!".

The JMS Gwen is just another bad person who made a bad decision and suffered a bad consequence as a result. There's no power to that. It happens in Punisher every issue, even if you don't know the names of those bad people making bad decisions and suffering bad consequences.

My "position" isn't sexist at all. I don't idealize women or men and speak from experience and those of friends and associates. JMS' Gwen wasn't a "bad" person, she was a person who made a bad decision and was, in effect, an extension of the Gwen we all knew but one who acted as some real-life humans have been known to behave.

I don't contest your right to dislike the story but your argument has always said "This isn't Gwen" when it actually is because other than this tragic mistake, this was the only thing that was different from what we had seen before. And hiding her children from their power-mad dad was an action of self sacrifice. Now the 'Ultimate' Gwen Stacy's waving a switch-blade around, THAT was completely out-of-character because her father was a Police Captain and she knew that carrying a concealed knife over a certain length is ILLEGAL--at least in my state.

Also, you pointed out that Peter was "there" for Gwen. I haven't read the story in a while so I ask sincerely, if he was "there"--how did she manage to get on the plane to England without him seeing her off. I suspect that Spidey-related affairs interfered, so that just proves my point--he was "The Man Who Wasn't There" yet again! And then, he made it to England but because Spidey had to stop some criminals, he reasoned that Gwen shouldn't see Parker and Spidey in England together. So, here was the woman many have said was his first "true" love, but he chose to keep his Spidey I.D. a secret over the woman he supposedly loved. Again and again, the myth of the depth of their love just doesn't hold up to close scrutiny. And yes, before she died, Gwen did indeed see Harry turn to drugs a second time-- it was one of the things that caused Norman Osborn to "Gobble-Up" once again. And this is why JMS' story has more plausibility than what "originally" happened. Gwen was upset over Harry's plight, she was concerned for her kids, she might have been waiting in Peter's apartment to make a confession or an invitation to return with her to France--the story fits in almost perfectly, which is why I enjoy it so much.

I normally don't like "The Story behind the Story" either, like with Brubaker's Bucky Barnes retcon, so I do sympathize with you. You can't stand "Sins Past" and I will never warm up to "Winter Soldier" and won't buy any comic related to him or that retcon. That's part of the fun with collecting comics and participating in forums like this one.

[LEADER DESSLOK]

If you really want to go progress then Peter hasn't made much even when married. The progress he made was got married basically that was it. That is the problem of relying on a characters personal life, but being unable to actually do things that have any lasting impact.

Edit: Though I do wish his default SQ wasn't to be a whiny manchild. He kind of got shafted there.

I agree. The problem is that he became TOO SUCCESSFUL, he bucked the trend set by Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman (Pre-Perez) in the sense that Parker made any changes at all. When I read the DITKO41 for the first time, I was shocked to find that he was in high school when he first became Spider-Man AND they allowed him to graduate!

These days Stan Lee has expressed some regret that he and Ditko allowed that to happen but I disagree with him, that was one of the things that made Spidey exceptional. In the extras from SPIDER-MAN 1, one of Marvel's people said that Spidey should be in high school in 2002! That's why I'm glad that I no longer read new Spidey stories, that statement tells me where their head is at concerning the Web-Head!