POLL: Spider-Man's Single Status

[Leocomix]

On the recommendation of a friend I tried LIFE WITH ARCHIE and I see why some are calling it "...the best comic currently on the market"! It's about a married Archie and unlike the other Archie books, it's written like a soap opera. Now I wonder where they got that idea from?

Great if you like it. You should definitely stick to things you enjoy. You must have some affinity for that kind of thing. That's not what Spider-Man is about though.

[Leocomix]

I still say Conway just didn't want to write about the Gwen/Peter romance. All of that other stuff is bull because it assumes Gwen needed breaking. Her father died, for crying out loud, and she blamed Peter's alter ego for it. How much more broken can you get? Conway didn't want to explore it is all. Yeah, her death made a great setup for the phenomenal second year of his ASM run, but it began Peter's eventual transformation into someone else.

It just seems funny that Gwen was replaced with MJ because Gwen wasn't broken enough, but, at the time, the reverse was true.

And having your girl give birth to the kids of either your best friend's father or your worst enemy isn't becoming "more of a match", it's actually creating and moving on to a life without you. And since Peter didn't fool around on her, how could you even figure that?

As for needing a better reason for her death, I actually prefer the Goblin being hopelessly insane to frighteningly rational about the misery he put Peter through.

Still Conway got his way with both Gwen and MJ and managed to turn her into a better (near-perfect?) match for Peter. Without his work we wouldn't be in the post-marriage repercussions mess that we are.
Gwen wasn't broken goods the way Peter was because she wasn't responsible for her dad's death.
Green Goblin is no less insane either way.

[Xenon]

Why I think Sins Past is good.

1) It was the first time a writer did something new with Gwen.
2) She came out as a stronger woman: she had birthed kids and she confronted Norman Osborn.
3) It provided a better reason for her death
4) It made her more of a match to Peter. Conway once said that Peter was broken and Gwen wasn't (actually, he rewrote MJ in Parallel Lives so that she would be broken too in order to be a match with Peter). Peter is this boy who made a huge mistake and is going to have to live the rest of his life with it. Now, Gwen was the same, a girl who made a big mistake with lifelong consequences.

Now, there is the matter of artistic execution and the tasteless face of Osborn that will always color people's perception of this story.

1) Peter being a serial rapist would be new. Still wouldn't be good.
2) She came out a weaker woman. Gwen confronted people all the damn time. She tells off AUNT MAY for crying out loud, and she was an open and honest person to boot. Sins Past makes her too scared to tell the man she loved the truth, too irresponsible to raise her children, too selfish to take responsibility.
3) It completely undermines the reason for her death in 121. Part of the dramatic strength of 121 is that Gwen died because Peter Parker DID act.
4) Even if you ignore the fact that that argument is nonsense (both in premise and because so little is known about Gwen as to make such a statement foolish), a lying, manipulative, cheating, irresponsible woman is not a better match for anyone trying to be a decent human being.

It wasn't just from reading earliar stories. It was how I read them. Once I started buying the ASM hardcovers that covered 20 stories a time (1-20, 21-40 etc) my understanding of the character and the book ASM got better. In a way, I appreciate the 90's for it's innovation and it's ability to tell different Spidey tales. Those guys, like the BND group, were rather fearless.
Over the years, I've read a bunch of comics, new and old, Spidey and not Spidey and I think my understanding of comics is better now. ASM, especially the Lee/Ditko Lee/Romita was a new tv show at the time, just as good as Homeland! haha What I'm trying to say is there's a certain excitement that comes with reading new stories with new characters. It's fun to read a new Greeen Goblin story but because he isn't a new character, we come in with baggage. We know he's Norman Osborn. This is a huge deal! It took something like 25 issues for that revelation to come out! How cool is that? It was a new tv show with a new mythology and it was soapy. The 70's was the same. That early 80's started the swing and the late 80's finished it off.

I praise 80's Spidey as back when I started reading, I actually got into the 80's stuff before the 70's and 60's stories. I think BND was an attempt to get back to the 80's premarried material and now I get why. It's where our single Peter is frozen. Mid 20's, out of school, not married, bouncing from job to job trying to find his way.

I love the 90's and I'm still, and always will be a fan of the marriage. With that said, you can't deny that 90's Spider-Man was a departure from the 60's and 70's. There's nothing wrong with that as long as that status doesn't continue down its path. You can't have a 40 year old Peter Parker in the Marvel Universe. It doesn't fit.

So the 90's was fun. JMS in the 2000's wrote a great Peter and MJ married but that too had to end.

The problem with an argument like "everything has to end" in this situation is that it can just as easily be applied to his single life. "His life as a bachelor had to end". The argument is that progress must stop at a certain point, a problematic argument for Spider-Man no matter what, but if that's the argument, WHERE he must stop his progress is not an argument that has an automatic right answer. Why stop at just a job bouncing single guy? Why not college? Why not High School?

The fact is, the Spider-Man of the 80s was a departure of the Spider-Man of the 70s, and the Spider-Man of the 70s and late 60s is a huge departure from the Spider-Man of the early 60s. The only consistent factor in Spider-Man is progress. And Mrs. Muggins Apartment.

[RyanParkerMan]

1) Peter being a serial rapist would be new. Still wouldn't be good.
2) She came out a weaker woman. Gwen confronted people all the damn time. She tells off AUNT MAY for crying out loud, and she was an open and honest person to boot. Sins Past makes her too scared to tell the man she loved the truth, too irresponsible to raise her children, too selfish to take responsibility.
3) It completely undermines the reason for her death in 121. Part of the dramatic strength of 121 is that Gwen died because Peter Parker DID act.
4) Even if you ignore the fact that that argument is nonsense (both in premise and because so little is known about Gwen as to make such a statement foolish), a lying, manipulative, cheating, irresponsible woman is not a better match for anyone trying to be a decent human being.



The problem with an argument like "everything has to end" in this situation is that it can just as easily be applied to his single life. "His life as a bachelor had to end". The argument is that progress must stop at a certain point, a problematic argument for Spider-Man no matter what, but if that's the argument, WHERE he must stop his progress is not an argument that has an automatic right answer. Why stop at just a job bouncing single guy? Why not college? Why not High School?

The fact is, the Spider-Man of the 80s was a departure of the Spider-Man of the 70s, and the Spider-Man of the 70s and late 60s is a huge departure from the Spider-Man of the early 60s. The only consistent factor in Spider-Man is progress. And Mrs. Muggins Apartment.

Serial fiction only becomes problematic when you all progress in the first place. Peter's good where he is right now. When he eventually returns the book needs some romantic drama. It's been lacking that for quite some time now.

[Xenon]

Serial fiction only becomes problematic when you all progress in the first place. Peter's good where he is right now. When he eventually returns the book needs some romantic drama. It's been lacking that for quite some time now.

1) Well, right now he's dead.
2) Eternal Serial fiction has a problem with Progress. But that doesn't change the fact that Spider-Man has ALWAYS been about progress. Nor does it change the fact that freezing him in the position they froze him in is just a matter of preference, and done so at the cost of years of continuity and progress.
3) And it always will lack romantic drama. Because we already got the answer to that question. That act of his life is as over as him being in High School or undergraduate college. Some things you can't get back no matter how much you want them.

[Scott Taylor]

Xenon, I don't see how she is weaker because of making a poor decision. She handled what she needed to do as a consequence of the poor decision, everything except talking with Peter. In comparison, Peter has also never told Aunt May about the role he had in Uncle Ben's murder. Is he weak as well?

[Xenon]

Xenon, I don't see how she is weaker because of making a poor decision. She handled what she needed to do as a consequence of the poor decision, everything except talking with Peter. In comparison, Peter has also never told Aunt May about the role he had in Uncle Ben's murder. Is he weak as well?

She's weaker for having made a poor (nonsensical decision) decision, especially considering all the relationships involved (even ignoring Peter, how hurt do you think Harry would be), just as Peter's decisions to withhold his role would also mean he's not as strong (mind you, that doesn't mean he's weak overall, just that that inability would make him weaker) as he would be if he revealed it*. But one poor decision isn't a big deal. What IS a big deal is the compounding bad decisions. That's what really makes her weaker. She cheats on Peter, then hides her pregnancy, and abandons her kids in France because she doesn't want her reputation or relationship to suffer (note that even if she felt incapable of raising them herself or feared that she alone could not challenge Norman, the whole point of going to Europe was to live with her UNCLE IN LONDON). That's not ONE bad decision. That's a series of bad decisions in an attempt to get everything she wants with no concern for who is hurt in the process.


*Incidentally, he did tell Aunt May about that. In the issue where he and Aunt May talk it all over, he immediately comes clean with the fact that he let the burglar get away that ended up killing Uncle Ben. Aunt May responds by telling him that she felt responsible because the only reason Ben was outside was because they had had a stupid fight, and she was too prideful to call him to come back inside.

[Meehaul]

I don't see the fact we will never see Pete marry again any more problematic than the fact we will never see him truly "die" at the hands of a foe. I know exactly how Romeo & Juliette turns out. Yet, I love to re-read it for the story itself (not to mention the language, the aesthetic appeal, etc). In a similar vein, I can appreciate romantic tension in ASM, even recognizing it won't lead to marriage, family, old age, and death--just like I can appreciate dramatic life and death struggles even though I know Pete's not going anywhere for the long term. I recognize that's a function of the medium itself and I'm fine with that. It's all about the execution of the story.

[thetrellan]

Sometimes artists make better writers and vice-versa. Did you know that Marv Wolfman, Alan Moore and Jim Shooter were also artists? I have an AVENGERS that has Jim Shooter credited as the artist and perhaps also the writer because it was published during his first scripting tenure. I guess he wanted to show some of those who were missing their deadlines that good work can be done on time! I didn't think it was exceptional and who knows how much the inker may have "fixed" certain drawing errors but it was a decent effort. Marv Wolfman was an art teacher and fanzine publisher (who published one of Stephen King's early stories!) and Alan Moore is known for sometimes (if not always) accompanying his scripts with very detailed page layouts on typing paper! And don't even get me started on Harvey Kurtzman or the Jacks Kirby and Cole!

Yeah, I knew because I saw something like that too. Unexceptional, I agree, but acceptable compared to the normal art on the book, as I recall. Don't know if it was the same Avengers story, but I know it's not the only time he's done that, or even the last. I also heard he restricted his colorists to a specific palette, which explains the washed out look Marvel comics had back then (when the printers weren't running out of ink, I mean).

I wasn't suggesting artists should never write, just commenting on the irony of two guys in charge of Marvel in their own times who both seem(ed) to be mishandling the company's direction, but in different ways. Some might call them opposites, but of course the truth is more complicated than that, and most people are more similar than dissimilar anyhow.

As for Quesada, Having read his work, I can tell you that I like it just fine. It's his management which worries me. But since you can't believe everything you hear, all I can say is the jury's still out on that one.

[thetrellan]

I wad referring to Young Romance, which is considered the first romance comic. An introduction to a collection of Simon & Kirby reprints said that Simon & Kirby were trying to do a serious version of the romantic travails depicted in Archie.

There was a twenty year gap between the publication of Amazing Spider-Man Annual #21 and Archie #600. So I don't think there's a major influence over the Spider-Man comics over the Archie books.

If anything, it was a lot like the marriage of the Superman and Lois Lane of Earth 2, published in 1978.

Come to think of it, the whole Gwen/MJ/Petey bit, with the whole gang hanging out at the Caffeine Bean was a lot like Archie's situation with Betty and Veronica. Peter was into Gwen, but MJ was always flirting with him. That would make Harry into Reggie and Flash into Moose. lol

[RyanParkerMan]

1) Well, right now he's dead.
2) Eternal Serial fiction has a problem with Progress. But that doesn't change the fact that Spider-Man has ALWAYS been about progress. Nor does it change the fact that freezing him in the position they froze him in is just a matter of preference, and done so at the cost of years of continuity and progress.
3) And it always will lack romantic drama. Because we already got the answer to that question. That act of his life is as over as him being in High School or undergraduate college. Some things you can't get back no matter how much you want them.

I'm not disagreeing that Spider-Man is about progress. It is. As for romantic drama being "done" in the book. I totally disagree with you here. That act isn't done. Technically, even for people who are married, that act isn't done. Peter's single right now. It's not impossible for him to get into another love triangle. He's only 25. Anything can happen for him.

[thetrellan]

1) Peter being a serial rapist would be new. Still wouldn't be good.
2) She came out a weaker woman. Gwen confronted people all the damn time. She tells off AUNT MAY for crying out loud, and she was an open and honest person to boot. Sins Past makes her too scared to tell the man she loved the truth, too irresponsible to raise her children, too selfish to take responsibility.
3) It completely undermines the reason for her death in 121. Part of the dramatic strength of 121 is that Gwen died because Peter Parker DID act.
4) Even if you ignore the fact that that argument is nonsense (both in premise and because so little is known about Gwen as to make such a statement foolish), a lying, manipulative, cheating, irresponsible woman is not a better match for anyone trying to be a decent human being.

Thank You! So many people seem to think the Gwen sleeping around on Peter somehow makes her a more realistic character. Well, maybe that's what those people would do, but someone head over heels in love would not look for it elsewhere, and certainly not someone as loyal as Gwen. And not with the middle-aged father of Peter's best friend! It would be easier for me to believe that MJ had an affair with her photographer, or the male lead in a film she was acting in.

[Xenon]

I'm not disagreeing that Spider-Man is about progress. It is. As for romantic drama being "done" in the book. I totally disagree with you here. That act isn't done. Technically, even for people who are married, that act isn't done. Peter's single right now. It's not impossible for him to get into another love triangle. He's only 25. Anything can happen for him.

From a story perspective, not really. At least, nothing that's good. Romance stories are about finding your "true love",and the drama involved in them is trying to figure out if this is the one or, in occasions where the "true love" has died, the drama comes from whether the character can overcome that loss and love again. Spider-Man has clearly established a true love for Peter Parker. Arguably two, but the first died. When Peter Parker decided he could marry that woman, the romance story track was basically done. And if that wasn't enough, One More Day further solidified that track by calling it the type of love that can only happen once in a millennium. Anyone else Peter Parker gets with is going to be second best. She's going to be settling and therefore unsatisfying from a story perspective. That's not romance.

And frankly, you're simply never going to be able to come up with another character that will be able to challenge Mary Jane. Gwen and Felicia, arguably. But she's one of Stan's original characters. They were married for twenty years, he asked her to marry him TWICE. Anyone they introduce at this point will feel second-rate at best. It's not quite Lois Lane, but it'd damn close.

For a character like Spider-Man, Progress is necessary. Which means an ending is necessary. At some point, they're either going to have to accept that or watch the quality go down the tubes.

[Meehaul]

From a story perspective, not really. At least, nothing that's good. Romance stories are about finding your "true love",and the drama involved in them is trying to figure out if this is the one or, in occasions where the "true love" has died, the drama comes from whether the character can overcome that loss and love again. Spider-Man has clearly established a true love for Peter Parker. Arguably two, but the first died. When Peter Parker decided he could marry that woman, the romance story track was basically done. And if that wasn't enough, One More Day further solidified that track by calling it the type of love that can only happen once in a millennium. Anyone else Peter Parker gets with is going to be second best. She's going to be settling and therefore unsatisfying from a story perspective. That's not romance.

And frankly, you're simply never going to be able to come up with another character that will be able to challenge Mary Jane. Gwen and Felicia, arguably. But she's one of Stan's original characters. They were married for twenty years, he asked her to marry him TWICE. Anyone they introduce at this point will feel second-rate at best. It's not quite Lois Lane, but it'd damn close.

For a character like Spider-Man, Progress is necessary. Which means an ending is necessary. At some point, they're either going to have to accept that or watch the quality go down the tubes.

Progression is unnecessary (see, eg, Batman, Superman, et al). It's all just the "illusion" of progression--little actual progress really happens. Everything depends upon the stories, the art and the momentum. Time erases nearly everything. Leave MJ out of the book for 20 years and introduce a new "true love" and that will be the love for a new generation of fans. Plenty of fans knew little of Gwen and less of Betty. When Gwen died, fandom didn't think she could be replaced. When the marriage ended in OMD, many thought it HAD to come back. Five years on, and MJ has barly made much of a ripple in the book. Back in the 80's, no one thought a new villain could challenge Doc Ock or the GG as a "prime" Spidey villain--but Venom became arguably the most popular Spidey foe of all. Time changes everything.

[Scott Taylor]

She's weaker for having made a poor (nonsensical decision) decision, especially considering all the relationships involved (even ignoring Peter, how hurt do you think Harry would be), just as Peter's decisions to withhold his role would also mean he's not as strong (mind you, that doesn't mean he's weak overall, just that that inability would make him weaker) as he would be if he revealed it*. But one poor decision isn't a big deal. What IS a big deal is the compounding bad decisions. That's what really makes her weaker. She cheats on Peter, then hides her pregnancy, and abandons her kids in France because she doesn't want her reputation or relationship to suffer (note that even if she felt incapable of raising them herself or feared that she alone could not challenge Norman, the whole point of going to Europe was to live with her UNCLE IN LONDON). That's not ONE bad decision. That's a series of bad decisions in an attempt to get everything she wants with no concern for who is hurt in the process.

I don't look at it that way, obviously. All of those are one and the same decision - to hide the fact that she got pregnant. She did not want to abort the kids, for whatever reason. So to follow through with her decision to keep it secret, she had to do the other things. They were not a series of bad decisions, they were just consequences of her one decision. Just as almost everything Peter has done as Spider-Man has involved a lie of one kind or another to keep the secret from those he loved.

*Incidentally, he did tell Aunt May about that. In the issue where he and Aunt May talk it all over, he immediately comes clean with the fact that he let the burglar get away that ended up killing Uncle Ben. Aunt May responds by telling him that she felt responsible because the only reason Ben was outside was because they had had a stupid fight, and she was too prideful to call him to come back inside.

Aunt May in that issue also was pissed at him because he lied to her not just once but for years. A lie like that compounds on itself. May felt betrayed not once, but an incomprehensible number of times. Every single time he was gone for some lame reason, it was because of his double life. A few times May was on her deathbed all alone because instead of being with her, he was out being Spider-Man. Bendis handled this logical aspect of the confession well, too, similar to JMS.