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  1. #271
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Moon View Post
    You guys noticed the godamn batman is banned, right? I'm assuming he can't answer those questions, facetious or otherwise, unless CBR lifts bans or something here.
    No, he can see the posts. He just cannot respond to them. I was IP banned by accident a couple of times, ten years back and that's what happens. That was when I had an AOL account.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark
    I know telling kids not to do something doesn't stop them, at least not all of them. All I am saying is stop proclaiming it should be legal or that it isn't morally wrong to do. Because it is neither.
    I never once said that either. I never said it should be legal, nor that it was morally wrong to use torrents. Do pay closer attention to who you speak to and not lump everyone in the same category. The only thing I have said is that you can take music from CD's purchased by the public library, which right now, is not considered illegal and make copies for yourself. The moral issue varies from person to person. I do not use torrents because of potential virus and spyware hazards. Nor have I ever bought a bootleg copy of a film. The only other thing I've done is use Youtube To MP3 convertors, which anyone who uses Youtube would know about since I've seen people ask about them all the time, to get music that is out of print.

    You just don't get the point, do you? We cannot decide which laws are stupid and which laws are ones to follow. We cannot decide which laws to obey based on whether we find them stupid or not. We as a society are supposed to obey all the laws. So the whole idea of ignoring a law because it is stupid puts you in the category you are trying to put me into.
    Actually, we can. That's why people break the law. We chose to follow the ones we agree with and break the ones that we disagree with. Sure, you can pay a price. Or you can never because you're lucky enough to not get caught.

  2. #272
    Senior Member J. Robb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    As much as everyone here keeps saying that the laws need to be changed, that isn't what the conversation is about.
    It's a totally valid conversation, related to the topic.

    But don't let me stop your law and order crusade, I'm sure it's getting you lots of keyboard warrior points. You must be close to leveling up.

  3. #273
    Veteran Member Simbob4000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    You can't even follow the line of conversation correctly. I never said anything about taping off of TV. I was commenting on the similarity of stealing a disc from a store and Downloading a digital copy. Taping off of TV is a different beast, and I don't know how the courts look at it... but someone has paid for the right to broadcast it, so it isn't the same as downloading a free copy that no one paid for the right to distribute it in that way.
    You're the one who can't even follow the conversation, I'm the one that said something about taping stuff off TV and other things, you replied to my post; it's ok, I sure you were so blinded by rage when you posted you didn't even see what you were replying to.



    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    for the last FUCKING time... Those crimes are not the same and should not be treated the same. I have NEVER suggested that despite EVERYONES assertion that I did. All I said is that like all those other illegal activities (car theft, purse snatching, etc...) downloading is a crime (and a federal crime at that).

    Stop putting words in my mouth.

    For the last fucking, wait, I'm sorry, FUCKING time? That's the kind of thing you say when you've been belaboring the point for awhile, you don't start off with that when it's the first time you're saying something to someone.

    I said it isn't like taking a real physically thing; you started off classy like always, and than said:


    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    Get your head out of your ass! It is EXACTLY like that. Stealing is Stealing, regardless of if the theft is physical property, intellectual property, etc... To claim it isn't is to show your BLATANT ignorance of the facts, and the law.

    It doesn't matter if you give a shit about how the copyright law is written, it is still theft. Period.
    So...you said those crimes aren't the same, but you've also said that downloading a movie is EXACTLY like going into a store and stealing a movie?

  4. #274

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    That's fine. Be curious. That is a good thing. But MOST people use that argument to justify piracy, saying it doesn't hurt the industry. And the copyright laws are in place because unchecked it does hurt the industry. As much as everyone here keeps saying that the laws need to be changed, that isn't what the conversation is about. It is about the fact that as of right now, it is a federal offense and should be considered as such whenever you think about or actually download copyrighted material.

    Get caught and it could ruin your life. Federal convictions do not get expunged from your record.
    One likely cannot truly justify as the basic idea is if someone is selling a product the only way to get it legally would be to purchase it. I am sure some industries are affected to some degree, the huge ones likely not too much. Could have an effect on comics depending which ones. Even though it may not be the right thing to do, someone downloading any given product that either could or would not have paid for it is not truly hurting anyone because it is a copy no one knows effects, they is no true loss there and the worst that could happen is a lost sale. Of course that does not mean we all should download everything, if we cannot afford it I imagine we just have to wait, and if any of us feel something is so horrible and not worth any money then why download it at all.

    I know the library debate does not always hold up, yes they paid for it etc.. however the concept can still be used, people that read and delete, watch and delete, download a program and delete etc... if they never intended to purchase said item that is the same idea. (right or wrong is up to anyone on a moral level, illegal based on the law though) There line of thinking is all about possible damages, be really curious what that number is.

    I have heard some people that could afford a lot more then they purchase yet they prefer the compact nature of downloads, and like to have it in the format they prefer. Sure the idea is appealing of having thousand of comics in something the size of a deck of cards, also nice to buy what you really like and limit it. I really do not need every single thing I read, just as I do not need to own every show or movie I watch, yes, I enjoy it, does not mean I have to have it. Some people will just download anything and everything because they can, most will just sit there.
    Last edited by Xiroteus; 01-07-2013 at 11:04 PM.

  5. #275
    Senior Member momaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    ... that isn't what the conversation is about.
    But that's the conversation everyone else here is having. You just want it to be about something else. Your conversation starts and ends with "it's illegal". And while yes it is illegal, you're not interested in anything but that. This is a complex issue and the conversation is broader than your tiresome parroting of the same mantra.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    You just don't get the point, do you? We cannot decide which laws are stupid and which laws are ones to follow. We cannot decide which laws to obey based on whether we find them stupid or not. We as a society are supposed to obey all the laws. So the whole idea of ignoring a law because it is stupid puts you in the category you are trying to put me into.
    Until recently homosexuality was illegal (and still is) in many places. Segregation of the races was the law until very recent times. Blindly following laws is not what society should do. Now to be clear, I'm not comparing this to piracy or condoning piracy, just pointing out that it is ludicrous to say that the law is the law is the law and we should follow them all like lambs to the slaughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiroteus View Post
    I know the library debate does not always hold up, yes they paid for it etc.. however the concept can still be used, people that read and delete, watch and delete, download a program and delete etc... if they never intended to purchase said item that is the same idea. (right or wrong is up to anyone on a moral level, illegal based on the law though) There line of thinking is all about possible damages, be really curious what that number is.
    And herein lies the problem, the law for "copies" of material is not applied consistently. In some cases it's clear cut illegal. Sometimes you are allowed to copy stuff. Sometime a copy is allowed if it is deleted after viewing and not kept. Sometimes it's time bound. I can tape Walking Dead on my Tivo and invite as many friends over as I like to watch it. My room mate can stream it from my Tivo to his Tivo in his room no problem. But if I transfer it to my harddrive and my friend streams it via the internet to his house it's illegal. None of these acts are manifestly different. My friend in another house did exactly as what my room mate did, but he's now a criminal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiroteus View Post
    I have heard some people that could afford a lot more then they purchase yet they prefer the compact nature of downloads, and like to have it in the format they prefer. Sure the idea is appealing of having thousand of comics in something the size of a deck of cards, also nice to buy what you really like and limit it. I really do not need every single thing I read, just as I do not need to own every show or movie I watch, yes, I enjoy it, does not mean I have to have it. Some people will just download anything and everything because they can, most will just sit there.
    I know people who will buy a legal copy of something so they can then turn it into an illegal copy. Not to distribute, but because they like their media digital for convenience and space saving.
    Last edited by momaw; 01-08-2013 at 02:47 AM.

  6. #276

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    Quote Originally Posted by momaw View Post


    And herein lies the problem, the law for "copies" of material is not applied consistently. In some cases it's clear cut illegal. Sometimes you are allowed to copy stuff. Sometime a copy is allowed if it is deleted after viewing and not kept. Sometimes it's time bound. I can tape Walking Dead on my Tivo and invite as many friends over as I like to watch it. My room mate can stream it from my Tivo to his Tivo in his room no problem. But if I transfer it to my harddrive and my friend streams it via the internet to his house it's illegal. None of these acts are manifestly different. My friend in another house did exactly as what my room mate did, but he's now a criminal.
    That example is where one is legal and one is not yet the end result is the same, another thing is those who record television shows to keep, that is something people did for a LONG time and never thought anything of it, people still do it. I know people that just want to watch something so they find a way to stream or download it and just delete it, personally I do not see the issue, they have cable, they may have missed it or their dvr messed up and just want to watch the show said network cannot bother to have online. There is nothing really lost from people doing that.

    Another example on a smaller scale, someone wants to show a friend lets say something small (comic) they take some high res photos or scan it just so they can read and delete, that basically adds up to handing your friend that single issue to read. There are some cases that it really is not that big of a deal and other times it is. When it comes to personal judgement of others, nah, there are just too many others things people do that I find more important to take issue with. I likely would take more issue someone being rude all the time then to someone who downloads music online.

    I rather just buy what I can when I can, I have noticed some people that get mixed up in torrents can do so too much, just too easy to download almost anything they want, end up spending more time downloading then using it. Digital hoarder.

  7. #277
    Ultimate Mod! Plawsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    I never once said that either. I never said it should be legal, nor that it was morally wrong to use torrents. Do pay closer attention to who you speak to and not lump everyone in the same category. The only thing I have said is that you can take music from CD's purchased by the public library, which right now, is not considered illegal and make copies for yourself. The moral issue varies from person to person. I do not use torrents because of potential virus and spyware hazards. Nor have I ever bought a bootleg copy of a film. The only other thing I've done is use Youtube To MP3 convertors, which anyone who uses Youtube would know about since I've seen people ask about them all the time, to get music that is out of print.
    Just for the record, the copies from a library are not legal, just like copies from a friend's CD are not. The library giving you permission does not make it legal. Now, that's not something you're ever likely to get in trouble for, because they have bigger problems to deal with.

    I also agree that downloading is not exactly the same as stealing from a store. In one case, you're stealing a product that the store has paid the record company for. In the other, you're just stealing a sale straight from the record company.

    In the end, as many have said, this conversation isn't about legality. It's about fixing the problem. However, not many people are offering up anything in the debate.
    I like Ultimate Comics. - Read them with us!

    I also buy: Captain America, Avengers, FF, New Avengers, X-Factor, among others

  8. #278
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    Fuck it. I'm done. Pirate to your hearts content if you like, or don't. I am tired of arguing it. It's obvious those who want to defend piracy as "not bad" or "shouldn't be illegal" aren't going to change their minds. I hope you are right and you never get caught. But if you do get caught, prosecuted and fined or imprisoned... Maybe then you might re-evaluate your positions. But I kind of doubt it.

    And at that point it will be too late. The damage to your life will be done.

  9. #279
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by momaw
    And herein lies the problem, the law for "copies" of material is not applied consistently. In some cases it's clear cut illegal. Sometimes you are allowed to copy stuff. Sometime a copy is allowed if it is deleted after viewing and not kept. Sometimes it's time bound. I can tape Walking Dead on my Tivo and invite as many friends over as I like to watch it. My room mate can stream it from my Tivo to his Tivo in his room no problem. But if I transfer it to my harddrive and my friend streams it via the internet to his house it's illegal. None of these acts are manifestly different. My friend in another house did exactly as what my room mate did, but he's now a criminal.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Plawsky
    Just for the record, the copies from a library are not legal, just like copies from a friend's CD are not. The library giving you permission does not make it legal. Now, that's not something you're ever likely to get in trouble for, because they have bigger problems to deal with.
    That's kinda my point. They're not going to come after you for doing that. If it was an issue, the library wouldn't be offering up blank CD's.

    Fuck it. I'm done. Pirate to your hearts content if you like, or don't. I am tired of arguing it. It's obvious those who want to defend piracy as "not bad" or "shouldn't be illegal" aren't going to change their minds. I hope you are right and you never get caught. But if you do get caught, prosecuted and fined or imprisoned... Maybe then you might re-evaluate your positions. But I kind of doubt it.

    And at that point it will be too late. The damage to your life will be done.
    Again, why do you care what we do? You live your life and we live ours.

  10. #280

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    Fuck it. I'm done. Pirate to your hearts content if you like, or don't. I am tired of arguing it. It's obvious those who want to defend piracy as "not bad" or "shouldn't be illegal" aren't going to change their minds. I hope you are right and you never get caught. But if you do get caught, prosecuted and fined or imprisoned... Maybe then you might re-evaluate your positions. But I kind of doubt it.

    And at that point it will be too late. The damage to your life will be done.
    I am sure a lot of on this topic no not pirate at all, I can say I have no pirated content on or off my computer because that is something I do not wish to partake in, however when I debate the subject I will discuss different ideas that make sense. Another factor is MOST do not get caught nor does anything bad happen to them, if that was the case millions would be in trouble. So most that download in this manner feel it is worth the risk. I know I am not defending in, just speaking about what I believe to be facts, none of us can tell people that create content that it should be okay for us to have it for me, that is up to them.

  11. #281
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    I NEVER said that Speeding, piracy, rape and murder were exactly the same? I used Rape as an example of a law that isn't made legal just because someone may think that it shouldn't be illegal.
    Who thinks that????

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    But you still broke the law downloading it. That is my point.
    Yes, we know: you keep repeating it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    Even though you had seen it in the theater and plan to buy a legal copy, that doesn't change the fact that you committed a federal crime by downloading it. And now you have confessed to it in public.
    ...and now nothing will happen to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    I know telling kids not to do something doesn't stop them, at least not all of them. All I am saying is stop proclaiming it should be legal
    Wait, you've gone from "it's illegal" to "you're not allowed to argue it should be legal"? What's the point of a debate thread if you just tell the opposing posters "stop saying that"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    If it is available to you legally a week later, why break the law. Is seeing it a week earlier really worth the inherent risks involved with downloading something illegally?
    Well...it is The Walking Dead...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    You just don't get the point, do you? We cannot decide which laws are stupid and which laws are ones to follow.
    How...fascist. So much for of the people, by the people and for the people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    Fuck it. I'm done. Pirate to your hearts content if you like, or don't. I am tired of arguing it. It's obvious those who want to defend piracy as "not bad" or "shouldn't be illegal" aren't going to change their minds.
    Well, you didn't really give us a reason to other than repeating that it's illegal over and over again...
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  12. #282
    Junior Member Hardcase678's Avatar
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    I would have been extremely surprised if they were not on the list. I do believe twilight made the list as well, but it's most likely due to the fact no one wanted to waste money on it.

  13. #283
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dupersuper View Post
    Who thinks that????
    Obviously, people who rape think that.

    As for the rest. I said I am done with the debate. And I am not going to let your calling me a fascist change that.

  14. #284
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Well, the fact that you even came in here to respond to that, shows you're not completely done.

  15. #285
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    I am not going to let someone trash me behind my back (by calling me a fascist, for example) without defending myself. But as for the main discussion, I am done. So until people stop resurrecting the thread or a mod sees that it has run its course and locks it down, I will keep a loose eye on it. But I am not going to get into it with anyone any more. I am sick and tired of it. Pirates are going to pirate. Period. I am done pissing in the wind.

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