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  1. #76
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    I'm not arguing that. I know things cost money, but I don't think they need to cost what is spent these days.

    also, holy shit, I've gone way off track, but that's the nature of conversation.. I've enjoyed conversing, for whatever that's worth. I enjoy the discussion, the theoretical etc.
    so now you want to determine the cost/value of sets, makeup artists, wardrobe and vehicle rental, and production equipment?

    if we are going to go off track, let's go off track
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  2. #77
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    I watched Battleship, and if it wasn't free, and without having to get off my couch that Sunday, I would never have seen it. so yes, it's a valid argument.

    I also downloaded Looper after seeing it in the theater, and I'll be buying the DVD, but I wanted to see it again, so I downloaded it. there's lots of reasons people torrent movies and it isn't simply because they're criminals, or cheap. it isn't as black and white as you'd like it to be.
    I'd have to agree there are lots of different "torrenters" if you will. I know people who download things and if they genuinely like them, they buy them. I know people who are just cheap bastards who download things they'd of paid money to otherwise see. I also know people who tend to download things they know they'd never buy.

    I'm not saying any of these are in the right, but yes I'd say not every person who illegally downloads is the same. Of course they are still all technically criminals.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    so now you want to determine the cost/value of sets, makeup artists, wardrobe and vehicle rental, and production equipment?
    no, I think actors and directors are wildly overpaid. it is amounts of money that nobody needs. they jsut don't need that kind of money, and if that guy or girl having such an excess is why it cost $15 fucking dollars to see a movie, then that's why people are torrenting movies. movies that are often not good. why is everyone making so much money to produce absolute garbage?

    I think it's ridiculous.

    and I like movies. I value the craft of actors. I just don't think it's a cost/value ratio that really balances out when I weight it against my entertainment.

  4. #79
    Rargh! Alex's Avatar
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    Videogames make more money than movies as abusiness don't they?
    I'd like to see what your average programmer or game director gets paid.

  5. #80
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex View Post
    Videogames make more money than movies as abusiness don't they?
    I'd like to see what your average programmer or game director gets paid.
    depending on the company, it probably has a wide range
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  6. #81
    Ultimate Mod! Plawsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treqqor View Post
    Playing devil's advocate:
    You live in a country that doesn't have the channel that plays the show you want to watch, Hulu doesn't work in your country and Netflix is also a joke in your country.
    Does this fall under the "You can't always get what you want and you'll just have to hope in 5 years it's playing somewhere you can access and hopefully you're still interested" clause?
    (Granted, not arguing against the legalities or the law, not by any means, things just aren't always as simple as "It's free on Hulu, just load that up!")

    And it's not just the North American shows that are necessarily in demand to watch (which also might mean their lost ad revenue may not even apply)
    Yeah, I mentioned earlier that things in other countries are circumstances that I'm not particularly familiar with. And that's certainly a much different issue than "I don't want to pay for it," because it's often "I can't pay for it, even if I want to." I'm just basing my knowledge off of what goes on in the US. And, from what I understand, much of the same applies to the UK and several other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    the problem for me is shitty content. most of the movies I've seen by less than legal means, I'm glad I didn't pay for. they weren't worth paying for. most of the movies I've paid for were worth paying for and I don't have a problem with a single penny spent.
    Then why watch them? If these movies are so bad that they're not even worth a dollar, then why do you watch them? You clearly knew Battleship was going to be bad. No one made you watch it. Yet you watched it anyway. I know a lot of people (myself included) like to watch bad movies to laugh at them or make fun of them or whatever, but that doesn't mean you should get to watch it for free.

    What you're saying is "I want to watch this movie (for whatever reason), but I shouldn't have to pay for it because it sucks."

    If you don't want to support a crappy product, don't use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    remember the part where I said I get that?

    I'm just talking. I'm just putting ideas out there. there's a conversation to be had about why people are downloading instead. Hulu was great until they just made it regular tv. now I don't use it. also, I had to create an account to watch a "mature" program. I could torrent it faster than it would take to create an account. that same show is on television and I don't need to create an account to watch it.
    I'm sorry, but the five minutes (that you only have to spend once) it takes to register or the three minutes of ads are not any sort of valid justification for piracy. You're answering your own question by bringing up ads. Yes, ads suck, no one is going to disagree with you there. That's what DVDs and Netflix and DVR are for. If you don't think the cost of those methods are worth skipping the ads, then watch the ads. I don't think that a hamburger is worth $14, so I don't go to high end burger joints; but I don't steal their food because I think it should be free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Which is no different than when people would borrow someone else's copy of the album and record what they wanted, something I used to do back in the day, so they wouldn't have to buy it. As well as record off the radio, which dates back to the invention of the cassette tape. Then there was dubbing VHS films with two VCR's, which a lot of people did. The invention of the blank cassettes, DVD-R's and CD-R's made this a reality.
    You're right, those things are no different. And they're no more legal, either.

    The difference, however, between those things and internet piracy are the size and immediacy of the issue. Used to, you had to borrow a friend's tape to record it to yours, and that took time and effort, and it was limited to whether or not you had a friend with that tape that would let you borrow it. Now, one person could by a CD and upload it, and it's suddenly available to EVERYONE at the click of a button.

    And of course, borrowing your friend's video game so that you can play it and beat the game, without having to spend a dime. There's that old chestnut.
    But that is different. You're borrowing your friend's game, not copying it. You can't both play the game at the same time, because there's only one copy.

    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    which means the fucking entire internet has already spoiled Breaking Bad or The Walking Dead which is why people torrent it that night.
    You're seriously starting to reach with these justifications. That's what DVR is for. The DVR add-on for my cable package is an extra $7 per month. If spoilers are THAT big of a deal, I think that the $7 is more than well spent.

    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    who's hindering? Louie did exactly what everyone told him not to do. they literally told him to not release it with multi download, DRM Free, and streaming. he'd fail or whatever.
    the truth is, those people fear that option. it removes any control from the 'owner.' it lessens their profit. that's the people who don't make things. the people who only release it to make money.

    Louie put his art out there how people wanted it, at a reasonable price and made money hand over fist. over a million. in a weekend. then he gave a bunch of that money away because he doesn't need it.
    so people cry about how the industry is dying, but really, it's just the fat cat lifestyle that's dying. Metallica can't pay their therapist whatever crazy amount of money a day they were paying him and would have to act like adults all on their own. oh no, poor Metallica.
    You're looking at very extreme examples. Yes, Louie can afford to give away a lot of money, and he did a great release with a great delivery method. Not everyone can afford to do that. It worked for Louie because he's one of the biggest comedians in the world right now. And Metallica sells millions of records. The people who are REALLY affected are the indie bands who only sell thousands - if that - of records. And getting a record deal is near impossible now because of how the recording industry has been affected by downloads.

    So and so actor couldn't make millions of dollars for acting all day. only thousands. jeez... what a shame.
    How is that a justification for stealing a product? I don't think that Microsoft's CEO should be making the millions of dollars per year that he makes, but I don't steal laptops.

    The price of a movie ticket might be too much for you to justify. That's fine - you don't have to spend it. This has been said over and over again. You throw out $15 as a number like it's the only option. You can see movies for as low as a dollar as soon as they're out on DVD.
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  7. #82
    Rargh! Alex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    depending on the company, it probably has a wide range
    From what i've read, EA, who probably makes around the most money, employ an army of code monkeys, possibly actual monkeys.

  8. #83
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    hey, Plawsky, I appreciate you bothering to answer, but I'm probably not going to actually reply to any of your points. just fair warning.

    if you want to keep parroting the "it's illegal" line and "well I don't steal such and such" that's cool, but there isn't a less interesting conversation for me to have.
    I'm pretty busy these next few days, and I could have an interesting conversation about why piracy wins out, but I don't care to keep getting told that the illegal thing is illegal and you don't steal.

    I'm going to go watch a pirated movie!

  9. #84
    Senior Member PretenderNX01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vibranium View Post
    a lot of tv shows are made available either on demand or on the networks website shortly after air
    A lot but not all of them and with slow DSL speeds, streaming is next to impossible on Network sites or even on Hulu, I don't know what formats they use but I need something where I can load a whole file (like Youtube) and then watch it. Hence the pirating.

    If I said I pirate in place of DVRing (which still count for ratings if you watch in the first 3 days) I could see the argument that I'm being hypocritical. But I make the effort to give every creator their due. And I still care about graphics :p I get the 720s.

    -DVR - the only way you miss a show is user error or a rare device or power malfunction. And if you DO miss it, you can record one of the reruns. It's just a monthly cost on top of your cable bill, and it's not much more.
    -Hulu - it's free, and almost all network shows are put up the next day, and they stay up for a few weeks.
    -On demand - if you get premium cable, all the channels offer their shows on their website (or even on your cable box, depending on provider). It's no additional cost. Several channels offer this same service.
    -Netflix - most shows go on Netflix now, it seems. And it's only $8 a month. Sure, you have to wait a bit, but that's just how it works.
    You're going to give me all the money to pay for that?! You are so sweet. I love you----oh wait.

    I have the worst Comcast where you have to set the cable box to switch channels and if the guide doesn't load for the day by 7am (and many times it won't) Shit out of luck getting it to change channels. And now networks got to break in and tell me someone farted in the snow... ugh

    And as I stated the "most shows" argument doesn't work when it's not the show I'm watching ;) And yes while cable plays episodes often twice, networks still don't and then we're back to the crappy network sites that don't really work (if they even put up a whole episode of American Idol and they don't) and so on.

    Heck, if fans can upload the full 45 minutes of Craig Ferguson's show on YouTube, CBS could do it there too and make up for the idiots breaking in and telling me it's raining (as if I can't tell by looking out the window)

    Was there really a reason to interrupt Ellen's Halloween episode and tell me there is a hurricane in New York? We are in Michigan, NBC! YouTube only had some official clips, Pirate Bay had the whole thing. Guess what I did?

  10. #85
    Ultimate Mod! Plawsky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the goddamn batman View Post
    hey, Plawsky, I appreciate you bothering to answer, but I'm probably not going to actually reply to any of your points. just fair warning.

    if you want to keep parroting the "it's illegal" line and "well I don't steal such and such" that's cool, but there isn't a less interesting conversation for me to have.
    I'm pretty busy these next few days, and I could have an interesting conversation about why piracy wins out, but I don't care to keep getting told that the illegal thing is illegal and you don't steal.
    That's fine; I don't expect you to respond to everything. Though, I'd say that my posts are a lot more than simply saying "it's illegal," at least as much as yours are more than "I pirate because I want to." If there's another conversation you're trying to have, I'm not sure what it is. All I'm really seeing are justifications for piracy, and I'm showing why each "justification" has a legal alternative. If there's more to it than that, let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by PretenderNX01 View Post
    You're going to give me all the money to pay for that?! You are so sweet. I love you----oh wait.
    I know that not everyone can afford all or any of these options. Hell, if I wasn't splitting the costs with roommates, I couldn't either. But there's a lot of stuff I'd like to have that I can't afford; I just have to accept that I can't afford it so I don't get to have it. Since we're on a comic forum, I'll mention that I would love to read all the Batman books. But my budget is already taken up by several other titles, so I wait and buy the trades or hunt through dollar bins or buy them cheap online. I realize that sounds preachy, but I assure you that's not my intention. My point is just that if price is a concern, there are always cheaper avenues that don't involve stealing. And if that's still more than you're willing to pay, you could just not indulge.

    Watching these TV shows and movies is not a right that you have as an American.
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  11. #86
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    well, first of all, I'm not justifying it. I don't have to justify anything to anyone. I'm discussing the whys of piracy. that's what I'm interested in. not all of the reasons I stated are even my reasons, just potential reasons.

    I torrent two shows, as I do not own a television, and thus, do not have cable or a DVR.
    I could pay for the episode weekly, but I'd rather spend that money on the DVD when it comes out and have paid for a permanent copy with bonus material. that's why I do it. it's there and it's easy, leaving me to purchase my prefered option later.
    that's not a justification, it's an explanation, for the sake of discussion.

    I've downloads music countless times because it was faster and easier than digging out that old CD and importing it.

  12. #87
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Addams View Post
    Honestly i don't think that people really give a damn about that. Is there anyone here who has felt guilty because he just has downloaded something illegally ? Or even thought "oh man, i just did something illegal !!"
    Most criminals don't see what they did as wrong, whatever the crime. If they did, they wouldn't do it. That doesn't make it less wrong. It just makes them deluded. I'm just saying.

  13. #88
    BANNED Phil Clark's Avatar
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    And see... just as I thought (and no, I haven't read the last 4-5 pages of this thread). This has seemingly quickly devolved into a debate about legalities and peoples rights to download. Didn't anyone learn anything from the guy who was prosecuted earlier this year?

    Keep it up and you will all eventually get caught and possibly fined or imprisoned. It is possible, however unlikely you consider it to be, that it will happen to you. Particularly if you keep defending the practice in a public forum.

  14. #89
    Observer Vibranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Clark View Post
    And see... just as I thought (and no, I haven't read the last 4-5 pages of this thread). This has seemingly quickly devolved into a debate about legalities and peoples rights to download. Didn't anyone learn anything from the guy who was prosecuted earlier this year? Keep it up and you will all eventually get caught and possibly fined or imprisoned. It is possible, however unlikely you consider it to be, that it will happen to you. Particularly if you keep defending the practice in a public forum.
    apparently not, because it's the "well it won't happen to me" mentality

    news flash, with some new legislation ISPs are going to be turning info over to local and state authorities if there is suspicion of illegal downloading
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    the reality of the situation is they aren't going to imprison 8,720,000 people for downloading movies. the prison system in America alone is overcrowded and underfunded. fines is a much better use of time, and resources.

    they will go after the uploaders, not the downloaders.

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