Final Crisis

[DrSimonHurt]

Yeah, Darkseid and Orion fought to a standstill(ignore Countdown). Darkseid burned the heavens and fell back in time.

Orion tried to come to earth to warn them about his plan, but future Darkseid killed him with a radion bullet, fired through the mobius chair.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Yeah, Darkseid and Orion fought to a standstill(ignore Countdown). Darkseid burned the heavens and fell back in time.

Orion tried to come to earth to warn them about his plan, but future Darkseid killed him with a radion bullet, fired through the mobius chair.

I pretty much enjoy how even the "experts" get confused by that part (I admit I'd have a blast if I turned out to be wrong here).

The part where I get cross eyed, is believing he was trying to shoot Orion in FC #7. I'm not denying it, but I'm not convinced. Knowing that the bullet woul end up being reused to kill him, shooting Orion is basically destroying all his work and himself, what's the gain? He has the means and the opportunity, but no motive to kill Orion. But then, he did have the mean, the opportunity and the motive to shoot at Superman, who was right in front of him, antagonizing him at the very moment. It would make more sense the whole murder being an accident produced by the mobius chair.

[carabas]

The part where I get cross eyed, is believing he was trying to shoot Orion in FC #7. I'm not denying it, but I'm not convinced. Knowing that the bullet woul end up being reused to kill him, shooting Orion is basically destroying all his work and himself, what's the gain?

It's a suicide.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

It's a suicide.

Ok, here's my reconstruction. Maybe you or someone can diagnose how I went wrong (or didn't):
*Superman faces Darkseid, the villain has the upper hand with the armies of Libra. He basically exists in the collective minds of everyone who has submitted.
*For some reason, he decides it's the right moment to shoot Orion. Even though he's not a threat at the moment, he hast to kill him to prevent the prophesy from becoming true.
*He shoots at Orion, shooting at Superman's head. Maybe he was trying to kill two birds with one stone??
*I speculate that Darkseid knew that Batman would use that bullet to poison him, but he didn't expect the Flashes to attract the Back Racer to him, so it really wasn't suicide.
*The temporal anomalies in page 14 were caused by the tunnel between two universes collapsing (as Supergirl mentions), not by Darkseid (as I believed at some point).

[Heroid]

In answer to the OP's question -- no one should have to read Countdown.

[T Hedge Coke]

Ok, here's my reconstruction. Maybe you or someone can diagnose how I went wrong (or didn't):
*Superman faces Darkseid, the villain has the upper hand with the armies of Libra. He basically exists in the collective minds of everyone who has submitted.
*For some reason, he decides it's the right moment to shoot Orion. Even though he's not a threat at the moment, he hast to kill him to prevent the prophesy from becoming true.

Not so much for some reason as he has to do it before he dies and he knows he's dying, and before the world dies with him, and he knows he's got the universe sinking in its deathbed.

*He shoots at Orion, shooting at Superman's head. Maybe he was trying to kill two birds with one stone??

He's not shooting at Superman, but past him. He's using his throne there, which is another form of Metron's Mobius Chair, to aim back through time, at Orion. The Mobius Chair is the New God idea-given-form scope, it's the ultimate looking tool, and while Metron may use it as a microscope or telescope, Darkseid uses it as a gun scope.

*I speculate that Darkseid knew that Batman would use that bullet to poison him, but he didn't expect the Flashes to attract the Back Racer to him, so it really wasn't suicide.

No evidence I can see that Darkseid was expecting Batman to have the bullet, but he knew Batman was coming, yes. This Darkseid is the Darkseid of the further future fallen back, as well, though, so he knows how this plays in its basics, which were both prophecy and history at once. Just as Orion falls an infinite number of times in "final battle" as Darkseid calls it with quotes and all, Darkseid's fall is always happened and has always happened.

*The temporal anomalies in page 14 were caused by the tunnel between two universes collapsing (as Supergirl mentions), not by Darkseid (as I believed at some point).

It's explicit in FC that Darkseid's fall is causing the corruption and anomolies, both the major shifts and discontinuities and minor things like why someone appears slightly different in a flashback than they do in the comic being flashed back to, or why "comic book time" exists rather than a smooth version relative to our own. The tunnel is established to rescue everyone from reality breaking down, just as the fridge storage.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

Not so much for some reason as he has to do it before he dies and he knows he's dying, and before the world dies with him, and he knows he's got the universe sinking in its deathbed.

He's not shooting at Superman, but past him. He's using his throne there, which is another form of Metron's Mobius Chair, to aim back through time, at Orion. The Mobius Chair is the New God idea-given-form scope, it's the ultimate looking tool, and while Metron may use it as a microscope or telescope, Darkseid uses it as a gun scope.

Fair enough. That justifies the moment, but if his death is his motivation, it stops making sense, he can avoid the very death he's trying to prevent by not shooting at Orion.

Not to mention that, since the bullet came from the future, it means that the events of FC were lived twice, one in which Orion lived until Darkseid shoot an another in which he dies tanks to the time travelling bullet. This means that the first time there was probably a Darkseid-Orion confrontation which lead the villain to shoot to the past. During the second Orion starts death, this means that Darkseid only has to remember to shoot him at some point. After seeing that shooting him is a bad idea (the bullet ends up poisoning him), it's really weird that he did.

No evidence I can see that Darkseid was expecting Batman to have the bullet, but he knew Batman was coming, yes. This Darkseid is the Darkseid of the further future fallen back, as well, though, so he knows how this plays in its basics, which were both prophecy and history at once. Just as Orion falls an infinite number of times in "final battle" as Darkseid calls it with quotes and all, Darkseid's fall is always happened and has always happened.

You're talking about the point in which Batman shoots Darkseid. Yeah, he didn't knew at the moment. I meant after that. Which should have made him careful about sending that bullet to the past.

I agree that given the time travel dynamics of the FC bullet, both Darkseid and Orion might have ie in a number of different ways.

It's explicit in FC that Darkseid's fall is causing the corruption and anomolies, both the major shifts and discontinuities and minor things like why someone appears slightly different in a flashback than they do in the comic being flashed back to, or why "comic book time" exists rather than a smooth version relative to our own. The tunnel is established to rescue everyone from reality breaking down, just as the fridge storage.

Not those annomalies of page 14, it says it right there. Also, the "fall" is his death before he reincarnates, not the one after.

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

I knew Grodd in Resist reminded me of something kinda cool

[direction9]

Fair enough. That justifies the moment, but if his death is his motivation, it stops making sense, he can avoid the very death he's trying to prevent by not shooting at Orion.

Not to mention that, since the bullet came from the future, it means that the events of FC were lived twice, one in which Orion lived until Darkseid shoot an another in which he dies tanks to the time travelling bullet. This means that the first time there was probably a Darkseid-Orion confrontation which lead the villain to shoot to the past. During the second Orion starts death, this means that Darkseid only has to remember to shoot him at some point. After seeing that shooting him is a bad idea (the bullet ends up poisoning him), it's really weird that he did.



You're talking about the point in which Batman shoots Darkseid. Yeah, he didn't knew at the moment. I meant after that. Which should have made him careful about sending that bullet to the past.

I agree that given the time travel dynamics of the FC bullet, both Darkseid and Orion might have ie in a number of different ways.



Not those annomalies of page 14, it says it right there. Also, the "fall" is his death before he reincarnates, not the one after.

can you just not

[Rafa-Rivas-2099]

excuse me?

[Robotman4]

I loved Morrison's take on the New Gods but the only, i won't say complaint because it really wasn't a big deal, was Metron's huge involvement in the fight against Darkseid. Metron has always been an observer. Letting the pieces fall where they may. He's never been an active participant in the war. In fact he mentions that he is something entirely different than the New Gods.

I have to correct myself here. Rereading Mister Miracle I had completely forgot that it was Metron who guided Scott and motivated him to escape Apokolips. He kept appearing to Scott as a phantom and instructing him to disobey Grany. So Metron did interject and played a bigger role than just observer in the war with Darkseid. So Morrison's version of Metron is pretty on par with Kirby. Metron will act if the circumstances are dire enough.

[Batman9]

Final Crisis > Rock of Ages

[Weapon_X]

It's explicit in FC that Darkseid's fall is causing the corruption and anomolies, both the major shifts and discontinuities and minor things like why someone appears slightly different in a flashback than they do in the comic being flashed back to, or why "comic book time" exists rather than a smooth version relative to our own. The tunnel is established to rescue everyone from reality breaking down, just as the fridge storage.

I don't know if this has been discussed already or answered somewhere else. Does anyone know what Darkseid's connection to space/time is, that when he dies he affects the multiverse this way? I'm trying to follow the logic presented. If his death (or fall) causes corruption and anomalies in the Multiverse and space/time, then wouldn't the death of other New Gods have the same effect. Is Darkseid a "different" type of New God? I haven't read much of the Kirby Fourth World stuff, so I don't know if he was established as being a "special" New God. I would think that his counterpart, Highfather, would have a similar effect if he died then. Would Highfather's death cause anomalies in the Multiverse as well?

[Desaad]

I don't know if this has been discussed already or answered somewhere else. Does anyone know what Darkseid's connection to space/time is, that when he dies he affects the multiverse this way? I'm trying to follow the logic presented. If his death (or fall) causes corruption and anomalies in the Multiverse and space/time, then wouldn't the death of other New Gods have the same effect. Is Darkseid a "different" type of New God? I haven't read much of the Kirby Fourth World stuff, so I don't know if he was established as being a "special" New God. I would think that his counterpart, Highfather, would have a similar effect if he died then. Would Highfather's death cause anomalies in the Multiverse as well?

Well Darkseid is uncharacteristically powerful, but not 'special' really.

The whole idea was that the New Gods exist in higher, brighter, noumenal dimensions. They have more...energy...to them, I suppose is one way of putting it. More weight. So they don't enter the physical multiverse - the 52 universes - as we know it directly, they enter via proxies.

The example I always use piggy backs off Plato's Allegory of the Cave; the New Gods themselves are objects, True Objects. They speak in words that don't just mean things but ARE things. They exist somewhere 'up there', and we never see them. The whole multiverse that is the DCU is the cave wall; two dimensional, pock marked, but pregnant with story and possibility and history. The New Gods don't enter the cave wall, but their shadows can be projected upon it, also in two dimensions, can interact with the surface of it in that way.

What we've seen, up to Final Crisis, have been these 'shadows' of the New Gods. They can change shape, definition, and contrast depending on the strength of the light source or the angle of it's position, but they are all shadows still.

When the New Gods died - when the rest of the New Gods died - they all died in this higher world. Their death had an effect, but it wasn't immediate and it wasn't catastrophic, because it happened "up there". Orion's death meant the very concept of modern warfare - especially noble warfare - had died. And so the superheroes saw their resolve, and their skill, fade.

But Darkseid, wounded but not dead, wasn't content with his kingdom of bones behind the stars. He wanted more. And so he dared to enter the physical multiverse in full glory (albeit weakened). Not just cast a shadow onto it, but ENTER it.

But to enter it, he had to create a rip in space time. A black hole big enough to swallow everything, everywhere, in all the multiverses. The end of everything, just so he could conquer one last time.

That is why the multivese was dying, rotting away. Not because Darkseid died, but because he REFUSED to die.

[Weapon_X]

Well Darkseid is uncharacteristically powerful, but not 'special' really.

The whole idea was that the New Gods exist in higher, brighter, noumenal dimensions. They have more...energy...to them, I suppose is one way of putting it. More weight. So they don't enter the physical multiverse - the 52 universes - as we know it directly, they enter via proxies.

The example I always use piggy backs off Plato's Allegory of the Cave; the New Gods themselves are objects, True Objects. They speak in words that don't just mean things but ARE things. They exist somewhere 'up there', and we never see them. The whole multiverse that is the DCU is the cave wall; two dimensional, pock marked, but pregnant with story and possibility and history. The New Gods don't enter the cave wall, but their shadows can be projected upon it, also in two dimensions, can interact with the surface of it in that way.

What we've seen, up to Final Crisis, have been these 'shadows' of the New Gods. They can change shape, definition, and contrast depending on the strength of the light source or the angle of it's position, but they are all shadows still.

When the New Gods died - when the rest of the New Gods died - they all died in this higher world. Their death had an effect, but it wasn't immediate and it wasn't catastrophic, because it happened "up there". Orion's death meant the very concept of modern warfare - especially noble warfare - had died. And so the superheroes saw their resolve, and their skill, fade.

But Darkseid, wounded but not dead, wasn't content with his kingdom of bones behind the stars. He wanted more. And so he dared to enter the physical multiverse in full glory (albeit weakened). Not just cast a shadow onto it, but ENTER it.

But to enter it, he had to create a rip in space time. A black hole big enough to swallow everything, everywhere, in all the multiverses. The end of everything, just so he could conquer one last time.

That is why the multivese was dying, rotting away. Not because Darkseid died, but because he REFUSED to die.

Thanks for that explanation. That was a pretty profound interpretation of what happened. Fascinating too, because I never looked at it that way. I'm curious. Is this based on Kirby's material, Morrison interviews, or just your own take? Regardless, it's a very interesting theory.

Now here's another question. How would you reconcile Plato's Allegory of the Cave with Morrison's allegory of story and reality he does in Superman Beyond 1 & 2?