Mary Jane and Superior Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man #700 Spoilers)

[Sighphi]

Okay, does the story in this comic have anything to do with Michelangelo's Pieta sculpture?
Attachment 106672

If Super Girls is dying in this issue im guessing the cover is showing that...... super girl is dying this issue.

Does the story in this issue have anything to do with World War II propaganda posters?
Attachment 106673

You seriously see no connection between Cobra of Gi JOE in using propaganda like Nazi's in WWII?

Does this story have anything to do with Soviet propaganda posters?
Attachment 106674

Again.... something to do with villains you see no connection to something else seen as bad?
Really?

These are three I found in less than 5 minutes. There's tons more out there, yet you act like this is a brand new phenomenon started by the evil Superior Spider-Man comic.

I am not acting like it's a brand new phenomenon i am ASKING what is the point of the homages because homages, outside of variant covers done specifically to sell and nothing more, in a comic cover are trying to convey something that is happening in the story.

Perhaps its best if you wait and see if the homage has deeper meaning or is just an homage. Again its not as if all homage covers in comics have reflected what occurs within.

So Octopus going for MJ already and seeing this happening again on the cover of SSM 2 to you doesnt represent anything at all?
You think that Marvel just said, " Hey! How about we have a cover of Doctor Spider kissing MJ for NO REASON AT ALL on issue 2?"

[Jarocho]

Seeing as multiple people replied, I'll just add this to address you all.

One said above that it's best not to accuse the "hero" of the title of it before it's out. I laugh at that for obvious reasons firstly, and then secondly, no one here as far as I've seen has accused Otto of anything outside of the very clear thoughts of sex.

And if it was to end up being the case, yes, it would certainly be rape. That's all I've seen maintained throughout this topic, and it's been a fair response to what we've been shown.

No one is saying it will happen, only that sex was alluded to. I don't see how those stating the obvious makes them the bad guy here is all I'm saying.

Also I must add that Mary Jan was an underused character for the last 30 or so issues. We discovered that MJ still had feelings for Peter but he was too busy to notice. There was little tension or momentum to this storyline, it was just in the background, to be used later.

Now it is later and the situation extra icky because this is we have waited a year and a half for story development and this is it. A potentially controversial storyline that fails the Bechdel test even if it doesn't delve into outright rape.

[LorrieK]

Actually, I'd bet they were smart enough to anticipate some people going off on the rape tangent, but realized it would be a fairly small portion of the audience, and one that likely would not effect overall sales.

So only observant people would pick up on it? I kid... mostly.

If they want to do a story where someone is raped in a Spider-Man comic, I'm not saying they shouldn't. It would have to be done very carefully (much better than has been done in the past), and even if it was written perfectly a lot of people would think it was inappropriate. But even a poorly done story about rape is much, much better than creating a situation where a character is sexual violated and the writer is seemingly oblivious to that fact (a Ms. Marvel situation). Which is why I happily accepted the retcon/lie that Peter's roommate and Chameleon only made out because it meant Marvel was aware that a mistake had been made.

I considered Slott's previous writing (She-Hulk) as evidence he is someone who was aware of the unfortunate consequences that could arise in a universe where things like mind control, pheromone powers, shape shifting, and mind/body switches are fairly common. It's entirely fair to conclude from what actually happened on the page that Ock was planning on having sex with M.J. I don't buy for a second Slott wouldn't have known that readers would (or should) perceive that Ock-Peter was a threat to M.J., or that the SSM #2 cover wouldn't suddenly seem much more sinister after the events of ASM #700, so any protestations seem disingenuous. Also, it's bogus to claim that because this exact situation couldn't happen in real life that it's somehow wrong to invoke such as strong word as rape, because Slott himself previously wrote a story about a Marvel character who was accused of sexually assaulting women by using his love powers to make them want to have sex with him, which also couldn't happen in real life as far as I'm aware.

I just assumed that no sex between Ock-Peter and M.J. occurred in ASM because Slott knew very well that it would have been rape and wasn't going to go there then or in the SSM book. I still believe that, although my faith has been shaken a bit the last few days. Until then, I was just annoyed by the people who didn't think Ock would be doing anything wrong if he had sex with M.J. while pretending to be Peter (because she would have "wanted it" after all), or the people who were like, "Poor Peter, another villain is going to have sex with one of his girlfriends." As if Peter would be the victim.

[Xenon]

I definitely think the cover is meant to suggest SSM is more aggressive on every front.

It says that Ock wants to be superior in every way, including his personal life.

That said, I think Ock's relationship with MJ is going to get complicated fast, as Peter's conscience gets the better of him.

I think the cover is meant to cause exactly the sort of thinking we have in this topic, albeit not to this degree.

Slott has been very open with the fact that Mary Jane and Spider-Man were getting together, and that it wasn't Peter Parker. Then that cover comes out. It's pretty clear to me that the whole point is to get people riled up, that they believe that anger is just as effective an inducement to readers as excitement.

Being a trekkie, I just can't around how odd it sounds to place 'Spock' in such morally compromising positions.

We don't have to worry about him hitting on MJ for another seven years!

I was using Spock until 700, now I don't want to associate the real Spock with this thing. And I'm not even a big Star Trek fan.

Rape is a sensitive subject, which is why it's a good idea not to accuse the hero of the title of being a rapist before his story's even out!

Now if you want to call him a meglomaniacal body-swapping bastard, I'm way cool with that...

That's all well and good, but that's not really been the focus of the conversation. I mean, I've been following this topic for DAYS now, and it's all been very hypothetical except when the people who are upset at the hypothetical conversation jump in.

It's very clear that Slott played with the villainy of Ock's intentions in ASM 700.

It remains to be seen how he'll deal with Ock's feelings toward MJ now that he's had a personality transfusion.

Or if he's still Peter. We could see a Firestorm style twist coming, as Slott says a lot of people swearing off the book will return after hearing about SSM 1. That implies Peter Parker will return in some capacity.

It's the only thing that would make me consider it. But even then I doubt it. The book seems to be pretty clearly focused on Doc Ock as Spider-Man, and that' just a boring concept to me. like, yeah, I'm mad that Peter Parker "died", but even if he had gone to happy magic land on a vacation with Mary Jane and the Sweedish Bikini team, Doc Ock pretending to be Spider-Man just sounds like "THE SPIDER" only with more Pontificating.

[Xenon]

So only observant people would pick up on it? I kid... mostly.

If they want to do a story where someone is raped in a Spider-Man comic, I'm not saying they shouldn't. It would have to be done very carefully (much better than has been done in the past), and even if it was written perfectly a lot of people would think it was inappropriate. But even a poorly done story about rape is much, much better than creating a situation where a character is sexual violated and the writer is seemingly oblivious to that fact (a Ms. Marvel situation). Which is why I happily accepted the retcon/lie that Peter's roommate and Chameleon only made out because it meant Marvel was aware that a mistake had been made.

I considered Slott's previous writing (She-Hulk) as evidence he is someone who was aware of the unfortunate consequences that could arise in a universe where things like mind control, pheromone powers, shape shifting, and mind/body switches are fairly common. It's entirely fair to conclude from what actually happened on the page that Ock was planning on having sex with M.J. I don't buy for a second Slott wouldn't have known that readers would (or should) perceive that Ock-Peter was a threat to M.J., or that the SSM #2 cover wouldn't suddenly seem much more sinister after the events of ASM #700, so any protestations seem disingenuous. Also, it's bogus to claim that because this exact situation couldn't happen in real life that it's somehow wrong to invoke such as strong word as rape, because Slott himself previously wrote a story about a Marvel character who was accused of sexually assaulting women by using his love powers to make them want to have sex with him, which also couldn't happen in real life as far as I'm aware.

I just assumed that no sex between Ock-Peter and M.J. occurred in ASM because Slott knew very well that it would have been rape and wasn't going to go there then or in the SSM book. I still believe that, although my faith has been shaken a bit the last few days. Until then, I was just annoyed by the people who didn't think Ock would be doing anything wrong if he had sex with M.J. while pretending to be Peter (because she would have "wanted it" after all), or the people who were like, "Poor Peter, another villain is going to have sex with one of his girlfriends." As if Peter would be the victim.

I like this post, but Peter would also be a victim. I mean, don't misunderstand, it'd be rape and a huge violation of Mary Jane and she's the biggest sufferer in all this, but still man, it hurts when another dude nails your lady, whatever the situation.

[Jim Thompson]

So only observant people would pick up on it?

Or obsessed fans, looking for anything to justify their emotions over what happened in the story and to "their" character.

[The Batman]

I like this post, but Peter would also be a victim. I mean, don't misunderstand, it'd be rape and a huge violation of Mary Jane and she's the biggest sufferer in all this, but still man, it hurts when another dude nails your lady, whatever the situation.

Pete's already a victim because Doc Ock violated his body.

[stillanerd]

So only observant people would pick up on it? I kid... mostly.

If they want to do a story where someone is raped in a Spider-Man comic, I'm not saying they shouldn't. It would have to be done very carefully (much better than has been done in the past), and even if it was written perfectly a lot of people would think it was inappropriate. But even a poorly done story about rape is much, much better than creating a situation where a character is sexual violated and the writer is seemingly oblivious to that fact (a Ms. Marvel situation). Which is why I happily accepted the retcon/lie that Peter's roommate and Chameleon only made out because it meant Marvel was aware that a mistake had been made.

I considered Slott's previous writing (She-Hulk) as evidence he is someone who was aware of the unfortunate consequences that could arise in a universe where things like mind control, pheromone powers, shape shifting, and mind/body switches are fairly common. It's entirely fair to conclude from what actually happened on the page that Ock was planning on having sex with M.J. I don't buy for a second Slott wouldn't have known that readers would (or should) perceive that Ock-Peter was a threat to M.J., or that the SSM #2 cover wouldn't suddenly seem much more sinister after the events of ASM #700, so any protestations seem disingenuous. Also, it's bogus to claim that because this exact situation couldn't happen in real life that it's somehow wrong to invoke such as strong word as rape, because Slott himself previously wrote a story about a Marvel character who was accused of sexually assaulting women by using his love powers to make them want to have sex with him, which also couldn't happen in real life as far as I'm aware.

I just assumed that no sex between Ock-Peter and M.J. occurred in ASM because Slott knew very well that it would have been rape and wasn't going to go there then or in the SSM book. I still believe that, although my faith has been shaken a bit the last few days. Until then, I was just annoyed by the people who didn't think Ock would be doing anything wrong if he had sex with M.J. while pretending to be Peter (because she would have "wanted it" after all), or the people who were like, "Poor Peter, another villain is going to have sex with one of his girlfriends." As if Peter would be the victim.

Although Peter himself is the victim too because it was his body and life Doc Ock stole, I agree with the rest of your post.

[stillanerd]

Here's a possible work around that Slott could do to address this dilemma:

As we saw in ASM #700, Doc Ock was attempting to take advantage of MJ's love and affection for Peter in order to have sex with her. But, now that he's experienced Peter's memories as if he's lived them and promised Peter to look after his loved ones, Doc Ock may now have second thoughts. So he decides to tell MJ that, because he loves her, he doesn't want to ruin their second chance together by rushing into something they could both wind up regretting. And while MJ will find this to be a sweet and romantic gesture on Peter's part, this will also be the thing which will start to make MJ suspect that there's something going on with "Peter" aside from him merely "acting strange."

[Jarocho]

I considered Slott's previous writing (She-Hulk) as evidence he is someone who was aware of the unfortunate consequences that could arise in a universe where things like mind control, pheromone powers, shape shifting, and mind/body switches are fairly common. It's entirely fair to conclude from what actually happened on the page that Ock was planning on having sex with M.J. I don't buy for a second Slott wouldn't have known that readers would (or should) perceive that Ock-Peter was a threat to M.J., or that the SSM #2 cover wouldn't suddenly seem much more sinister after the events of ASM #700, so any protestations seem disingenuous. Also, it's bogus to claim that because this exact situation couldn't happen in real life that it's somehow wrong to invoke such as strong word as rape, because Slott himself previously wrote a story about a Marvel character who was accused of sexually assaulting women by using his love powers to make them want to have sex with him, which also couldn't happen in real life as far as I'm aware.

Wow, I just remembered I dropped She-Hulk with that storyline.

Too long ago to remember my exact problem with how that was handled, but as they say, deja vu all over again.

[Zagreus]

This is a pretty clear failure to understand the argument. And you're not the only one, but just what I hope will be the last one. If Mary Jane were to have sexual relations with Doc Ock in Peter Parker's body, she would do so because she believes that the man she's having relations with is the man she fell in love with years ago. He is not. He is Otto Octavius, a Supervillain. He is wearing Peter Parker's skin. But he is not him. It's no different than the time the Chameleon tried to do the exact same thing. He ALSO looked exactly like Peter Parker. But he was NOT Peter Parker, and that's the important fact to Mary Jane. For a more realistic situation, if your identical twin slept with your wife without telling her he was not you, then he would have raped her.

Catwoman had sex with Batman because he was Batman. Her decision to have sexual relations with him had nothing to do with who was under the mask. She didn't care. Similarly, Lois was pursuing Superman because he was Superman. Any decision she made regarding intimacy would be based on the knowledge that he is Superman, and he hides his real name (she'd also have to be pretty stinking brain dead to do the deed and not figure it out, but I digress). the fact that he doesn't tell her everything about his life is irrelevant. Everyone has secrets. But there's a pretty significant difference between being Jim and being Joe, and Joe secretly having a rock band that he doesn't tell anyone about.

If you can't see the difference between having a secret and NOT BEING WHO THEY THINK YOU ARE, then we've just got a serious problem.

This, exactly. If Spidey-Ock has sex with MJ it's rape. (Unless he tells her he's Octavius in Peter's body and she consents, and in what world does that happen?) I'm curious if Slott and Wacker were going to tell this story and are now upset because now they obviously can't (because everyone will and SHOULD cry rape) or if this was never going to happen...

Because some of the comments I've seen lead me to believe that this indeed was the story... that Spidey-Ock was going to try to be the better man, in EVERY sense, including trying to be the better boyfriend to MJ. That really can't happen without Spidey-Ock repeatingly raping her, imo. But, who knows, just idle speculation on my part. In any case, I'm curious enough to find out what happens.

[One More Day]

So is Otto gonna nail MJ

[Zagreus]

Here's a possible work around that Slott could do to address this dilemma:

As we saw in ASM #700, Doc Ock was attempting to take advantage of MJ's love and affection for Peter in order to have sex with her. But, now that he's experienced Peter's memories as if he's lived them and promised Peter to look after his loved ones, Doc Ock may now have second thoughts. So he decides to tell MJ that, because he loves her, he doesn't want to ruin their second chance together by rushing into something they could both wind up regretting. And while MJ will find this to be a sweet and romantic gesture on Peter's part, this will also be the thing which will start to make MJ suspect that there's something going on with "Peter" aside from him merely "acting strange."

Yeah, that's a possible out.

[LorrieK]

I like this post, but Peter would also be a victim. I mean, don't misunderstand, it'd be rape and a huge violation of Mary Jane and she's the biggest sufferer in all this, but still man, it hurts when another dude nails your lady, whatever the situation.

Actually, right after I posted last I reconsidered about Peter being a victim. The simple fact that Ock is using Peter's body is a huge violation in and of itself. The situation is beyond creepy. But technically M.J. and Peter weren't even together before the mind switch so he should certainly be angry on M.J.'s behalf if anything bad would happen, but it's not like he had some claim on her.

[SplinteringHeart]

I like LorrieK's post (1248)....

You're right about the buttons being pushed with the words and pictures in 700 by a leery Spock, and the kiss cover.....

I know what you mean about the emphasis not being lost on the sex issue that this affects MJ most of all, but agree with others' comments that Peter would still be a (secondary) victim in this scenario....


Yet another good post (1249) by Xenon. You are doing a fantastic job on this thread, keeping it going with your tenacity and intelligence, and maintaining constancy at hitting the right points!


On the Ock as Spidey scenario, it seems to me that the concept of Superior comes down to this:

Do I want to read about Doc Ock as Peter/Spidey? Do I want to read a possible redemption story about and for the benefit of Doc Ock? Am I such a fan of Doc Ock that I want him to have this chance at Peter/Spidey's life even if it's just for a while? Did I want Peter parker to be killed off by an evil villain arch enemy who takes his place in the acceptance that this is a "progressive, interesting" and "cool" concept that can only generate good stories?


I don't think so!


I am a fan of Peter Parker, as Spider-Man...



There was a post on another thread which said that actually Superior is going to be about Peter Parker, in the way that all around him react and interact with Spock...interesting point...but that is too clever a concept to accept given what has been put in front of us so far, and given that Dan is hardly showing the subtlety that would help/make us accept this, instead of the face value prospect that Ock has taken over.


Regards

Jon