Mary Jane and Superior Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man #700 Spoilers)

[stephen wacker]

Yea remember kids it's only rape if the person doing the raping considers it rape. After all we wouldn't want our writers to have to abandon all the very rich story lines that tricking people into having sex with you can provide. That said a stolen kiss isn't rape so I got no problem with this yet. But then I would bet if comics had more of a female following you wouldn't touch this plot with a ten foot pole.

Honestly Steve I love how you guys do stuff like this to tick fans off then come on here and act all inocent when you get the exact reaction you were looking for. We all know for a fact that if Peter was still in his own head you would avoid a Spiderman and MJ romantic story line like the plague. But since its Ock in there you love it because its a "new take" on the relationship. Though I doubt much of anything will be that different other than psst it's really Doc Ock. Man MJ would be pissed if she knew.

This is of course nonsense consider I acknowledged these aspects of the story in the first couple of tweets that Rich posted.

But you're ignorning that...

So the next time you're complaining about the over-heated, nonsensical rage of some comic fans, remember you're the kind of person you're talking about.

SW

[stephen wacker]

I thought it was just a website or two having some fun and wanting some hits that made a big deal about that. Besides, May was a grown woman. If she wanted to have sex with Doc Ock before the wedding, more power to her. What I thought was ridiculous was Slott trying to claim it wasn't sex (and how dare we leap to that conclusion?), because why kill your own joke that way? It's only really funny if it was sex.

But the concern about M.J. was genuine, as the the fear that a mind-swap story could, if taken to the logical if horrible conclusion, result in a situation that would be difficult to rectify. After all, Marvel will never live down the rape of Ms. Marvel (nor should it; that degree of stupid should not be forgiven). Quite a few of the reviews of ASM #700 I've read have expressed some measure of concern about the M.J./Octo-Peter situation, even if the review was positive. These concerns were not just coming from people unhappy with the story as a whole.

You should be concerned. Our job is to get you "concerned" every issue.

And, no, the topic of May and Pete was treated as "real" by the exact same trolls who started this who shebang.

SW

[Kevin Nichols]

Has he really? I mean, I know there's that one time he beat him when he had the flu, but he's lost pretty much most of his other significant battles against... well... pretty much everyone, yeah? I mean, I could be wrong. I'm not as savvy as some. :)

He thrashed Pete soundly during their first fight.

He defeated and unmasked Pete in his second appearance.

He convinced Spidey (who had amnesia) that he was actually a villain and the two partnered up.

While wooing Aunt May, he kept Spidey off by using May as a hostage.

He actually trashed the Hulk during the Revenge of the Sinister Six story.

These are just off the top of my head, but they are all `transitory wins`. The good guys eventually came back to win, but Doc Ock won those outright. Kind of like what may or may not be happening now. Doc Ock seems to have won, but the story isn`t over yet.

[Xenon]

I think it just would've been better if Slott hadn't gone in such a direction with Mary Jane and Doc Ock in Peter's body to begin with. He didn't have to even imply the issue by having Doc Ock even try to get back together with Mary Jane.

What was the point of it unless Slott intended us to believe that rape via deception was going to eventually happen in the story?

To rile you up.

To be fair. If you're going to do a story where a bad guy like Otto Octavius takes over the body of Peter Parker, yeah, I think you have to address that situation, at least from Ock's end. That's one big low hanging fruit, and there's no way a man who creates that situation wouldn't pursue it.

I find the situation frustrating because Mary Jane is reacting appropriately to the idea of getting back together with Peter Parker, only its not Peter Parker. I realize that this is Mr. Slott trying to be ironic, but with the political history of the Peter/Mary Jane relationship, it just doesn't work as intended. Instead of being ironic it comes off as pouring salt in the wound, instead of feeling sorry for Peter we immediately get defensive over yet another scheme by Marvel to **** over the Peter/Mary Jane relationship. Because in context, that's exactly what history tells us to expect. Contrived Characterizations to split them up and taunting and mockery about the whole issue.

I have no problem that he went there, I just wish that, even in 700, it had been dealt with differently so that concerns were headed off at the past. Instead of ripping off his shirt, having Mary Jane express doubts. I mean, the OMIT characterization was horrendous, but of all the times to abandon it, this was an inopportune time.

1. The story isn't over yet. It's a bit early to call this a Doc Ock win.

2. The fact that Otto considers this his big victory is one of the points to the story. Ock was dying and managed to defeat death and Spidey in one shot. Even he knows that this was his crowning achievement.

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'm going to have to say that THIS story is over. Dying Wish was a three part story that started in 698 and ended in 700. The match and the story is over. Now, everyone fully expects there will be another story in the future where Doc Ock loses again. But the fact that Peter will come back doesn't change the story from a win and doesn't make it not over. I mean, switch it around, the villains always come back, but does that mean Spider-Man has never won? No. He's won. There will just be another story where the supervillain comes back to try again. It's jsut that Peter is playing the role of Supervillain, this time. Kind of.

He thrashed Pete soundly during their first fight.

He defeated and unmasked Pete in his second appearance.

He convinced Spidey (who had amnesia) that he was actually a villain and the two partnered up.

While wooing Aunt May, he kept Spidey off by using May as a hostage.

He actually trashed the Hulk during the Revenge of the Sinister Six story.

These are just off the top of my head, but they are all `transitory wins`. The good guys eventually came back to win, but Doc Ock won those outright. Kind of like what may or may not be happening now. Doc Ock seems to have won, but the story isn`t over yet.

The difference being those happened in the middle of storylines. Not at the end of one. It think that's an important difference. Doc Ock has been, for lack of a better term, a Power Rangers villain for basically his entire existence. He's dangerous and threatening, the good guys have to take him seriously, but at the same time, you know he's not really gonna do anything. You know he never stood a chance.

And like any other power rangers villain, he has to win a fight now and then to show he's dangerous. But before his scheme can be completed, the heroes rush back and defeat him.

[Raphael Edwards]

Rape wasn't implied in the story. Even sex wasn't implied in the story. Some people inferred it, but it wasn't implied.

Sex was very much implied in the story, with a guy posting just a page back a joke over a line Ock said internally alluding to just that. How can you just ignore that?

[Xenon]

Sex was very much implied in the story, with a guy posting just a page back a joke over a line Ock said internally alluding to just that. How can you just ignore that?

It wasn't implied that sex HAPPENED is I believe the point he's trying to get at. Ock was very much implying that he thought was going to.

[ShaggyB]

Ok guys, I know this is a hot topic and I think it needs a poll. Some of you are clear on your feelings on if Spock hooking up with MJ is a scenario falling under the category of rape and some of you arent. So lets put it to a vote.


Note there are two distinct questions here, so make sure to vote for both. (If you think rape is gonna happen in superior spider-man and If you think the kiss was rape or not) So multiple selection ability is on so you can pick one of each.

[spider-prime]

I don't think it's rape. She's not being forced to have sex with him, she wants to if it happens.
I've had sex with women I picked up cause I charmed myself as a doctor before. (newsflash, I ain't no docta!) I consider this the same thing.
Obviously, it will disgust her when she finds out the truth. But, because of the deception and not of rape.

[Raphael Edwards]

It wasn't implied that sex HAPPENED is I believe the point he's trying to get at. Ock was very much implying that he thought was going to.

Ah, I see. I thought he was saying that sex hadn't been implied as a possibility later.

[Xenon]

While still not a good thing to do, profession and identity are two radically different things to lie about.

[ShaggyB]

feel free to vote on it. Again top two are about superior spidey featuring rape in the future.... and the bottom are about if a kiss in asm is/should be considered rape. (both are things that have been discussed around the web)

[Kevin Nichols]

Sex was very much implied in the story, with a guy posting just a page back a joke over a line Ock said internally alluding to just that. How can you just ignore that?

That only implies Doc Ock's intentions. It doesn't imply that it's going to happen, or even that it might happen. In every single story, the villain's intentions are implied, if not directly stated. That is not an implication that his plans will work out or that he'll even get a chance to implement them.

[Kevin Nichols]

And for the record, sex is almost always implied in comics. It is never outright shown (at least in comics for all audiences), and only occassionally mentioned.

[Xenon]

feel free to vote on it. Again top two are about superior spidey featuring rape in the future.... and the bottom are about if a kiss in asm is/should be considered rape. (both are things that have been discussed around the web)

If I may suggest, I think the poll is a bit...oddly worded.

The primary controversy's I see are 1) whether or not Ock and Mary Jane will have sex and 2) Whether such sexual relations are a rape if Mary Jane is unaware of the actual identity of her sexual partner.

The kissing thing I think is pretty fringe. Having the third poll option up there makes sense, but the fourth one I think could be changed really to ask whether people think that the sex wouldn't be rape, as the other poster in this topic has already suggested. I just don't think there's any significant contingent arguing that kissing her is a rape.

Also, given how many 700 topics there are already, it might be better to just add this poll to the other topic. I think any conversation had in this topic would be pretty much the exact same as the conversation in the other topic, but I do so like polls.

[Raphael Edwards]

That only implies Doc Ock's intentions. It doesn't imply that it's going to happen, or even that it might happen. In every single story, the villain's intentions are implied, if not directly stated. That is not an implication that his plans will work out or that he'll even get a chance to implement them.

Yeah, look above your post on that reply. I didn't know what you meant at first. I was speaking on Otto's intentions as you said.