Mary Jane and Superior Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man #700 Spoilers)

[charlesthehammer]

People are quick to scream rape rather then read the story. And it is not a word to be tossed around lightly but I expect no less from some comic fans.

Because the thing about rape most of these people who are, quick to scream it is forgetting is that. Most of the time when rape take place it happens in a violent manner.

If we going to use real world methods in laws, for this let me play devil's advocate. There are many stories of men lying about who they are, such as being rich or being something or someone there not.

To get women to fall in love or sleep with them do any of you y'ell rape. just asking.

Yes that is rape. Remember only a rather small part of rape is violent. Violent rape is just the most visible.

Ultimately, this is fiction. Murder, rape, robbery, etc. are all "trivialized" to some degree in that they make the horrors that the victims suffer somewhat "unreal." But, that doesnt mean fiction shouldnt deal with these subjects. Everything is fair game, its all just a matter of execution.

It generally shouldn't deal with things it just can't handle. Fiction has proven time and again it just can't handle rape.

[stillanerd]

That may yet happen. I actually don't think that there is any chance Slott will write MJ and Doc Ock as sexual partners (for all of the reasons that Xenon cogently laid out). Either (i) Ock will confess to MJ and one or both will back away, (ii) Ock will decide that he can't go through with it but will not confess, (iii) MJ will realize that Ock is not Peter and will pull away, (iv) MJ will not realize that Ock is not Peter but will be getting the heebie-jeebies and will pull away, or (v) something else entirely. I think that Marvel just wants to make us squirm for a minute.

Yeah, I'm thinking that, the way this could play out, MJ beings noticing little things that seem very off about "Peter," things she initially dismissed as him being overly eager for them to get back together and/or stress from Silver Sable's death and "Doc Ock's" escape and so-forth. Things that make her concerned, but nothing she thinks is too serious. And then, depending upon how the upcoming Massacre story in Superior Spider-Man plays out, that's when MJ begins to think "Okay, something is seriously wrong here, and I have to find out what it is." And of course, she doesn't directly confront "Peter" but begins looking for help from Peter's allies like Captain America, Iron Man, and Dr. Strange without "Peter" being aware of it.

[Spider-Fly]

I read that as her kind of testing him. She feigned surprise at seeing his Spider-Man duds under his civies, so I think she already suspects that something is up.

It's possible.

Does the whole thing of Peter being Spider-Man still apply when it comes to them being a couple?

That was the reason why they broke up, right?

[Spider-Fly]

That may yet happen. I actually don't think that there is any chance Slott will write MJ and Doc Ock as sexual partners (for all of the reasons that Xenon cogently laid out). Either (i) Ock will confess to MJ and one or both will back away, (ii) Ock will decide that he can't go through with it but will not confess, (iii) MJ will realize that Ock is not Peter and will pull away, (iv) MJ will not realize that Ock is not Peter but will be getting the heebie-jeebies and will pull away, or (v) something else entirely. I think that Marvel just wants to make us squirm for a minute.

Isn't it the case that ultimately, for Superior Spider-Man to work as a concept, doesn't it have to be an arc about Doc Ock's effort to become a hero (whether he succeeds or, as I suspect, fails)? If he rapes MJ (and there is no doubt that morally it would be rape regardless of what legally happens to lying twins in Massachusetts) Ock could not become a hero. So, won't Marvel avoid going there?

You would hope so, but the fact is it is Marvel after all, and going by what they've done in the past they might not even care.

It appears that Marvel doesn't want Peter and Mary Jane to be a couple despite the fact that a lot of fans want them to be.

Can we really put it past Marvel to do something like this as a final nail in the coffin to prevent them from ever being a couple again should Peter end up returning as some people have already stated in this thread?

Heck, I find it even impossibe for Peter and Mary Jane to remain close friends if Doc Ock and her get sexually involved with each other and she later learns the truth.

[BooCoo]

Did you read 700 yet? You know, the issue where Mary Jane proclaims her undying love to Peter and rips off his clothes before they're interrupted? She seems to have made her choice already.

Oh yeah, it's pretty much what I expected. More controversy and rage keeps the discussion going. I'll only say that the final shoe has yet to drop. And supposedly Kaine has some connection to all this...future solicits point to the other.

Is it me, or do Mj and Pete look kinda...hard in the face? Weird.

[Sighphi]

People are quick to scream rape rather then read the story. And it is not a word to be tossed around lightly but I expect no less from some comic fans.

Because the thing about rape most of these people who are, quick to scream it is forgetting is that. Most of the time when rape take place it happens in a violent manner.

If we going to use real world methods in laws, for this let me play devil's advocate. There are many stories of men lying about who they are, such as being rich or being something or someone there not.

To get women to fall in love or sleep with them do any of you y'ell rape. just asking.

Pretty sure when you pose as some one else to get something you are breaking the law.

Calm down people rape has not happened in Spider-man. Until they show him sleeping with MJ, y'all may have a point.

But to scream it now when nothing of the such has happened, is jumping the gun from people who was upset with the story from the start.

As rape is a very bad thing which shouldn't be toss around by, some people on a comic forum who don't understand it.

And also if Marvel didn't see this coming, who do the Mouse fire first.

Yes it hasnt happened but Marvel sure seem to want to promote something happening.

Do we ignore this as well?

[Mark_S]

She is surprised there, but the true test is what happens in the issue. But based on past work I'm not certain she'll pull back.

[Spider-Fly]

She is surprised there, but the true test is what happens in the issue. But based on past work I'm not certain she'll pull back.

Well, if she doesn't then Marvel definitely plans on making sure that she and Peter (when/if he returns) will never be a couple or close friends ever again.

I can't see how such will be possible when she finds out the truth.

[Mark_S]

Well, if she doesn't then Marvel definitely plans on making sure that she and Peter (when/if he returns) will never be a couple or close friends ever again.

I can't see how such will be possible when she finds out the truth.

Marvel writers are very good at ignoring what they don't want to deal with.

[Xenon]

I read that as her kind of testing him. She feigned surprise at seeing his Spider-Man duds under his civies, so I think she already suspects that something is up.

I didn't think much about that at first, but I would chalk it up to she was surprised he was wearing the Spider-Man outfit after going through all the obvious trouble to attempt to get her in bed. Got all her favorite things, said they were getting back together, and then......Spider-Man outfit underneath. Especially since after the nonsense that is OMIT Spider-Man was the primary reason they broke up in the first place.

I don't think she's suspicious of anything more severe than him having some emotional troubles. Consider the scene later on when she gave him the long-winded I love you speech and then made out with him. If she was suspicious of his behavior, that would be the time to question him.

That said, it's not impossible. One theory of how things will get back to normal would be Mary Jane figuring it all out. But I don't think that's the most likely explanation given the evidence we have at the moment.

That may yet happen. I actually don't think that there is any chance Slott will write MJ and Doc Ock as sexual partners (for all of the reasons that Xenon cogently laid out). Either (i) Ock will confess to MJ and one or both will back away, (ii) Ock will decide that he can't go through with it but will not confess, (iii) MJ will realize that Ock is not Peter and will pull away, (iv) MJ will not realize that Ock is not Peter but will be getting the heebie-jeebies and will pull away, or (v) something else entirely. I think that Marvel just wants to make us squirm for a minute.

Isn't it the case that ultimately, for Superior Spider-Man to work as a concept, doesn't it have to be an arc about Doc Ock's effort to become a hero (whether he succeeds or, as I suspect, fails)? If he rapes MJ (and there is no doubt that morally it would be rape regardless of what legally happens to lying twins in Massachusetts) Ock could not become a hero. So, won't Marvel avoid going there?

What it always boils down to is trust. You're analysis of the problem isn't wrong. But we simply don't trust that Marvel feels the same way. This is the same comic book franchise that has, in the last decade, put out a sloppy character redefining story that is clearly the most out of character story ever told about that character, had its protagonist make a deal with the notDevil to erase a marriage sheerly out of personal preference, and whose master plan to keep Spider-man from getting married was to have an ordinary criminal throw a cinder block at him and succeed. Further complicating the matter is ASM 603, where we see the Chameleon dressed as Peter Parker seeming play a game of hide the sausage with Michele Gonzales only to have to hastily backpedal months later while simultaneously pretending nothing is wrong.

Adding another layer to the problem is the fact that we've been outright told that Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson will be getting back together. Thirty....Fifty years ago, that might not have had the sexual implications, but in the modern world, that's generally what it means. Of course, that could be a lie or misdirection, or it could simply be referring to the stuff we've already seen. But it's out there, regardless, making people doubt.

Simply put, yes, it would be a stupid decision. That seems to be the way things work anymore though.

Oh yeah, it's pretty much what I expected. More controversy and rage keeps the discussion going. I'll only say that the final shoe has yet to drop. And supposedly Kaine has some connection to all this...future solicits point to the other.

Is it me, or do Mj and Pete look kinda...hard in the face? Weird.

Welcome to the World of Art brought to you by Humberto Ramos. He does draw some great female anatomy, but he always gives them (and the men) chins that would make the Tick jealous.

[charlesthehammer]

There is a good chance resident Mary Sue Carlie will figure it out.

[TonyStark1012]

New plot twist: Ock remembers his burning passion for Tony Stark, so MJ gets a pass.

How dare you show that sir! That is stricken from the records!

[Spider-Fly]

Marvel writers are very good at ignoring what they don't want to deal with.

Yeah...but they end up doing stories that suck as a result of it.

[Mister Mets]

That may yet happen. I actually don't think that there is any chance Slott will write MJ and Doc Ock as sexual partners (for all of the reasons that Xenon cogently laid out). Either (i) Ock will confess to MJ and one or both will back away, (ii) Ock will decide that he can't go through with it but will not confess, (iii) MJ will realize that Ock is not Peter and will pull away, (iv) MJ will not realize that Ock is not Peter but will be getting the heebie-jeebies and will pull away, or (v) something else entirely. I think that Marvel just wants to make us squirm for a minute.

Isn't it the case that ultimately, for Superior Spider-Man to work as a concept, doesn't it have to be an arc about Doc Ock's effort to become a hero (whether he succeeds or, as I suspect, fails)? If he rapes MJ (and there is no doubt that morally it would be rape regardless of what legally happens to lying twins in Massachusetts) Ock could not become a hero. So, won't Marvel avoid going there?

It's convoluted to discuss a scene that hasn't happened yet, and may not happen, considering the other ways the story can go.

But I think one problem with this discussion is the expectation that everyone would agree that something that isn't legally classified as rape in New York state is an example of that crime, and therefore off-limits in a Spider-Man comic. It's too restrictive in this type of series when readers start suggesting that something that isn't technically illegal in the state, and that can't happen in the real world in exactly the same way is a taboo that shouldn't even be hinted at.

[charlesthehammer]

Because legality is a dumb way to decide morality. Damn near useless really. I mean racism isn't illegal, but I don't think having Peter going around calling Arabs towel heads (or insert fictional race here) is a very good idea.

Another example is pot. Its illegal in a lot of places, but I don't care if its discussed in any book.