Mary Jane and Superior Spider-Man (Amazing Spider-Man #700 Spoilers)

[timeismoney]

People are quick to scream rape rather then read the story. And it is not a word to be tossed around lightly but I expect no less from some comic fans.

Because the thing about rape most of these people who are, quick to scream it is forgetting is that. Most of the time when rape take place it happens in a violent manner.

If we going to use real world methods in laws, for this let me play devil's advocate. There are many stories of men lying about who they are, such as being rich or being something or someone there not.

To get women to fall in love or sleep with them do any of you y'ell rape. just asking.

[timeismoney]

Calm down people rape has not happened in Spider-man. Until they show him sleeping with MJ, y'all may have a point.

But to scream it now when nothing of the such has happened, is jumping the gun from people who was upset with the story from the start.

As rape is a very bad thing which shouldn't be toss around by, some people on a comic forum who don't understand it.

And also if Marvel didn't see this coming, who do the Mouse fire first.

[Spider-Fly]

Intercourse obtained by fraud or trickery is considered a first degree rape in almost every state (only second degree in a minority of states). Although we dont exactly get a lot of mind-swapping type rapes, there is a famous case of a physician who informed an especialy comely patient that she had a rare blood disorder that required an injection of a similarly rare serum. Guess how that "injection" needed to be done? Uh huh. So, the woman gave consent to the sex, then upon discovery it was a crock o'shite, complained to the local DA, who successfully prosecuted the (not so) good doctor for first degree rape. There's also a couple of identical twin rapes out there, so while rare, this sort of stuff happens. I think it would be great to have Spider-Ock do her, then have MJ as freaked out over the face of Peter Parker as she was over the black suit.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that you were never a fan of the Peter Parker and Mary Jane relationship.

[Mark_S]

Calm down people rape has not happened in Spider-man. Until they show him sleeping with MJ, y'all may have a point.

But to scream it now when nothing of the such has happened, is jumping the gun from people who was upset with the story from the start.

As rape is a very bad thing which shouldn't be toss around by, some people on a comic forum who don't understand it.

And also if Marvel didn't see this coming, who do the Mouse fire first.

Writers don't always see the fan reaction coming. Bendis has said that he didn't expect the negative reaction from Avengers Dissasembled. As I've noted they've treated forms of rape casually at marvel before, I can easily see them doing it again.

[Kevinroc]

Calm down people rape has not happened in Spider-man.

Spider-Man/Black Cat: The Evil That Men Do. (Thanks for that, Kevin Smith.)

[Spider-Fly]

Calm down people rape has not happened in Spider-man. Until they show him sleeping with MJ, y'all may have a point.

But to scream it now when nothing of the such has happened, is jumping the gun from people who was upset with the story from the start.

As rape is a very bad thing which shouldn't be toss around by, some people on a comic forum who don't understand it.

And also if Marvel didn't see this coming, who do the Mouse fire first.

It's NOT about it not happening yet it's the potential for it to happen because it's already been setup for the possibility.

Why do we have to wait for it to happen before we discuss the issue?

If we discuss the issue now then perhaps a last minute decision can be made (if such a thing as rape via deception is even coming in the story) to remove it from the story before it is sold to the public and as a result Spider-Man's character doesn't have to become even more tainted than it already is by him making that deal with Mephisto in OMD.

[BooCoo]

And the point still stands that we do not know to what degree he will take advantage, if at all.

My batting average has been glorious, thank you.

I, m glad someone realizes Mj does actually have a choice in who she sleeps with. DUH. So much typical, male oriented assumption that she, s just gonna sleep with Peter, no matter what. And so we have these endless debates about whether the ock deal is rape or not. Seriously I think some people live in a bubble.

[Spider-Fly]

Writers don't always see the fan reaction coming. Bendis has said that he didn't expect the negative reaction from Avengers Dissasembled. As I've noted they've treated forms of rape casually at marvel before, I can easily see them doing it again.

Exactly my point.

If fans don't vent how they feel about something when they see the potential of it happening despite it not happening yet then it doesn't send a message to Marvel to even bother to prevent it from happening to begin with.

If we vent our opinions on a situation before it happens then it proves that Marvel doesn't give a crap about what the fans think when they do it anyway and as a result the consequences can only be placed on Marvel as a result.

I think it's the job of us fans to let Marvel know about the things that cause our rage against them so that they have no one to blame but themselves when it happens.

[Spider-Fly]

I'm glad someone realizes Mj does actually have a choice in who she sleeps with. DUH. So much typical, male oriented assumption that she, s just gonna sleep with Peter, no matter what. And so we have these endless debates about whether the ock deal is rape or not. Seriously I think some people live in a bubble.

I never said that Mary Jane didn't have a choice, I said that if Doc Ock in Peter's body ends up deceving Mary Jane into a sexual relationship it will be rape via deception.

Rape via deception doesn't even work unless their is a choice to be made.

[Xenon]

There was also a case in Israel where a dude pretended to be Jewish (he was Arab I believe), and I am fairly sure he got convicted on rape charges. Granted the chick was crazy racist, but that don't make it right. Also I wouldn't like to see that.

Ideally comics shouldn't really deal with rape. It just never ends well.

Personally, I don't have a problem with it being in fictional stories,and that includes comics. Yes, Rape is a very bad thing, but you deal with very bad people in these stories. I know some people say you shoudl just avoid it because it trivializes the situation, but I don't buy the argument. All drama involves dealing with situations that are bad and uncomfortable. That's just the nature of drama. Even horrible things like the Holocaust or the Communist purges of Russia and China or slavery in the first century of the United States. All terrible things, all subjects of drama. It's true that when you deal with traumatic things that you may lose some of your audience because of personal issues. And that's something you should be cautious of, but it shouldn't make such subjects off-limits. With rape, especially, I think that the fear of addressing it in fiction (it's not just comics that are scared of it), actually might contribute to the reporting problem we have with rape. We know it's under-reported, and we know it's because of shame and fear generally. Others may disagree with me on this, but I think the fact that we're scared to even mention it in some places only feeds that sense of shame and fear.

Additionally, often times when rape is used, it's either mishandled or worse, just thrown in to have something terrible happen to a female character, probably in the past. It's often lazily done. But poor usage of something doesn't mean it shouldn't be done, it just means you have to do it carefully.

With all that said, if you're going to put rape in your never-ending super hero story, you have to be very careful about how you do so. The villain who does so will become irredeemable for sure, and will beginto garner statements of "just kill him already". The victim will likely have long-standing issues about it and it will always be associated with that character. Perhaps to summarize, in a medium that constantly seeks to return itself to its original status quo, this is something that cannot be undone, and as such you have to be willing to basically forever sacrifice the pieces your using.

For Spider-Man in particular, I would argue against it for a lot of reasons. For one thing, whether people like it or not, Mary Jane is the character's love interest. She's his notWife, and that's not a character you want to saddle with this forever. Additionally, thanks to the Evil that Men do, Spider-Man already has a love interest that's been raped. And while it's not a rape and should be wiped from continuity and exposed for the lie it is, you already even have a villain who's had sex with a Spdier-Man love interest. Two, actually, as besies that Abomination the Foreigner also got a piece of Felicia (but at this point, it might be easier to list who hasn't). Plus, seriously guys, this is like the dozenth guy to try to rape Mary Jane. First there was Jonathan Caesar, then the Chameleon tried this exact stunt, and hell, the kidnapper may not have touched her, but he was trying to meld minds with Peter Parker and become him, partially to possess Mary Jane.

O_O

Oh God. I just realized. ASM 700 is just a version of Mackie's last story where the kidnapper won. O_O

[Xenon]

I, m glad someone realizes Mj does actually have a choice in who she sleeps with. DUH. So much typical, male oriented assumption that she, s just gonna sleep with Peter, no matter what. And so we have these endless debates about whether the ock deal is rape or not. Seriously I think some people live in a bubble.

Did you read 700 yet? You know, the issue where Mary Jane proclaims her undying love to Peter and rips off his clothes before they're interrupted? She seems to have made her choice already.

[Spider-Fly]

I think there is something else that needs to be considered when it comes to this whole deception thing with Doc Ock in Peter's body.

The general audience for comics is children, and when you have a situation where the villian wins and takes over the hero's body and then pretends to be the hero without revealing the deception of pretending to be the hero it sends a message to kids that you can become a hero by deceiving people.

That's just not a very good message to put out there.

If Doc Ock wants to be a hero now then the right way to go about it is to confess to the deception and pay for his crime and then become the hero as a former villian.

[Kevin Nichols]

Did you read 700 yet? You know, the issue where Mary Jane proclaims her undying love to Peter and rips off his clothes before they're interrupted? She seems to have made her choice already.

I read that as her kind of testing him. She feigned surprise at seeing his Spider-Man duds under his civies, so I think she already suspects that something is up.

[Kevin Nichols]

Personally, I don't have a problem with it being in fictional stories,and that includes comics. Yes, Rape is a very bad thing, but you deal with very bad people in these stories. I know some people say you shoudl just avoid it because it trivializes the situation, but I don't buy the argument. All drama involves dealing with situations that are bad and uncomfortable. That's just the nature of drama. Even horrible things like the Holocaust or the Communist purges of Russia and China or slavery in the first century of the United States. All terrible things, all subjects of drama. It's true that when you deal with traumatic things that you may lose some of your audience because of personal issues. And that's something you should be cautious of, but it shouldn't make such subjects off-limits. With rape, especially, I think that the fear of addressing it in fiction (it's not just comics that are scared of it), actually might contribute to the reporting problem we have with rape. We know it's under-reported, and we know it's because of shame and fear generally. Others may disagree with me on this, but I think the fact that we're scared to even mention it in some places only feeds that sense of shame and fear.

I agree with this 100%. Imagine if nothing horrible was ever dealt with in fiction? Imagine no 'To Kill a Mockingbird' or 'A Clockwork Orange'? Ugh.

[Corey W]

I think there is something else that needs to be considered when it comes to this whole deception thing with Doc Ock in Peter's body.

The general audience for comics is children, and when you have a situation where the villian wins and takes over the hero's body and then pretends to be the hero without revealing the deception of pretending to be the hero it sends a message to kids that you can become a hero by deceiving people.

That's just not a very good message to put out there.

If Doc Ock wants to be a hero now then the right way to go about it is to confess to the deception and pay for his crime and then become the hero as a former villian.

That may yet happen. I actually don't think that there is any chance Slott will write MJ and Doc Ock as sexual partners (for all of the reasons that Xenon cogently laid out). Either (i) Ock will confess to MJ and one or both will back away, (ii) Ock will decide that he can't go through with it but will not confess, (iii) MJ will realize that Ock is not Peter and will pull away, (iv) MJ will not realize that Ock is not Peter but will be getting the heebie-jeebies and will pull away, or (v) something else entirely. I think that Marvel just wants to make us squirm for a minute.

Isn't it the case that ultimately, for Superior Spider-Man to work as a concept, doesn't it have to be an arc about Doc Ock's effort to become a hero (whether he succeeds or, as I suspect, fails)? If he rapes MJ (and there is no doubt that morally it would be rape regardless of what legally happens to lying twins in Massachusetts) Ock could not become a hero. So, won't Marvel avoid going there?