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  1. #616
    Elder Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    No, it makes it a victory for Doc Ock who would maintain that only he could have done it while Peter would have failed. Also saving the world that you live on is mandatory if you want to keep living. People keep saying that Peter won because there is a part of him still in Doc Ock. That's like saying the tree won because I got a splinter while cutting it down. Mr. Slot wants to play Doc Ock hero worship for a year or so ok it's his title and marvel has pretty much dragged all the heroes into the mud so I guess it was Spiderman's turn. But in my opinion it is not a Spiderman story, it's a Doc Ock story and rather than be honest that he wants to write the villain as the hero he's just pulling a bait and switch: buy Spiderman, get Doc Ock. Kinda reminds me of Teen Tony over in the Iron Man title.
    Saying that Marvel have dragged all their heroes in the mud,is not even suported by the stories itself.Because a hero is defined by their heroic actions,and marvel super heroes kept on saving people and the world as always.
    And it really looks like you are missing some things about how ASM#700 is a story about Spider-Man all right.
    It is quite clear that this story takes the focus from Peter Parker and show how strong is Spider-Man importance to others.
    Or else there would be no way that a character as arogant as Doc Ock would try to live up the values of Spider-Man.
    So Mr Slott besides making a comic book story with a splendid twist,did write a story in which the values of Spider-Man are clear even if the story have Peter Parker mind traped in Doctor Octavius.And thats one of the things that make good storytelling.
    Last edited by whiteshark; 01-08-2013 at 09:13 AM.
    Pull List:New Avengers,Thor,Superior Spider-Man,Mighty Avengers,Swamp Thing,Daredevil,Uncanny Avengers,Superior Foes of Spider-Man.

  2. #617
    Senior Member Hambone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Saying that Marvel have dragged all their heroes in the mud,is just is not even suported by the stories itself.Because a hero is defined by their heroic actions,and marvel super heroes kept on saving people and the world as always.
    Explain AvX then. The Avengers were made to look like incompetant fools and the ending didn't even justify their position in the battle. They were wrong about the Phoenix's return, make everything worse by splitting up the PF and then driving Cyclops to go "Dark Phoenix" and the resolution is to just do what the X-Men had originally planned to do in the first place? The writers didn't even bother to address the original concern that the PF was destroying everything in it's path to Earth, something it's never done before in prior stories! Terrible storytelling, and it makes there big summer movie champions look like morons. AvX definitely dragged them in the mud.

  3. #618
    Elder Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
    Explain AvX then. The Avengers were made to look like incompetant fools and the ending didn't even justify their position in the battle. They were wrong about the Phoenix's return, make everything worse by splitting up the PF and then driving Cyclops to go "Dark Phoenix" and the resolution is to just do what the X-Men had originally planned to do in the first place? The writers didn't even bother to address the original concern that the PF was destroying everything in it's path to Earth, something it's never done before in prior stories! Terrible storytelling, and it makes there big summer movie champions look like morons. AvX definitely dragged them in the mud.
    Opinions vary.
    But i fail to see how Avengers in trying to save the world from a Omega threat level as Phoenix make them wrong.
    And since they do not guess the future how could they know that the Phoenix would split up in five?
    Cyclops turning in the Dark Phoenix was actually something that was one of the directions from a storytelling prespective in the x-men stories for years now.Cyclops aproving the X-Force team or isolating the mutants in Utopia were signs of that.
    Plus Phoenix had destroyed planets before,even with Jean Grey as the host.That was part of the story in the Dark Phoenix Saga,in uncanny x-men.
    Pull List:New Avengers,Thor,Superior Spider-Man,Mighty Avengers,Swamp Thing,Daredevil,Uncanny Avengers,Superior Foes of Spider-Man.

  4. #619
    Senior Member Hambone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Opinions vary.
    But i fail to see how Avengers in trying to save the world from a Omega threat level as Phoenix make them wrong.
    And since they do not guess the future how could they know that the Phoenix would split up in five?
    Cyclops turning in the Dark Phoenix was actually something that was one of the directions from a storytelling prespective in the x-men stories for years now.Cyclops aproving the X-Force team or isolating the mutants in Utopia were signs of that.
    Plus Phoenix had destroyed planets before,even with Jean Grey as the host.That was part of the story in the Dark Phoenix Saga,in uncanny x-men.
    Yes with a host. The Phoenix in AvX was destroying planets WITHOUT a host, something that's never been addressed in prior Phoenix stories. The Avengers did have a plausible argument at that point.

    But then what happens? That plot point is dropped, and every action the Avengers take afterwards continually makes matters worse. Tony splits the Phoenix into 5. The Phoenix Five make the world into a paradise, outlawing war and feeding impovished nations, the Avengers continue to attack them, despite all the good they are doing, which drives each PF host into retaliating, with Wakanda ending up as collateral damage. Finally, they drive Scott crazy and he kills Professor X and sets the world on fire.

    Resolution to the story? The Avengers get the PF into Hope (which was the X-Men's original goal anyways) and she fixes everything and brings back the mutant race. Way to go, Avengers! You now look like a bunch of ignorant bullies! If you just stayed home and didn't interfere, things probably would've turned out just fine!

  5. #620
    Man of Marvel Raphael Edwards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hambone View Post
    Resolution to the story? The Avengers get the PF into Hope (which was the X-Men's original goal anyways) and she fixes everything and brings back the mutant race. Way to go, Avengers! You now look like a bunch of ignorant bullies! If you just stayed home and didn't interfere, things probably would've turned out just fine!

    You can't be serious here. They had no way of knowing one way or another what the Phoenix would eventually do, and either way, do you really expect one of the biggest and primary defenders of earth to just stay home and not interfere?

  6. #621
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Saying that Marvel have dragged all their heroes in the mud,is not even suported by the stories itself.Because a hero is defined by their heroic actions,and marvel super heroes kept on saving people and the world as always.
    And it really looks like you are missing some things about how ASM#700 is a story about Spider-Man all right.
    It is quite clear that this story takes the focus from Peter Parker and show how strong is Spider-Man importance to others.
    Or else there would be no way that a character as arogant as Doc Ock would try to live up the values of Spider-Man.
    So Mr Slott besides making a comic book story with a splendid twist,did write a story in which the values of Spider-Man are clear even if the story have Peter Parker mind traped in Doctor Octavius.And thats one of the things that make good storytelling.
    Peter's dead, Doc Ock is alive. I don't see death being much a victory since Doc Ock should be able to edit out the parts of his mind that contain Peter Parker. If he created the technology in the first place he should be able to modify it. The title is no longer Spiderman, it's Doc Ock masquerading as Spiderman. In every battle the one who keeps on breathing is the one who wins. Peter's bit of conscience may make Doc Ock bend down to pet a puppy as opposed to kicking it, or stop a robbery or a mugging or two, but bottom line is that Peter Parker is dead and Doc Ock is alive. He won. Spin the story as you will, there is no getting around that fact. At least until the next retcon. I just wish that marvel was honest enough to call the title "Doc Ock" instead of "Spiderman"
    Last edited by Mark_S; 01-08-2013 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #622
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael Edwards View Post
    You can't be serious here. They had no way of knowing one way or another what the Phoenix would eventually do, and either way, do you really expect one of the biggest and primary defenders of earth to just stay home and not interfere?
    I would have expected them to act with a bit more control and intelligence and follow some laws, but that's another thread on another section of the board.

  8. #623
    Man of Marvel Raphael Edwards's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I would have expected them to act with a bit more control and intelligence and follow some laws, but that's another thread on another section of the board.
    Well, technically they are the law in the instance that S.H.I.E.L.D. was behind them as well. And Cap did come to Scott with respect and control I think but Scott tried to blast him almost immediately. It was a tough situation one way or another, but faulting the Avengers solely for trying to prevent the extinction of earth isn't exactly fair.
    Last edited by Raphael Edwards; 01-08-2013 at 10:09 AM.

  9. #624
    Senior Member Hambone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael Edwards View Post
    You can't be serious here. They had no way of knowing one way or another what the Phoenix would eventually do, and either way, do you really expect one of the biggest and primary defenders of earth to just stay home and not interfere?
    If the writing had been better, the Avengers interference would have ACTUALLY been warranted. Storywise, the characters are simply buffoons who's own actions manage to transform the X-men INTO the villains by the end of the first half. The event was mismanaged and the Avengers look the worse for it. They did not look like the heroes the recent film showed them to be.

  10. #625
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    There was one point. During the time he had been scared out of he business and had spent weeks or months in an insane asylum. At one point, he expressed remose and, IIRC the arms came for him of their own will and he didn't want them, or something. In any case, he had a shot at redemption, he had a support network, people who had worked with him for a long time to get him to be a better man, a doctor he even seemed grateful toward. But in the end, when push came to shove, he chose villainy. It's just who he is.

    Just showing him Uncle Ben's support I dont' think is different enough from that story to really sell the change. Doc Ock is a bad guy. An entertaining bad guy, sure. But still nothing more than a bad guy. There's a limit to how much you can pass off on childhood disappointments.
    It wasn't just showing him Uncle Ben's support. Otto lived them in his head.

    And while not enough to change him then and there, it did set him down the 'right' path. 'Cause without those memories, Otto would have most likely remained a villain in Peter's body.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  11. #626
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    It wasn't just showing him Uncle Ben's support. Otto lived them in his head.

    And while not enough to change him then and there, it did set him down the 'right' path. 'Cause without those memories, Otto would have most likely remained a villain in Peter's body.
    Hence why Tony Stark should just beam Pete's memories into everyone's heads via satellite.
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  12. #627
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Hence why Tony Stark should just beam Pete's memories into everyone's heads via satellite.
    Unfortunately, not everyone has 4G coverage.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  13. #628
    Marked for Redemption David Walton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    Unfortunately, not everyone has 4G coverage.
    Which the 3G people would feel very guilty about.

    "I've failed you again, Uncle Ben..."
    "I came to the conclusion that the optimist thought everything good except the pessimist, and the pessimist thought everything bad, except himself." -- G.K. Chesterton

  14. #629
    The curious one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raphael Edwards View Post
    Well, technically they are the law in the instance that S.H.I.E.L.D. was behind them as well. And Cap did come to Scott with respect and control I think but Scott tried to blast him almost immediately. It was a tough situation one way or another, but faulting the Avengers solely for trying to prevent the extinction of earth isn't exactly fair.
    I don't fault them for saving the Earth. It's something they all the time after all, like Popeye saving Olive from Bluto. But I can think of two times in the story where constitutional law was just ignored. Being the law and following the law are supposed to be the same thing.

  15. #630
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Walton View Post
    Which the 3G people would feel very guilty about.

    "I've failed you again, Uncle Ben..."
    Maybe 3G people would get it, but slower.

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