Amazing Spider-Man #700 - Spoilers and Discussion (YOU'VE BEEN WARNED - SPOILERS)

[refrax5]

See, this mentality that the ends justify whatever means there were, it's why crappy status quo shake-ups happen. Look, I'm not saying all change is bad. I'm not saying that some good ideas can't come from bad origins. Whati'm saying is that continued acceptance of bad ideas because they might pay off just leads to more bad ideas. That because "you" (comics fandom) accept the crappy transition, there will always be a crappy transition. And enough crappy transitions are why 100,000 copies sold is now considered a great month.

But it's not an either/or proposition. Captain America doesn't have to get shot in the head for Bucky to be Captain America. He could just go to jail! Like he was going to anyway. You But no, we have to have a crappy death stunt. That no one believes. So you've robbed your traumatic moment of most of its trauma. I mean, 700 SHOULD have people up in arms over the death of their favorite character. But most aren't because most just don't take it seriously. Because most know it's just a stupid stunt to add finality where their is none.

Honestly, I don't see any of that Cap story working with him still being alive. It would have been an entirely different story. And again, how am I accepting it? If it's a bad story, I'm not going to read it. If it's a good story, I will. As for the problems comics are facing generally, it ain't because of stuff like this. If you think the decline of comics is a result of stunt-y stories...well, that's just inaccurate. Because there were plenty of stunt-y stories and big events in the 80's and especially the 90's.

I'm just saying that it's good to have some perspective. It's a comic book. Over the years of any comic, there are going to be highs and lows. No one knows what this is going to be yet, but I have a hard time getting too upset when I know that Peter will forever be a part of the comics, as well as zillions of cartoons and video games and movies. And like anything else, I don't think I'm "accepting" or encouraging anything. If it sucks, I won't buy it. That's....I think a lot more reasonable and fair than you're being.

[Mister Mets]

LOL!

It's a photoshop.

[Flyattractor]

It's a photoshop.

That dosen't make it any less funny.

[Hambone]

I'm actually surprised MJ didn't go running away screaming from SpOck as soon as he started acting "strange." She's been able to deduce when Pete had been replaced by Chameleon in a previous story, as well tell her husband apart from the various Spider-clones that kept showing up at her door during the "Clone Saga." There was also that big hoopla with the Skrulls replacing heroes during Secret Invasion which the whole world had a front row seat for. At this point any bizarre behavior should immediately raise a red flag for her!

[Mark_S]

I'm actually surprised MJ didn't go running away screaming from SpOck as soon as he started acting "strange." She's been able to deduce when Pete had been replaced by Chameleon in a previous story, as well tell her husband apart from the various Spider-clones that kept showing up at her door during the "Clone Saga." There was also that big hoopla with the Skrulls replacing heroes during Secret Invasion which the whole world had a front row seat for. At this point any bizarre behavior should immediately raise a red flag for her!

Does anyone at marvel even remember Secret Invasion?

[Ursalink]

Third part:

Let's review Dr Octopus "greatest hits" in life, shall we?:
+ He was the "Master Planner" who caused Spiderman to being buried under several tons of metal in a flooding base, making nearly impossible to carry the isotope to save Aunt May's life.
+ He was the repeated leader of almost every incarnation of "the Sinister Six", which main goal was almost always Spiderman's destruction.
+ He made Spiderman amnesic and tricked him into becoming his "partner in crimes".
+ He was the second in command of the villain's side in the "Secret Wars".
+ He caused the death of Captain George Stacy to escape from a battle against Spiderman.
+ He created his "personal assassin" with Charlotte Winter, the evil Spiderwoman, who stole the powers of all the other "Spider-Women".
+ Finally, he nearly destroys the whole world with his most recent arc, "Ends of the Earth".

He's not in the same level of Venom or the Green Goblin, but are you really telling me that now, the monster responsible of all this, is going to have Spiderman and Peter Parker's life as his own?!! DREAM ON!!!! Octopus has already broken the very first rule of being Spiderman... HE HAS KILLED SOMEBODY, PETER PARKER!!!!! This miserable bag of scum has cheated death by puting his enemy in his place!! No matter what you say or what they will say, this miserable coward will never be really worthy of being called "Spiderman"!!! They said they wanted to create a darker Spiderman, Batman's style. Well, I say... NO WAY!!! You want Batman?, then go to DC Comics; but leave our webslinger alone!!! While Marvel's "big heroes" (like the Avengers and the Fantastic Four) are always said to be the greatest protectors of the world, Spiderman's role has always been the guy who really carries the whole weight of the world over his shoulders. Because he's the guy who's always worried to protect the lifes of every single person and he's the one more in contact with the "regular citizen"; seeing and helping people so "insignificant" that the other heroes tend to ignore because their are too busy protecting "the world in general". That's the very essence of Spiderman, and if you remove it putting a jerk like Octopus under the mask, you destroy everything he represents. For "darker webslingers" we already have Kaine as the new Scartlet Spider and Flash Thompson as the new Venom. We can even count Jessica Drew's and Araña's past as "darker webslingers" compared with Spiderman. If there's not a single "friendly neighbourhood" in the Spider-Family, everyone will end having a serious case of arachnophobia.

[CyberHubbs]

Oh make no mistake, Norman Osborn is a villain through and through who you want to see get his comeuppance. And the reason why is because he killed Gwen Stacy and thus making it far more personal for Peter to defeat him. But a potential fight between Norman and Doc Ock has a completely different dynamic. In his own twisted way, Norman actually respects Peter and saw him as a worthy adversary. Doc Ock? He sees him as a pathetic fool and would most likely regard his victory over Spider-Man as dumb luck. Norman, being the smart guy that he is, would notice that the Superior Spider-Man is not the real Spider-Man, and if he figures out that it's Doc Ock, he would probably think Doc Ock is even more pathetic now than he ever was. He'd probably say, "Even though I always believed you wasted your potential, Otto, at least I admired the fact that you never tried to pretend to be someone other than yourself. That you didn't care what other people thought of you so long as they respected what you did, even if they were afraid of you. But now that you're trying to pass yourself off as someone whom I considered to be the greatest adversary I have ever known? The man who, deep down, I wished was more my own son than the one I have? That you actually believe you can live his life and that people will admire you for it? Face it, Otto. You're made yourself into an even more pathetic loser now than you ever were."

Norman straight-up lied to the world about his craziness, denied being the Green Goblin for years AND even faked an attack on the President of the United States to keep that lie going. Not to mention he started running around in Iron Man's armor. I'd say something about throwing stones, but Norman already pumpkin bombed his glass house years ago.

But there's a difference between Walter White and Doc Ock. Right from the first episode of Breaking Bad, we understood and sympathized with Walter--this was man who was dying of cancer, who was underpaid in his job as a teacher, who had a family that he loved and wanted to see financially secure before he died. This was someone who turned to crime and drug dealing out of desperation and the tragedy is that this once good man ends up doing more and more despicable things while losing sight of why he originally started out doing what he did in the first place.

But in the case of Doc Ock, how are we readers supposed to understand and sympathize with someone who murdered a beloved hero like Peter, did nothing to save him, isn't the least bit sorry that he's dead, has stolen his life and, even though he's protecting Peter's loved ones, is still going to be using, manipulating, and taking advantage of them? There's no pity for Doc Ock and wanting him to reach the top of that uphill battle because of how he began that uphill battle in the first place. That's one of the problems Superior Spider-Man is going to have, IMO, because we're being asked to root for a guy who we have no reason to root for.

See, I don't think we have to root for him in the same way we rooted for Peter. You're still suppose to want Peter to come back, and this is that journey to that point. In the meantime, yes, Otto might grow to appreciate and admire Peter, as he seemed to be doing in AvSP #15.1.

[Topher]

That dosen't make it any less funny.

The original video that was in is pretty funny too. And the #700 'shop was awesome!

[Xenon]

Norman killed Gwen, but Otto killed Peter. Sort of a choice between Hanable Lecture or Freddy Krueger. You hope they both die. Same way here. Ock dying while trying to be a better Spiderman than Peter would be nice, especially if he died screaming and we saw someone like Mephisto claim his soul.

I don't really want Peter's body to die too (again). Gotta have something to put him back in.

Honestly, I don't see any of that Cap story working with him still being alive. It would have been an entirely different story. And again, how am I accepting it? If it's a bad story, I'm not going to read it. If it's a good story, I will. As for the problems comics are facing generally, it ain't because of stuff like this. If you think the decline of comics is a result of stunt-y stories...well, that's just inaccurate. Because there were plenty of stunt-y stories and big events in the 80's and especially the 90's.

1) Him being dead doesn't change anything because being dead in the Marvel Universe is akin to having a forced vacation.
2) And those stunty stories have slowly whittled off readers. Especially as the quality of those stunts has declined. With the exception of the early 90s speculator craze, sale of comics books has been declining for decades. And while pinpointing the exact cause of something like that is basically impossible, it means that defending something just because they've always done it is foolishness. Doing things the same way is only an effective defense if things are going well. If they aren't, then you need more reasons that that.
3) Of course it's stuff like this is why comics suffer. Go give a synopsis to any one of your non-comic reading friends about who Superior is, how he got to be that way, and why it's not really a big deal because even though he died and Peter Parker will be back somehow someway. If you get anything other than laughter or eye rolls I'd be exceedingly surprised.

I'm just saying that it's good to have some perspective. It's a comic book. Over the years of any comic, there are going to be highs and lows. No one knows what this is going to be yet, but I have a hard time getting too upset when I know that Peter will forever be a part of the comics, as well as zillions of cartoons and video games and movies. And like anything else, I don't think I'm "accepting" or encouraging anything. If it sucks, I won't buy it. That's....I think a lot more reasonable and fair than you're being.

No, it's not, and yes, you are. It's not more reasonable, it's just more lenient. I have reasons, I don't like what they did and I have no interest in what they're doing. Ergo, not following the story is the reasonable response. Following the story would be the irrational response. If you don't like 700 and aren't interested in Doc Ock as Spider-Man, then you're not really being that reasonable. You're just being leniant. You're saying "well, I trust them". which is something you can do. But it's not fair or reasonable, it's just faith.

And yes, it's encouraging them. Because even if all the reviews came down that said replacing Peter Parker was a dumb move, if Superior sells well, then that's telling them that people don't REALLY care. It tells them they can do whatever they want, so long as they get a hook in there. That's accepting what they've done. That's encouraging them to do it again.

Finally, really, stop basing all your ideas off of one week old post made entirely out of emotion. I stand behind the post as it was what I was feeling at the time, but we've talked about these ideas in the days that followed and actually talked about "perspective" and the like. THAT'S why responding to an old post is weird when a dozen other follow it in response is a bad idea. Just because you're not on here every day doesn't mean you can't read the thread before responding.

[Mark_S]

I don't really want Peter's body to die too (again). Gotta have something to put him back in.

They can always grow him a new body.

[Mark_S]

Norman straight-up lied to the world about his craziness, denied being the Green Goblin for years AND even faked an attack on the President of the United States to keep that lie going. Not to mention he started running around in Iron Man's armor. I'd say something about throwing stones, but Norman already pumpkin bombed his glass house years ago.

But despite all of that somehow the writers at marvel put him in charge of national security and the heroes didn't do much until he went after Thor. That's the level of writing that I believe we're looking at here.

See, I don't think we have to root for him in the same way we rooted for Peter. You're still suppose to want Peter to come back, and this is that journey to that point. In the meantime, yes, Otto might grow to appreciate and admire Peter, as he seemed to be doing in AvSP #15.1.

And how will his newfound respect and admiration help Peter when/if Peter comes back and finds that Doc Ock has been running his life? In my opinion there is no way you can spin this so that Doc Ock is anything but scum no matter how much Slott favors him over Peter.

[refrax5]

I don't really want Peter's body to die too (again). Gotta have something to put him back in.



1) Him being dead doesn't change anything because being dead in the Marvel Universe is akin to having a forced vacation.
2) And those stunty stories have slowly whittled off readers. Especially as the quality of those stunts has declined. With the exception of the early 90s speculator craze, sale of comics books has been declining for decades. And while pinpointing the exact cause of something like that is basically impossible, it means that defending something just because they've always done it is foolishness. Doing things the same way is only an effective defense if things are going well. If they aren't, then you need more reasons that that.
3) Of course it's stuff like this is why comics suffer. Go give a synopsis to any one of your non-comic reading friends about who Superior is, how he got to be that way, and why it's not really a big deal because even though he died and Peter Parker will be back somehow someway. If you get anything other than laughter or eye rolls I'd be exceedingly surprised.



No, it's not, and yes, you are. It's not more reasonable, it's just more lenient. I have reasons, I don't like what they did and I have no interest in what they're doing. Ergo, not following the story is the reasonable response. Following the story would be the irrational response. If you don't like 700 and aren't interested in Doc Ock as Spider-Man, then you're not really being that reasonable. You're just being leniant. You're saying "well, I trust them". which is something you can do. But it's not fair or reasonable, it's just faith.

And yes, it's encouraging them. Because even if all the reviews came down that said replacing Peter Parker was a dumb move, if Superior sells well, then that's telling them that people don't REALLY care. It tells them they can do whatever they want, so long as they get a hook in there. That's accepting what they've done. That's encouraging them to do it again.

Finally, really, stop basing all your ideas off of one week old post made entirely out of emotion. I stand behind the post as it was what I was feeling at the time, but we've talked about these ideas in the days that followed and actually talked about "perspective" and the like. THAT'S why responding to an old post is weird when a dozen other follow it in response is a bad idea. Just because you're not on here every day doesn't mean you can't read the thread before responding.

I doubt those events have slowly whittled off readers, considering they sell much better than quiet, better-written books. AvX was pretty horrible in my opinion, but it outsold pretty much every single book that concentrates on character and actual storytelling. I'm not saying that's a good thing. But there is a lot more to comics declining over the past 20 years than that. I see that more as a desperate attempt to generate sales, rather then what is causing the drop in the first place.

I never said you had to read it if you don't want to. I don't care. No one is forcing you. I'm just saying it's obnoxious to give somebody crap for going, "Well, I'm curious about it. If it sucks, I won't read it." The first issue or two is going to sell plenty from people like me, who are curious or trying to give it a chance. If it's bad, people like me will drop it pretty soon and I think that'll get the same message across. I doubt Marvel's going to be all that encouraged by the first issue selling like crazy and then it plummeting downward in sales. The test of whether the concept is good or bad or if people are liking it is going to be in seeing if it has actual legs or if everyone drops it after 2 issues. It's just rude to blame somebody just for saying, "I'm going to give it a chance" and not being as outraged over a comic book storyline as you. I've learned to be more open-minded about this stuff over the years. I'm not saying anyone should be reading it or even saying it's a good idea. I honestly don't know. But I'm done defending myself for buying something simply because you're outraged by it.

And sometimes these threads get pretty long and I'm generally just going to respond to a specific thought or poster that catches my eye. Sorry if that's weird to you, but you seem to be reiterating a lot of the same thoughts so it can't be all that irrelevant of a post after all.

[Aziz Abbasi]

I keep thinking of this classic

Whenever I think of this recent tale

[Xenon]

They can always grow him a new body.

I'm trying to minimize the damage this story is doing.

I doubt those events have slowly whittled off readers, considering they sell much better than quiet, better-written books. AvX was pretty horrible in my opinion, but it outsold pretty much every single book that concentrates on character and actual storytelling. I'm not saying that's a good thing. But there is a lot more to comics declining over the past 20 years than that. I see that more as a desperate attempt to generate sales, rather then what is causing the drop in the first place.

Of course it outsold every single book. Because comic book fans fall for it. Crossovers are the perfect example of what I'm talking about. It doesn't grow readership. No one comes in off the street and goes "oh, I think I'll buy this huge crossover thing". It sells because it's a cross-over. So Thor fans and Iron Man Fans and Spider-Man fans and Cyclops fans all buy it in the off chance their character might do something important or relevant to their character's continuing plot line. It's why every year they tease that the book will have far reaching impact, and every year it disappoints. Because even though it sucks, the fans buy it anyway. Because they hold out hope that it might get better, that something MIGHT happen later on. But it's not more readers coming in to buy the event books. It's that all the readers that are already there buy the event books to go along with the books they actually like.

I never said you had to read it if you don't want to. I don't care. No one is forcing you. I'm just saying it's obnoxious to give somebody crap for going, "Well, I'm curious about it. If it sucks, I won't read it." The first issue or two is going to sell plenty from people like me, who are curious or trying to give it a chance. If it's bad, people like me will drop it pretty soon and I think that'll get the same message across. I doubt Marvel's going to be all that encouraged by the first issue selling like crazy and then it plummeting downward in sales. The test of whether the concept is good or bad or if people are liking it is going to be in seeing if it has actual legs or if everyone drops it after 2 issues. It's just rude to blame somebody just for saying, "I'm going to give it a chance" and not being as outraged over a comic book storyline as you. I've learned to be more open-minded about this stuff over the years. I'm not saying anyone should be reading it or even saying it's a good idea. I honestly don't know. But I'm done defending myself for buying something simply because you're outraged by it.

1) Excuse me? You started this whole mess. Don't act like you're the persecuted when you're the one who started giving ME crap about being upset by 700.
2) You're completely missing the point to get on your high horse. No, they'll be encouraged to know they can **** with stuff without consequence. If Superior #1 sells high (which it WILL), then people are voicing their acceptance. They're saying, "yeah, you can destroy whatever you like and I'll give the next thing a chance anyway". THAT'S the problem. THAT'S why it's not an either/or situation. New ideas are wonderful. But the readers should demand that they don't have to take crap to get the new stories. We shouldn't have to go through contrived resurrection plots questionable mind swaps just so they can tell the new story. The quality of the result is irrelevant, my problem is the waste they go through to get there.

And sometimes these threads get pretty long and I'm generally just going to respond to a specific thought or poster that catches my eye. Sorry if that's weird to you, but you seem to be reiterating a lot of the same thoughts so it can't be all that irrelevant of a post after all.

1) I'm compulsive.
2) What you're doing is the equivalent of putting the book down halfway and complaining that it doesn't ahve a good ending. Of course not. You stopped reading halfway through. You wanna talk about rude, talk to yourself.

[Mark_S]

I'm trying to minimize the damage this story is doing.

Come to think of it why didn't Doc Ock just build himself a new body? He could have gone to Doom or someone like that. As I recall the X-men did it for Prof X when the brood had taken over his body. I guess there is a bit of satisfaction in grabbing Spiderman's body, but really he could have tried for someone like Thor's body and been in a lot better shape.