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  1. #496
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Yes, but I think the problem lies in the fact that, because of the way Otto became Spider-Man, most the readers reading Superior Spider-Man will not want Doc Ock to succeed. They'll want to see him humiliated. They want to see him fail. They want to see his ass get beat every...single...time. Personally, I know that in an eventual battle between the Green Goblin and SpOck, I'm rooting for the Green Goblin instead of the titular character who supposed be new protagonist of the title.
    Given that the Green Goblin killed Gwen, I don't see why you'd root for him. That's someone who wasn't even involved in the superhero game.

    I don't necessarily have to root for Otto as Spider-Man, in the same way I don't exactly root for Walter in Breaking Bad, but I don't want to see him lose either. The point is to witness that uphill battle, and maybe like how Otto goes about it. See if, in the end, he can make up for all the bad things he did.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  2. #497
    I wanna hear you scream Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    Given that the Green Goblin killed Gwen, I don't see why you'd root for him. That's someone who wasn't even involved in the superhero game.

    I don't necessarily have to root for Otto as Spider-Man, in the same way I don't exactly root for Walter in Breaking Bad, but I don't want to see him lose either. The point is to witness that uphill battle, and maybe like how Otto goes about it. See if, in the end, he can make up for all the bad things he did.
    I think after something like Kieron Gillen's Journey Into Mystery story with Loki, and his explanations as to why it ended the way it did, I don't see how anyone can think Otto will actually change.

    (This doesn't mean the journey won't be worth reading. If the stories end up being good, it will have been worthwhile.)
    The monster saved them all. And in their fear, they betrayed him. As they always have. As they always will.

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  3. #498
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I think after something like Kieron Gillen's Journey Into Mystery story with Loki, and his explanations as to why it ended the way it did, I don't see how anyone can think Otto will actually change.

    (This doesn't mean the journey won't be worth reading. If the stories end up being good, it will have been worthwhile.)
    I think the fact that Otto is having so much trouble adjusting to being a good guy is going to mean he actually does focus on being just that in a sorta-legitimate way. I suppose it could go the other way, by the finale, and circumstances outside his control force him back into the role of villain.

    But yeah, the journey should be interesting.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  4. #499
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tendrin View Post
    Fair point. But I think sharing a mind with the murderer of your lost love who fathered children with her is a different *kind* of dark. Also, the less we have to revisit Sins Past, the better. XD
    Hey, I'll take any opportunity to eliminate that abomination from continuity. If we have to shove Peter into Norman's body to find out it was all an elaborate lie or he slept with Gwen's mother or something, I'm all for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by RyanParkerMan View Post
    That's a great point. Having the guy that killed you walk around in your body. That's seriously f'd up. Hey, I brought it up because the book is darker now and I think it's a possibility.

    My thinking, and this is just how i'm thinking about this, is that Peter's not in his body right now. He doesn't know what Ock's doing. He's nowhere right now. You're completely right in stating how dark the ending of 700 was. The story didn't feel all that dark to me, but the ending was very dark. I think Peter inside of Norman Osborn, a psychopathic murderer that hates you more than Doc Ock does, is even darker than that. I'm not sure how I'd feel about reading ASM after Peter's been through 700 and then through living in Norman O's mind.
    It didn't feel dark because the ending is treated like a promo. Instead of a quiet moment of reflection for the death of everyone's favorite superhero, we get a big splash page telling us to buy Superior Spider-Man #1.

    Quote Originally Posted by refrax5 View Post
    That's a pretty narrow and hardline view. I'm not really defending anything. I'm just saying that there have been plenty of times that comic companies shake up the status quo---the main character being replaced by a new guy is old hat and is temporary 99% of the time---and people freak out and overreact and it either ends up being a much better story than expected or it just ends up swept under the rug and forgotten. And I don't just acept things I don't like. I read what interests me at the time. I don't stop reading something out of protest normally. If it doesn't hold my interest, I don't read it. If it does, then I will. I think that's pretty reasonable and nothing like just accepting things I don't like.

    Like I said, comic companies to this kind of "crap" all the time and I doubt I'm all that responsible for it. But I guess it depends on your definition of crap. Crap like what keeps happening? Bucky as Captain America? Kaine becoming a good guy and the new Scarlet Spider? Damian Wayne becoming Robin to Grayson's Batman? Eric Masterson as Thor? Rhodey as Iron Man? Because while people threw fits about all those as well, I thought there were a lot of good stories and characters that came out of it.

    And like I said, if it sucks, I won't read it and wait until Peter comes back, which is almost a certainty. But I'm at least going to try and have an open mind and actually decide if it's crap by, you know, reading it and having an informed opinion.

    EDIT: Hn...some of my responses accidentally got posted in your text part. Whoops.
    See, this mentality that the ends justify whatever means there were, it's why crappy status quo shake-ups happen. Look, I'm not saying all change is bad. I'm not saying that some good ideas can't come from bad origins. Whati'm saying is that continued acceptance of bad ideas because they might pay off just leads to more bad ideas. That because "you" (comics fandom) accept the crappy transition, there will always be a crappy transition. And enough crappy transitions are why 100,000 copies sold is now considered a great month.

    But it's not an either/or proposition. Captain America doesn't have to get shot in the head for Bucky to be Captain America. He could just go to jail! Like he was going to anyway. You But no, we have to have a crappy death stunt. That no one believes. So you've robbed your traumatic moment of most of its trauma. I mean, 700 SHOULD have people up in arms over the death of their favorite character. But most aren't because most just don't take it seriously. Because most know it's just a stupid stunt to add finality where their is none.



    Quote Originally Posted by ceroxide View Post
    Rogue absorbs memories and personality traits when she touches someone, that's why for years she was in constant battle with Ms.Marvel and in the last A+X when she kissed Black Widow she suddenly knew all about Natasha's relationships and secrets, so yeah if she touches/kisses SpOck she'll know everything, and with both of them being in the Avengers now...

    I really think Superior has way too many bullets to dodge... Good thing Spidey's so quick on his feet :P
    Realistically, sure, but then again, he's hidden his identity from most with all those dangers there anyway. Of course, Psychics and Dr. Strange tend to know it immediately, so they're a problem, but meh. They'll just ignore it.
    When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.-C.S.Lewis

  5. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    Given that the Green Goblin killed Gwen, I don't see why you'd root for him. That's someone who wasn't even involved in the superhero game.

    I don't necessarily have to root for Otto as Spider-Man, in the same way I don't exactly root for Walter in Breaking Bad, but I don't want to see him lose either. The point is to witness that uphill battle, and maybe like how Otto goes about it. See if, in the end, he can make up for all the bad things he did.
    Norman killed Gwen, but Otto killed Peter. Sort of a choice between Hanable Lecture or Freddy Krueger. You hope they both die. Same way here. Ock dying while trying to be a better Spiderman than Peter would be nice, especially if he died screaming and we saw someone like Mephisto claim his soul.

  6. #501
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Norman killed Gwen, but Otto killed Peter. Sort of a choice between Hanable Lecture or Freddy Krueger. You hope they both die. Same way here. Ock dying while trying to be a better Spiderman than Peter would be nice, especially if he died screaming and we saw someone like Mephisto claim his soul.
    Sure, part me of me wants to see horrible killers die in a fire. That's a human thing. But I'd hate for good fictional villains to be killed just because they're terrible human beings, 'cause they're part of what makes fictional stories fun.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  7. #502

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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    Given that the Green Goblin killed Gwen, I don't see why you'd root for him. That's someone who wasn't even involved in the superhero game.
    Oh make no mistake, Norman Osborn is a villain through and through who you want to see get his comeuppance. And the reason why is because he killed Gwen Stacy and thus making it far more personal for Peter to defeat him. But a potential fight between Norman and Doc Ock has a completely different dynamic. In his own twisted way, Norman actually respects Peter and saw him as a worthy adversary. Doc Ock? He sees him as a pathetic fool and would most likely regard his victory over Spider-Man as dumb luck. Norman, being the smart guy that he is, would notice that the Superior Spider-Man is not the real Spider-Man, and if he figures out that it's Doc Ock, he would probably think Doc Ock is even more pathetic now than he ever was. He'd probably say, "Even though I always believed you wasted your potential, Otto, at least I admired the fact that you never tried to pretend to be someone other than yourself. That you didn't care what other people thought of you so long as they respected what you did, even if they were afraid of you. But now that you're trying to pass yourself off as someone whom I considered to be the greatest adversary I have ever known? The man who, deep down, I wished was more my own son than the one I have? That you actually believe you can live his life and that people will admire you for it? Face it, Otto. You're made yourself into an even more pathetic loser now than you ever were."

    I don't necessarily have to root for Otto as Spider-Man, in the same way I don't exactly root for Walter in Breaking Bad, but I don't want to see him lose either. The point is to witness that uphill battle, and maybe like how Otto goes about it. See if, in the end, he can make up for all the bad things he did.
    But there's a difference between Walter White and Doc Ock. Right from the first episode of Breaking Bad, we understood and sympathized with Walter--this was man who was dying of cancer, who was underpaid in his job as a teacher, who had a family that he loved and wanted to see financially secure before he died. This was someone who turned to crime and drug dealing out of desperation and the tragedy is that this once good man ends up doing more and more despicable things while losing sight of why he originally started out doing what he did in the first place.

    But in the case of Doc Ock, how are we readers supposed to understand and sympathize with someone who murdered a beloved hero like Peter, did nothing to save him, isn't the least bit sorry that he's dead, has stolen his life and, even though he's protecting Peter's loved ones, is still going to be using, manipulating, and taking advantage of them? There's no pity for Doc Ock and wanting him to reach the top of that uphill battle because of how he began that uphill battle in the first place. That's one of the problems Superior Spider-Man is going to have, IMO, because we're being asked to root for a guy who we have no reason to root for.
    Blog: Yes, I Am STILL a Nerd!

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  8. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    Given that the Green Goblin killed Gwen, I don't see why you'd root for him. That's someone who wasn't even involved in the superhero game.

    I don't necessarily have to root for Otto as Spider-Man, in the same way I don't exactly root for Walter in Breaking Bad, but I don't want to see him lose either. The point is to witness that uphill battle, and maybe like how Otto goes about it. See if, in the end, he can make up for all the bad things he did.
    How can you not root for Walter?!

  9. #504
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One More Day View Post
    How can you not root for Walter?!
    Last season pretty much cemented his descent into the role of crime kingpin. Especially after the thing with the train and the kid. BUT, that's why he's compelling.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
    -Theophilus

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    Sure, part me of me wants to see horrible killers die in a fire. That's a human thing. But I'd hate for good fictional villains to be killed just because they're terrible human beings, 'cause they're part of what makes fictional stories fun.
    I can see that yes, but at the same time marvel had no trouble killing the actual hero. Besides being dead and being in hell are the end of things for villains in the mu.

  11. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    Last season pretty much cemented his descent into the role of crime kingpin. Especially after the thing with the train and the kid. BUT, that's why he's compelling.
    But he's an alpha male now, he's merely rightfully taking what's his

  12. #507

  13. #508
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One More Day View Post
    But he's an alpha male now, he's merely rightfully taking what's his
    I do like that he seems to be forgetting why he got into the meth business. He could have made money after the train heist, and yet it just wasn't enough. Walter has had a taste of power and he wants more.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  14. #509

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    I don't understand why no one comments my first post. Let's try with this one:

    I'm telling you, THIS CAN'T BE PERMANENT!! Because if it is, Marvel will pay deeply losing considerable cuantity of money through Spiderman. Look, a superhero is much more than a silly costume and some amazing powers; it's the story of an "ordinary human" who decides to use his/her skills and life in a good cause which s/he believes. You can't have Superman without Clark Kent, the farmer boy-scout who grown in a humble farm in Kansas. You can't have Batman without Bruce Wayne, the rich child who saw his parent's murder and sworn revenge through the justice. And of course, you can't have Spiderman without Peter Parker, the young nerd who learned to balance power with responsibility after losing his uncle Ben. Now the one behind Spiderman's mask (and also Peter Parker's mask) is in fact the mean Dr Octopus, a crazy evil genius with greatness delirium who the only thing he really cares is himself. You may think that Peter Parker's memories will keep him "under control", but that won't last; because sooner or later, the real self of Doc Ock will want to come out, ruining that way everything that Peter Parker's loved. This is exactly like Norman Osborn's "Dark Reign", when he made a big farce that turned him into "the greatest hero of the world" at the eyes of everybody; when in fact he was the same old psychopath monster. At the end, everything went down with him when (as every of us knew) he couldn't keep his real self hidden anymore, the Green Goblin. So this junk with Octopus usurping Spiderman and Peter Parker's life can't last forever either.

  15. #510
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursalink View Post
    I don't understand why no one comments my first post. Let's try with this one:

    I'm telling you, THIS CAN'T BE PERMANENT!! Because if it is, Marvel will pay deeply losing considerable cuantity of money through Spiderman. Look, a superhero is much more than a silly costume and some amazing powers; it's the story of an "ordinary human" who decides to use his/her skills and life in a good cause which s/he believes. You can't have Superman without Clark Kent, the farmer boy-scout who grown in a humble farm in Kansas. You can't have Batman without Bruce Wayne, the rich child who saw his parent's murder and sworn revenge through the justice. And of course, you can't have Spiderman without Peter Parker, the young nerd who learned to balance power with responsibility after losing his uncle Ben. Now the one behind Spiderman's mask (and also Peter Parker's mask) is in fact the mean Dr Octopus, a crazy evil genius with greatness delirium who the only thing he really cares is himself. You may think that Peter Parker's memories will keep him "under control", but that won't last; because sooner or later, the real self of Doc Ock will want to come out, ruining that way everything that Peter Parker's loved. This is exactly like Norman Osborn's "Dark Reign", when he made a big farce that turned him into "the greatest hero of the world" at the eyes of everybody; when in fact he was the same old psychopath monster. At the end, everything went down with him when (as every of us knew) he couldn't keep his real self hidden anymore, the Green Goblin. So this junk with Octopus usurping Spiderman and Peter Parker's life can't last forever either.
    I think very few people are saying it's permanent.

    It is a nice little experiment, though.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
    -Theophilus

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