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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveAtThee View Post
    Civil War was terrible. What happened to heroes fighting villains? Now there are hardly any credible ones.
    Pretty much. We're kinda at the end of Marvel villains.

  2. #32
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Because it was very obvious who was wrong. Iron Man.
    They could have had a could "No side is right", but Iron man was continually shown more and more evil and wrong.

    Not to mention, both sides are out of character. Like Cap refusing to negotiate.
    Stark wasnt evil or wrong the problem was that the other people were morons.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikekerrIII View Post
    If that was what they were going for they didn't present it very well since folks that were not superheoes in any way were effected also
    The SHRA and the Initiative were two separate things.
    Last edited by Sighphi; 12-25-2012 at 09:56 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    Stark wasnt evil or wrong the problem was that the other people were morons.
    Cloning Thor
    Using actual villains
    Getting Goliath killed
    Prison in another dimension.
    Imprisoning allies.

    They made it pretty clear he was wrong.

  4. #34
    Pirelli's Miracle Elixir Probably_not_a_Nurgling's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Cloning Thor
    Using actual villains
    Getting Goliath killed
    Prison in another dimension.
    Imprisoning allies.

    They made it pretty clear he was wrong.
    Not to mention the whole false flag operation thing in Frontline, which was actually portrayed as a GOOD thing.

    Just... go away, Paul Jenkins.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melab View Post
    Its premise is connected to the real world it was the first full scale conflict between Marvel heroes of its type. Those are reasons that would seem to make it interesting.
    It was poorly written IMHO. The arguments they made were not fully supportive, in my mind, by characters who were acting responsibly enough. I don't buy the idea that the New Warriors would do something as dumb as a reality show, no matter what their financial status was. I do believe that superheroes do need to be trained and formally inducted into the American law enforcement because the mess they cause demands they finally become accountable. The idea that they need to reveal their ideas publicly is stupid because they could have just demanded secrecy just like other members of America's organizations. So what if that makes them like a secret police force? It doesn't have to be written like their the Gestapo. They don't work for a fascist government. And I do think organisations like SHIELD could be useful in protecting their civilian lives. They just wanted a big event that had more drama and less rationality.

  6. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Because it was very obvious who was wrong. Iron Man.
    They could have had a could "No side is right", but Iron man was continually shown more and more evil and wrong.

    Not to mention, both sides are out of character. Like Cap refusing to negotiate.
    I dunno, I think Iron Man was right, its just that Marvel felt compelled to make his side strangely villainous in methods.

  7. #37
    I'm a male DebkoX's Avatar
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    I've just read it and it 'twas brilliant.
    “The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.”

  8. #38
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Cloning Thor
    Using actual villains
    Getting Goliath killed
    Prison in another dimension.
    Imprisoning allies.

    They made it pretty clear he was wrong.
    What's the deal with the Thor buster robot? I dont get it, everyone freaking out that he made some Asgardian skin. Iron Man has buster equipment against everything, why does this all of a sudden become evil?

    Thunderbolts program was started by the CSA.

    Goliath getting killed was partly his fault for breaking the law and partly Skrull Pym messing with Thorminator.

    Neg Zone prison was created by Reed and what's wrong with it? That you dont give people a fair chance to run away like they aways do in the prisons on earth?

    What allies did Stark imprison? Just because a friend is breaking the law it doesnt mean that you ignore it because he is your friend.

    No there was nothing clear about him being wrong, somehow some readers made that decision based on their own twisted version of events.

    Quote Originally Posted by Probably_not_a_Nurgling View Post
    Not to mention the whole false flag operation thing in Frontline, which was actually portrayed as a GOOD thing.

    Just... go away, Paul Jenkins.
    What was wrong with this?
    Last edited by Sighphi; 12-26-2012 at 12:27 AM.

  9. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Because it was very obvious who was wrong. Iron Man.
    They could have had a could "No side is right", but Iron man was continually shown more and more evil and wrong.

    Not to mention, both sides are out of character. Like Cap refusing to negotiate.
    I liked it as a story but like Stan Lee says he doesn't like heroes fighting heroes.

    But I agree with what you said about blatantly making it so obvious Tony was so wrong. FFS when he started using Chipped villains including the Osborn. Norman frigging Osborn. The most evil sack of poop ever to grace the Marvel universes. And then as the fallout from CW he ends up running SHIELD (which I might add is not as stupid as DC having Lex Luthor as president). He really lost his way. Reed Richards you could nearly "excuse" in the same way we excuse all the evil scientists inflict upon the world like Oppenheimer...
    Last edited by Mobe1969; 12-26-2012 at 02:37 AM.

  10. #40
    Elder Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    I have re-re-read it recently and think that it is a great limited series.
    Especially art wise,and the story remains interesting untill issue 7.
    Pull List:New Avengers,Thor,Superior Spider-Man,Mighty Avengers,Swamp Thing,Daredevil,Uncanny Avengers,Superior Foes of Spider-Man.

  11. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melab View Post
    Could they all have been good without losing any of them? At some point you have to come with a story first.
    Having an outline for a story doesn't mean that you'll then force dozens of square pegs into round holes to have it work unmodified. Millar didn't appear to give a damn about the characters that form the wealth of Marvel - his simplistic story came first, decades of characterisation be damned. This is especially jarring when handling characters who are way smarter than the writer, such as Richards or Stark.
    www.writeups.org - the biggest, bestest character profiles site for comics and movies. Now 5000+ entries.

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  12. #42
    Comic Fanboy Spidey_Legend's Avatar
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    Civil War sucks because it was written by Mark Millar and supervised by Joe Quesada. Simple like that.

  13. #43
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Songbird/Diamondback View Post
    Because it was very obvious who was wrong. Iron Man.
    They could have had a could "No side is right", but Iron man was continually shown more and more evil and wrong.
    See, I thought Iron Man was right in supporting registration and that Captain America was a doofus in that story with his head buried in the sand. But then for no reason at all Stark started turning into a fascist and carrying the villain ball.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  14. #44
    Senior Member Whip Whirlwind's Avatar
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    E Wilson pointed out most of my issues with it, although I still think it's an enjoyable story. One of the more enjoyable "Events" imo.

    But the main thing is that it wasn't all that well written, and for a book that was going to, as E Wilson put it "Take a sledgehammer to suspension of disbelief" it really needed to be written better.

    That and a big flaw of the book is that Cap isn't allowed to be wrong (even when he admits he was wrong later), and as a result Tony and Reed got a good ways out of character, discrediting pretty much their whole argument.

  15. #45
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Civil War was a nice idea but the story did force characters to act all funny. Civil War is a good but flawed story.

    Iron Man's actions didn't exactly match his POV. Him supporting the SHRA was perfectly fine but him acting all villain like by employing unreformed criminals, throwing his allies into the negative zone and getting Goliath killed was just unnecessary and seemed to be added to the story for shock value.

    The only way to enjoy the story is to completely forget about the characters previous, umm, characterization and just accept what your seeing.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

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