Batman vs wolverine

[Pendaran]

The skin is irrelevant. What matters is his self-healing brain being encased in metal. That's why he doesn't get knocked out. If every single time he got punched and his face was gone and he was still standing would you still have problems with it? Or would it be more of a "that's totally bs his upper body should be gone too"?

That depends, does Wolverine's face have the power to act as an impact absorber for the rest of his body? Are you basically saying that as long as Wolverine is only ever punched in the face, his stuff with Collossus and the Grey Hulk and whoever else is fine, but if they ever hit him in the stomach or what have you /then/ he should be goo?

I just see the fleshy thing as a non-issue.

Repeating this doesn't turn it into a non issue, it just means you have no real answer for it beyond the same stuff that lets anyone else survive a superstrong hit, making it thereby not a feat of any kind for Wolverine.

Bricks somehow manage not to annihilate the floor under them every time they fight.

So again, Wolverine himself can't really take their hits, he's being shielded by narrative convention, gotcha. Also, are they hitting the floor, or Wolverine?

That's the equivalent of Wolverine's fleshy bits

Do you understand that you make no sense when you say Wolverine can "tank these hits" then compare him to things that only survive such stuff because of conventions? That doesn't actually have anything to do with Wolverine.

Even the glancing blow from the hulk which you think is clearly the way all brick/wolvie encounters should go, didn't smear anything. Surely if that was a legit punch it should have splattered Wolverine from Canada to Australia leaving mutant goo streaking the skies.

Nothing but some nebulous fraction of a hit from the Hulk? You understanding by defintion a glancing blow is not "a legit punch" and that's why it's a glancing blow?

Adamantium Skull.

Is not actually his entire body.

How exactly? And what about the lower strength guys like Roughouse. Are you discounting those feats too?

Weeell, of the top of my head, getting stabbed in the heart, and pretty much any time less than what would be tens of thousands of tons of force has managed to significantly impair him. And that depends, how strong would you like to say Roughouse is?

Not quite on the same level. How many feats does he have against speedsters? Besides identity crisis, and that one godawful Teen Titans arc where he gets saved by Inertia I can't think of any.

Nearly every single time he has fought the Teen Titans or shown up against a Flash he does shit like that. He's at least twice out reacted Superman. Comparing the number of times one guy has appeared (a metric fuckton) to another guy (a comparative fraction of that), it's just fine as comparisons go.

Not really knowledgeable on these guys besides Cold having a slowing down cold field and what not.

Cold's slowing down field is frankly a relatively recent to him development. Other than that, they all just hit the guy. A lot. There was a point where Heat Wave and Cold actually simultaneously zotted him. They even have little moments where they brag against other people they go up against about their reflexes because they fight a speedster all the time.

This of course does not change that like having no appreciable superhuman durability to something like the Grey Hulk, they have no superhuman reflexes (well, the Top, one supposes to mention)

I don't think Deathstroke's feats are thrown out due to an artist's convention though. It would make more sense to me for you to explain how Wolverine has a ton of showings were bricks one shot him than to harp about a silly writer's convention.

Did PIS stop being an explination now? Deathstroke is super happy as regards his showings then and Cap and Batman are filled with nothing but love for all the meta hits that have landed on them over the years, explosions they've come out of, and what have you.

If we're now at the point of "artist conventions" for having to justify Wolverine's showings, how again are these showings worth mentioning at all?

Inconsistencies like the fleshy bits we have been discussing are the same illogical shit that deal with Spider-Man's weakness to sharp things, Superman's premonition hearing, and the ground never caving in when hulk fights someone in his strength range. You could probably be making a similar case right now by remarking that if Wolverine really was getting punched with legit super-strength why is he not sent into space? Why is he not sent flying every time? Does he weigh as much as a battleship? Surely if Wonder Man had torn into him for real Wolverine would have been sent flying for Kilometers? and why did Wonder Man not smear him? That's just illogical.

Why did Wonder Man not smear him? The same PIS that makes for him not smearing anyone he hits without superhuman durability.

Here's your problem: If you don't want to argue Wolverine has superhuman durability, Wolverine only has an ability to deal with hits that kicks in after the fact of them. In that case, the only reason he doesn't splatter is why /everyone else with no superhuman durability doesn't splatter/.

Whereas people with actual blunt force/piercing disparities in their superhuman durability? That's at least a noted thing.

Here's how logic actually goes here: Does someone have specifically compartmentalized superhuman durability? Then that's what they have. It may be silly, but that's what they have as a thing of them, that is the basis from which to work up from as far as any discussion that builds.

Does someone have /no superhuman durability/? And from your shying away from saying so despite numerous opportunities given, I can only assume for this many posts you don't think Wolverine does. Then it becomes illogical for them to respond to a hit like they do have a thing, that they don't have. Because they don't have it.

[hydro123456]

There's a whole lot of things on his body not his skeleton.



"No but it's a comic and nothing about it will ever make sense" is not a durability feat for Wolverine, it's why bricks can punch any street level opponents from Captain America to a non vibranium wearing Black Panther to Daredevil a bunch of times over the years and not end up with red mist. That says nothing about Wolverine.



So, how powerful would you say a thunderclap from the Grey Hulk is then? Iron Fist strike? Punch from Spiderman? Punch from Tombstone? Punch from when he was Captain America era John Walker?

As far as I understand it's about feats, and he has them, a lot of them, way more than guys like Daredevil and Cap. A bunch of his regular rogues gallery has super strength, and he gets hit by them often, unlike guys like Cap and Daredevil. When I say "No but it's a comic and nothing about it will ever make sense", that's not meant to be a durability feat, by that I just mean that a reason isn't required, what matters is that he has the feats. Can you give me an example of another character that has plenty of feats, but doesn't get to use them because it's unrealistic?

I'd say a thunderclap is usually pretty weak unless the environment shows unusual damage. More often than not bricks use them to stun fast characters they can't hit, but it's not like they use them against other bricks. No where near as powerful as they can hit, that's for sure.

[Beadle]

Can you give me an example of another character that has plenty of feats, but doesn't get to use them because it's unrealistic?

He doesn't have "feats", in that sense. He has either:

1) PIS.
2) SMvFL
3) Opponents failing to utilise their own abilities fully (which is pretty much an example of 1. again, but it bears a little extra consideration).

And yes, we have lots of those. Deathstroke being a classic.

[hydro123456]

He doesn't have "feats", in that sense. He has either:

1) PIS.
2) SMvFL
3) Opponents failing to utilise their own abilities fully (which is pretty much an example of 1. again, but it bears a little extra consideration).

And yes, we have lots of those. Deathstroke being a classic.

I'm not saying he can handle guys like Hulk, or even Grey Hulk, but his regular rogues gallery is full of guys with super strength. Obviously lower tier super strength, but far stronger than Cap. How often does someone need to display it before it becomes a feat rather than PIS?

[moonknight11]

That depends, does Wolverine's face have the power to act as an impact absorber for the rest of his body? Are you basically saying that as long as Wolverine is only ever punched in the face, his stuff with Collossus and the Grey Hulk and whoever else is fine, but if they ever hit him in the stomach or what have you /then/ he should be good?

So basically you want every part of wolverine to disappear as soon as he gets hit. Of course even a near miss should liquefy his organs right?

Repeating this doesn't turn it into a non issue, it just means you have no real answer for it beyond the same stuff that lets anyone else survive a superstrong hit, making it thereby not a feat of any kind for Wolverine.

If Wolverine's explanation for his brick resistance wasn't his skeleton you would be right. But it isn't. It is specifically noted that his skull is what keeps him safe. Yeah it makes no sense that his fleshy bits remain but you gotta deal with it since time and time again it is specifically brought up. Whether his face falls off or not, he still takes damage and his survival is noted as it being his skeleton. Arguing about his flesh is a red herring, since his flesh is not what protects him unlike every other street-level guy.

So again, Wolverine himself can't really take their hits, he's being shielded by narrative convention, gotcha. Also, are they hitting the floor, or Wolverine?

The narrative convention is not in wolverine's brain surviving the fights. It's in his skin and facial muscle. Wolverine's brain is kept around by his skull and healing factor. and his brain is what gets knocked out. Whether his face is gone or not is irrelevant, since the explanation deals with his skull.

Do you understand that you make no sense when you say Wolverine can "tank these hits" then compare him to things that only survive such stuff because of conventions? That doesn't actually have anything to do with Wolverine.

The core of the issue is Wolverine not getting knocked out. His face being gone is immaterial since he can function without his face, and continue clawing around.

Nothing but some nebulous fraction of a hit from the Hulk? You understanding by defintion a glancing blow is not "a legit punch" and that's why it's a glancing blow?

Surely a glancing blow from a guy that lifts mountains is enough to pulverize and liquefy wolverine. Wolverine is just a regular dude who gets hurt by bullets and arrows after all right?

Is not actually his entire body.

His face is what attracts fists though. It's where Juggernaut punched him to one-shot him(and even then there was no smearing, how bizarre). It's where all these guys punch him, back hand him or kick him the vast majority of the time.

Weeell, of the top of my head, getting stabbed in the heart, and pretty much any time less than what would be tens of thousands of tons of force has managed to significantly impair him. And that depends, how strong would you like to say Roughouse is?

Messing with internal organs is different than getting punched in the face. Especially the heart that pumps all of the healing factor blood throughout the body. Especially when unlike the brain, the heart is not nearly as protected. Roughouse seems like a class 5-10 or so. He punched Wolverine through walls, and lifted a car which he slammed down on wolverine.

Nearly every single time he has fought the Teen Titans or shown up against a Flash he does shit like that. He's at least twice out reacted Superman. Comparing the number of times one guy has appeared (a metric fuckton) to another guy (a comparative fraction of that), it's just fine as comparisons go.

His feats are more comparable to when Wolverine tanks getting punched by Gladiator, cuts Thanos, slices King Thor or some ridiculous shit like that. I thought the strongest of the guys in my list(grey hulk) was a class 70? Deathstroke's feats are way more ridiculous.

Cold's slowing down field is frankly a relatively recent to him development. Other than that, they all just hit the guy. A lot. There was a point where Heat Wave and Cold actually simultaneously zotted him. They even have little moments where they brag against other people they go up against about their reflexes because they fight a speedster all the time.

This of course does not change that like having no appreciable superhuman durability to something like the Grey Hulk, they have no superhuman reflexes (well, the Top, one supposes to mention)

If they had something that gives them superhuman reflexes would their feats be legit? Because Wolverine has his adamantium skull to tank all kinds of shots.

Did PIS stop being an explination now? Deathstroke is super happy as regards his showings then and Cap and Batman are filled with nothing but love for all the meta hits that have landed on them over the years, explosions they've come out of, and what have you.

Wolverine has a good explanation for his stuff however. Cap's and Batman's and Deathstroke's skulls are still only human. Wolverine has something extra.

If we're now at the point of "artist conventions" for having to justify Wolverine's showings, how again are these showings worth mentioning at all?

Again, artist conventions are not responsible for Wolverine staying conscious. The writers keep making it obvious that his thick, indestructible skull is what keeps his brain nice and cozy. They just explain the fleshy bits inconsistencies. The fleshy bits are immaterial. If his face was gone, what would change? nothing. We'd be arguing this still. You'd probably be saying that his brain should be liquefied and knocked around his head.

Here's your problem: If you don't want to argue Wolverine has superhuman durability, Wolverine only has an ability to deal with hits that kicks in after the fact of them. In that case, the only reason he doesn't splatter is why /everyone else with no superhuman durability doesn't splatter/.

Whereas people with actual blunt force/piercing disparities in their superhuman durability? That's at least a noted thing.

Here's how logic actually goes here: Does someone have specifically compartmentalized superhuman durability? Then that's what they have. It may be silly, but that's what they have as a thing of them, that is the basis from which to work up from as far as any discussion that builds.

Does someone have /no superhuman durability/? And from your shying away from saying so despite numerous opportunities given, I can only assume for this many posts you don't think Wolverine does. Then it becomes illogical for them to respond to a hit like they do have a thing, that they don't have. Because they don't have it.

Here's what I am arguing.

Wolverine has superhuman durability that keeps him from getting knocked out. It's his skull and healing factor. His skull is what tanks punches time and time again. It's where a young colossus hit him. It's where everyone hits him. Punching him into the ground was shown on panel as being very effective by Namor, all his organs were crushed(and he was still conscious). It's not like he survives the punches and is impervious either. He's always bleeding and messed up by the super-strong punches. Blood always erupts.

Now even if we throw most of these above say a class 10 out. Every single one. Cap still can't get a ten count, Cap still needs help to win. Not when Wolvie's stayed conscious while getting blindsided by planes, grenades, cars, hails of bullets, various superhumans, and getting disembowled.

[The MunchKING]

Somebody is going to view this panel as Wolverine jobbing Iron Fist but time and time again Wolverine fights with Daredevil, Captain America,Black Widow and Iron Fist.

So is the next page Squirell Girl just ROFLstomping him as only a comedic charecter can??

[The MunchKING]

Why do these characters not completely annihilate the clothes of everyone they fight? Why are all these bricks not completely naked every time they fight? Is spandex capable of tanking class 100 hits?

Actually, In Marvel, I think it is!

Well OK, spandex isn't. But noone's used Spandex since the 40s. Everyone uses Reed's "unstable Molecules" or whatever uniforms that insures no matter how badly the superhero gets beat, he'll still be able to pass the comic code.

[HectorP]

So is the next page Squirell Girl just ROFLstomping him as only a comedic charecter can??

He puts her on a hold, her squirrels surround them, he calls it quits.

Take it or leave it.

[Pendaran]

I thought the strongest of the guys in my list(grey hulk) was a class 70?

There's a lot there and I'll definitely get to it, but just to start with this? The Grey Hulk was generally depicted as being at least as strong as the Thing, and has any number of decent performances to support that. It's particularly telling that the pineapple Thing, i.e. the spiky mutated powered up version of the Thing, only really did as great as he did on the Grey Hulk by taking him on during a period of the day when the Grey Hulk was weaker than he was outside of it.

So no.

[Pendaran]

If Wolverine's explanation for his brick resistance wasn't his skeleton you would be right. But it isn't. It is specifically noted that his skull is what keeps him safe. Yeah it makes no sense that his fleshy bits remain but you gotta deal with it since time and time again it is specifically brought up. Whether his face falls off or not, he still takes damage and his survival is noted as it being his skeleton. Arguing about his flesh is a red herring, since his flesh is not what protects him unlike every other street-level guy.

Arguing about his flesh is pointing out that a guy with no relevant superhuman durability takes hits like he does anyway, so no.

And again this takes us back to, so whenever anyone hits Wolverine somewhere besides the face, that should totally smear such places. After all, his skull is not located in his stomach, his groin, his arms, the like, unless you're arguing his skull generates an intangible adamtium forcefield that protects him.

Yeah it makes no sense that his fleshy bits remain but you gotta deal with it since time and time again it is specifically brought up.

Well that explains his face then, I guess! And the rest of him, by that logic? His skull nanosecond teleports to everywhere else vulnerable otherwise?

The narrative convention is not in wolverine's brain surviving the fights. It's in his skin and facial muscle. Wolverine's brain is kept around by his skull and healing factor. and his brain is what gets knocked out. Whether his face is gone or not is irrelevant, since the explanation deals with his skull.

"If Wolverine is ever punched by a brick in the stomach, that should all turn to vapour" Well, I guess I can meet you in the middle ground of what your statements have the natural conclusion of thereby.

So basically you want every part of wolverine to disappear as soon as he gets hit. Of course even a near miss should liquefy his organs right?

Hey man, you're the one making the arguement that Wolverine only tanks the hits he does so long as no one ever hits him somewhere besides the face.

The core of the issue is Wolverine not getting knocked out. His face being gone is immaterial since he can function without his face, and continue clawing around.

So Wolverine totally does get by on PIS, is your arguement, but it's the PIS of no brick ever thinking to punch him in the guts.

Well that's certainly interesting.

Messing with internal organs is different than getting punched in the face

So Wolverine totally does get by on PIS, is your arguement, but it's the PIS of no brick ever thinking to punch him in the guts.

Well that's certainly interesting.

The only thing between his internal organs and their fist after all, is basically skin.

If they had something that gives them superhuman reflexes would their feats be legit? Because Wolverine has his adamantium skull to tank all kinds of shots.

You understand you are arguing that Wolverine's skull would let him tank a punch to the stomach.

Wolverine has a good explanation for his stuff however. Cap's and Batman's and Deathstroke's skulls are still only human. Wolverine has something extra.

He has nothing that gives him any kind of relevant durability anywhere but his skull, according to you.

Again, artist conventions are not responsible for Wolverine staying conscious. The writers keep making it obvious that his thick, indestructible skull is what keeps his brain nice and cozy. They just explain the fleshy bits inconsistencies. The fleshy bits are immaterial. If his face was gone, what would change? nothing. We'd be arguing this still. You'd probably be saying that his brain should be liquefied and knocked around his head.

Actually right now what I want to know is how anything you are saying makes any kind of sense if Wolverine ever gets punched in the gut. Is it just PIS that no one ever thinks to do that then? Because you've basically said that Wolverine can only tank hits to the face. I'll get back to his human durability brain rattling around in an adamantium cage.

Here's what I am arguing.

Wolverine has superhuman durability that keeps him from getting knocked out. It's his skull and healing factor. His skull is what tanks punches time and time again. It's where a young colossus hit him. It's where everyone hits him. Punching him into the ground was shown on panel as being very effective by Namor, all his organs were crushed(and he was still conscious). It's not like he survives the punches and is impervious either. He's always bleeding and messed up by the super-strong punches. Blood always erupts.

So you are straight up arguing that people would totally be vapourizing vast chunks of him if they would only think to just punch a wee bit lower.

And again, you're now trying to go with that a guy with no superhuman durability outside of his skull would survive superhuman body blows of vast strength to the gut with the result being anything but torso slurry. It's certainly.... interesting.

And /again/ his healing factor is not durability or it would not work after the fact of his getting injured, you are using some definition of durability that does not.. make any sense with it.

[Pendaran]

I want to isolate this, just because I'm curious:

Punching him into the ground was shown on panel as being very effective by Namor, all his organs were crushed(and he was still conscious).

Namor uses naval destroyers as hand weapons. Namor hits a human being with that level of strength, what happens?

[Sharpandpointies]

Closed Pending Review