Batman vs wolverine

[Billy Batson]

Wolverine. Spite.

[Pendaran]

Are they turning his skeleton into red mist too? Because his indestructible skull and his healing factor are the in-story reasons for him tanking super-strong punches. And tanking explosions. and tanking getting hit by a plane.

Unfortunately this fails logic. I'll ask you again, is Wolverine superhumanly durable or not? If not, then his flesh and organs, which are not his bones, how does a punch from the grey Hulk not completely pulp him into goo? Are you actually also using stuff from an overall sequence in Wolverine's history that culminated in his healing factor being explicity depowered besides?

But let's stick a pin in that last question.

If Wolverine is not so durable that Spiderman's fists should break on his skin, and bullets flatten on it, how does a non PIS fueled punch from multi thousand ton screwing around bricks not leave him red mist? His healing factor would only let him recover from this happening after the fact, it's not actual durability.

Because his indestructible skull and his healing factor are the in-story reasons for him tanking super-strong punches.

Because his ability to use 90% of his brain and meta reflexes are the in story reasons for him outmaneuvering Flashes.

[Pendaran]

I'll try to reduce this to simple questions.

Does Wolverine have superhuman durability on a vast scale? Yes or no.

Are Wolverine's flesh and organs and what have you the things hanging off his bones, instead of being themselves adamantium? Yes or no.

Does Wolverine's healing factor work so quickly and to such potency that were he reduced to organic slurry, would he recover from that in nanoseconds? Yes or no.

If the answer to these questions are what they are likely to be (spoiler code: no, yes, no) then how does a punch from the Grey Hulk, without PIS, not turn him to slurry? You keep saying healing factor, as though it was the word "durability" despite it blatantly being not the case, or Wolverine would not be effected by various things in the first place to have to heal from them. You talk about "plane crashes and explosions" like you actually think they are on the scale of beings who screw around with tens of thousands of tons like it's nothing.

[Pendaran]

Hey, that reminds me, when Wolverine has been taken out for a spell by having claws or what have you driven up into his heart by Sabertooth, low showing, right? Creed just jobbing him right out? Just trying to sort out what all falls below the benchmark of "taking hits from the Grey Hulk"

[moonknight11]

Unfortunately this fails logic. I'll ask you again, is Wolverine superhumanly durable or not? If not, then his flesh and organs, which are not his bones, how does a punch from the grey Hulk not completely pulp him into goo? Are you actually also using stuff from an overall sequence in Wolverine's history that culminated in his healing factor being explicity depowered besides?

He was explicitly depowered from his godverine (i regrow my entire body from a skeleton lol) phase. It's not like his feats are on the level of say his adventures in madripoor where his healing factor was weak enough that getting shot was a big deal. He still tanks all kinds of shit regardless of his depowered healing factor, just look at Uncanny X-Force. Anyway I was actually talking about it on a meta-level. The writers themselves have amped his HF like they do with the powers of a lot of other heroes. In his first appearances Thing was only in the 5 ton range and look at him now. Back in his first appearances wolvie didn't even show a healing factor

But let's stick a pin in that last question.

If Wolverine is not so durable that Spiderman's fists should break on his skin, and bullets flatten on it, how does a non PIS fueled punch from multi thousand ton screwing around bricks not leave him red mist? His healing factor would only let him recover from this happening after the fact, it's not actual durability.

Because writers don't understand the implications of super-strength? Because writers don't really bother with what would happen in reality? That seems to be the best explanation really. In real life, wolverine should lose his face's fleshy bits when getting punched but this is comics.

Because his ability to use 90% of his brain and meta reflexes are the in story reasons for him outmaneuvering Flashes.

Does Deathstroke also have hundreds of showings(starting from his earliest appearances) where he outmaneuvers the flash?

[Pendaran]

Because writers don't understand the implications of super-strength? Because writers don't really bother with what would happen in reality? That seems to be the best explanation really. In real life, wolverine should lose his face's fleshy bits when getting punched but this is comics.

So basically you just argued that the only reason Wolverine doesn't get splattered by these punches is the same reason Captain America doesn't when bricks of various scale hit him. Or pretty much anyone who is not some vastly durable being gets hit by someone with superstrength to a noticeable degree. You get that then is not any kind of showing for his durability or healing factor or /anything/ at all.

Does Deathstroke also have hundreds of showings(starting from his earliest appearances) where he outmaneuvers the flash?

You know what's interesting? You say stuff like this:

starting from his earliest appearances

But you also keep saying how you can't count things from Wolverine's earlier showings, he was weaker then, even though he's gone on, even right down to now, to have showings just fine with them, like, for instance, say, being clawed in the heart taking him out for an extended period.

But really, relative to Deathstroke's comparative appearances vis a vis Wolverine's? He jobs people out tons, from Flashes to Superman to the JLA.

[moonknight11]

I'll try to reduce this to simple questions.

Does Wolverine have superhuman durability on a vast scale? Yes or no.

Are Wolverine's flesh and organs and what have you the things hanging off his bones, instead of being themselves adamantium? Yes or no.

Does Wolverine's healing factor work so quickly and to such potency that were he reduced to organic slurry, would he recover from that in nanoseconds? Yes or no.

Not quite. His brain is encased in his bones, not hanging off them but yes he has fleshy bits. No.

If the answer to these questions are what they are likely to be (spoiler code: no, yes, no) then how does a punch from the Grey Hulk, without PIS, not turn him to slurry? You keep saying healing factor, as though it was the word "durability" despite it blatantly being not the case, or Wolverine would not be effected by various things in the first place to have to heal from them.

Why do these characters not completely annihilate the clothes of everyone they fight? Why are all these bricks not completely naked every time they fight? Is spandex capable of tanking class 100 hits?

As it stands, Wolverine has a consistent high end of taking super-strong hits and staying conscious. It doesn't go against his presentation either. He's always been the guy who gets hit by strong guys and gets back up. He's always been the "I have an indestructible skull so i'll be fine, come on and punch me" type of guy. Logically his face should be smeared every time that happens, but if logic were all that mattered Supes wouldn't have hearing that worked before sound ever reached his ears.

You talk about "plane crashes and explosions" like you actually think they are on the scale of beings who screw around with tens of thousands of tons like it's nothing.

I mention them because they are closer to the class 10-20 guys. And because they are far above what Cap can pull.

[Pendaran]

But you know, to be honest, even trying the "it's like how Cap doesn't get smeared" just doesn't work for me. We've seen, be it a bunch of bullets, Captain America, Creed clawing Wolverine in the heart, punches from people well weaker than the Grey Hulk, we've seen various things hurt Wolverine for him to heal from, regardless of how fast he does in any particular case. And if all these things, so vastly, ridiculously beneath hits from Thing+ strong bricks, hurt him, how would a punch from the Grey Hulk not completely smear him? We're not even into "because comics!" we're into "because simple logic". His healing factor, as noted, heals him after things affect him, and not, as you apparently agree, within nanoseconds regardless of what it is. How when apparently all those other things can at least hurt him, would not a punch from the Grey Hulk epically, ridiculously fuck him up on sheer overwhelming power? At minimum, let's lowball it as much as possible, knock him out.

If you use the words "healing factor and skeleton" you also need to use the words "every time he has been so much as hurt by anything less than a strike from beings who mess around with tens of thousands of tons, jobbing".

[Pendaran]

I mention them because they are closer to the class 10-20 guys. And because they are far above what Cap can pull.

So, are you going to go back and edit out all the people way the hell beyond those guys in your post talking about all those hits Wolverine can tank and the people who can't put him down? Because even "class 10-20 guys" should be breaking their fists on his skin by your metrics.

Not quite. His brain is encased in his bones, not hanging off them but yes he has fleshy bits. No.

Look down. Tell me where the bone plating over your stomach, intestine and what like are. Over your muscles generally.

Why do these characters not completely annihilate the clothes of everyone they fight? Why are all these bricks not completely naked every time they fight? Is spandex capable of tanking class 100 hits?

So basically Wolverine can't actually take these hits, he's getting by on what Captain America or fight bystanders do as far as narrative convention.

As it stands, Wolverine has a consistent high end of taking super-strong hits and staying conscious.

Based off nothing that would let him do so, I know.

It doesn't go against his presentation either.

tons and tons and tons of times it does, along with starkly going against the presentation of the people he takes the hits of as far as what they can do to everything from battleships to hills to skyscrapers to onwards.

He's always been the guy who gets hit by strong guys and gets back up.

Deathstroke has always been the guy who gets attacked by superspeedsters and outmaneuvers them.

the Flash's rogues are always the guys who manage somehow to hit him at least the once when encountering him.

He's always been the "I have an indestructible skull so i'll be fine, come on and punch me" type of guy.

Deathstroke has always been the "my 90% of my brain use lets me outdo blatant metahumans" guy.

Logically his face should be smeared every time that happens, but if logic were all that mattered Supes wouldn't have hearing that worked before sound ever reached his ears.

Do you know what terrible analogies are? Terrible analogies are things like trying to act like a guy with basically no superhuman durability (since you're not seeming to claim any for him) taking punches from high end bricks is the same thing as the scientific nuances of Superman's powers.

[moonknight11]

So basically you just argued that the only reason Wolverine doesn't get splattered by these punches is the same reason Captain America doesn't when bricks of various scale hit him. Or pretty much anyone who is not some vastly durable being gets hit by someone with superstrength to a noticeable degree. You get that then is not any kind of showing for his durability or healing factor or /anything/ at all.

Cap doesn't have an in-story reason, or really the same presentation that wolverine does. When colossus exclaims that he hit Wolverine right in the face at full strength it's clear what the author's intent was even though no fleshy bits were vaporised.

You know what's interesting? You say stuff like this:



But you also keep saying how you can't count things from Wolverine's earlier showings, he was weaker then, even though he's gone on, even right down to now, to have showings just fine with them, like, for instance, say, being clawed in the heart taking him out for an extended period.

Wolverine's earliest showings were he took hits from Thunderbird, were before any kind of healing factor were introduced. Getting clawed to the heart isn't much of an incosistency. Blood loss taxes Wolverine's healing factor immensely, and going after the heart is a sure way to stop Wolvie.

But really, relative to Deathstroke's comparative appearances vis a vis Wolverine's? He jobs people out tons, from Flashes to Superman to the JLA.

So where do you peg Wolverine? Is every single showing where he tanked something above Captain America thrown out?

Also I was wondering, do you have a problem with Spider-Man? He has class 15+ strength and durability and yet bullets and knives can hurt him. How is that possible? How can a guy that gets hurt by bullets not get splattered every time he fights Venom?

[HectorP]

We've seen, be it a bunch of bullets, Captain America, Creed clawing Wolverine in the heart, punches from people well weaker than the Grey Hulk, we've seen various things hurt Wolverine for him to heal from, regardless of how fast he does in any particular case.

Hails of arrows have pincushioned him without him having a dismissive laugh about it either even in modern times, if my memory of that African royalty baby saving mission isn't hazy.

Maybe he has "compartmentalized durability".

And all this about face smearing reminds me Simon Williams did exactly that to him when Wolverine was in his way (totally not wanting to instigate people into raising the bar on where that kind of thing is supposed to start to happen to Wolvs).

[Pendaran]

Cap doesn't have an in-story reason

Sure he does, why, he was risen to the peak of human capacity! It's just about as relevant as a power that you seem not to be arguing only works after the fact of being injured in some way.

When colossus exclaims that he hit Wolverine right in the face at full strength it's clear what the author's intent was even though no fleshy bits were vaporised.

I didn't know we let that be some kind of excuse for jobbing these days.

Getting clawed to the heart isn't much of an incosistency. Blood loss taxes Wolverine's healing factor immensely, and going after the heart is a sure way to stop Wolvie.

You are now trying to bend over backwards to say that somehow Sabertooth taking out Wolverine for an extended period by clawing him in the heart is not inconsistent to his just taking hits from beings that lowball screw around with tens of thousands of tons. I can't fathom how you can feel that there is no inconsistency in trying to claim that both these things can co-exist. Why should that tax Wolverine's healing factor immensely if being hit by the Grey Hulk a bunch of times can't? Why should blood loss be an issue at all?

So where do you peg Wolverine? Is every single showing where he tanked something above Captain America thrown out?

I'd certainly throw out everything he laughs off as not remotely impairing him above the lower end bricks, at absolute minimum. Everything where he's just quick recovering anyone from let's say.. Classic Rogue and up hitting him? Spectacularly I'd throw out in addition.

Also I was wondering, do you have a problem with Spider-Man? He has class 15+ strength and durability and yet bullets and knives can hurt him. How is that possible? How can a guy that gets hurt by bullets not get splattered every time he fights Venom?

Do you know what completely terrible analogies are? Taking one of the few people in comics not Wonder Woman who actually does have compartmentalized durability as regards piercing/slashing type messing with him and saying it's somehow the same as any of this.

[hydro123456]

I'll try to reduce this to simple questions.

Does Wolverine have superhuman durability on a vast scale? Yes or no.

Are Wolverine's flesh and organs and what have you the things hanging off his bones, instead of being themselves adamantium? Yes or no.

Does Wolverine's healing factor work so quickly and to such potency that were he reduced to organic slurry, would he recover from that in nanoseconds? Yes or no.

If the answer to these questions are what they are likely to be (spoiler code: no, yes, no) then how does a punch from the Grey Hulk, without PIS, not turn him to slurry? You keep saying healing factor, as though it was the word "durability" despite it blatantly being not the case, or Wolverine would not be effected by various things in the first place to have to heal from them. You talk about "plane crashes and explosions" like you actually think they are on the scale of beings who screw around with tens of thousands of tons like it's nothing.

I'm going to skip your other post because I obviously got back to it late.

I'm going to say that yes, he does have some level of durability, and storyline-wise it is derived from his skeleton. Does that make sense in real life? No, but it's a comic and nothing about it will ever make sense. What matters is his feats, and he tanks shots from guys like Cyber, Omega Red, Rough House, and a whole host of others. Guys like the Grey Hulk are too much for him, but he seems to handle the lower level guys pretty consistently. I would say surviving a thunderclap from Grey Hulk is within his abilities though as thunder claps are rarely shown to be that devastating, especially since the Grey Hulk is the weakest Hulk..

He can also cut through steel which makes no sense, but he does it over and over again to the point where it can't be called PIS.

[moonknight11]

So, are you going to go back and edit out all the people way the hell beyond those guys in your post talking about all those hits Wolverine can tank and the people who can't put him down? Because even "class 10-20 guys" should be breaking their fists on his skin by your metrics.

The skin is irrelevant. What matters is his self-healing brain being encased in metal. That's why he doesn't get knocked out. If every single time he got punched and his face was gone and he was still standing would you still have problems with it? Or would it be more of a "that's totally bs his upper body should be gone too"?

So basically Wolverine can't actually take these hits, he's getting by on what Captain America or fight bystanders do as far as narrative convention.

I just see the fleshy thing as a non-issue. Bricks somehow manage not to annihilate the floor under them every time they fight. That's the equivalent of Wolverine's fleshy bits. Even the glancing blow from the hulk which you think is clearly the way all brick/wolvie encounters should go, didn't smear anything. Surely if that was a legit punch it should have splattered Wolverine from Canada to Australia leaving mutant goo streaking the skies.

Based off nothing that would let him do so, I know.

Adamantium Skull.

tons and tons and tons of times it does, along with starkly going against the presentation of the people he takes the hits of as far as what they can do to everything from battleships to hills to skyscrapers to onwards.

How exactly? And what about the lower strength guys like Roughouse. Are you discounting those feats too?

Deathstroke has always been the guy who gets attacked by superspeedsters and outmaneuvers them.

Not quite on the same level. How many feats does he have against speedsters? Besides identity crisis, and that one godawful Teen Titans arc where he gets saved by Inertia I can't think of any.

the Flash's rogues are always the guys who manage somehow to hit him at least the once when encountering him.

Not really knowledgeable on these guys besides Cold having a slowing down cold field and what not.

Deathstroke has always been the "my 90% of my brain use lets me outdo blatant metahumans" guy.

I don't think Deathstroke's feats are thrown out due to an artist's convention though. It would make more sense to me for you to explain how Wolverine has a ton of showings were bricks one shot him than to harp about a silly writer's convention.

Do you know what terrible analogies are? Terrible analogies are things like trying to act like a guy with basically no superhuman durability (since you're not seeming to claim any for him) taking punches from high end bricks is the same thing as the scientific nuances of Superman's powers.

Inconsistencies like the fleshy bits we have been discussing are the same illogical shit that deal with Spider-Man's weakness to sharp things, Superman's premonition hearing, and the ground never caving in when hulk fights someone in his strength range. You could probably be making a similar case right now by remarking that if Wolverine really was getting punched with legit super-strength why is he not sent into space? Why is he not sent flying every time? Does he weigh as much as a battleship? Surely if Wonder Man had torn into him for real Wolverine would have been sent flying for Kilometers? and why did Wonder Man not smear him? That's just illogical.

[Pendaran]

I'm going to say that yes, he does have some level of durability, and storyline-wise it is derived from his skeleton.

There's a whole lot of things on his body not his skeleton.

Does that make sense in real life? No, but it's a comic and nothing about it will ever make sense. What matters is his feats, and he tanks shots from guys like Cyber, Omega Red, Rough House, and a whole host of others. Guys like the Grey Hulk are too much for him

"No but it's a comic and nothing about it will ever make sense" is not a durability feat for Wolverine, it's why bricks can punch any street level opponents from Captain America to a non vibranium wearing Black Panther to Daredevil a bunch of times over the years and not end up with red mist. That says nothing about Wolverine.

I would say surviving a thunderclap from Grey Hulk is within his abilities though as thunder claps are rarely shown to be that devastating, especially since the Grey Hulk is the weakest Hulk

So, how powerful would you say a thunderclap from the Grey Hulk is then? Iron Fist strike? Punch from Spiderman? Punch from Tombstone? Punch from when he was Captain America era John Walker?