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  1. #2566
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Man Crawl Space View Post
    Yeah you were banned after you got three warnings to not personally attack or insult fellow posters, just like we give everyone else. That didn't stop you from logging in several times with a different IP to post after you were banned. .

    But as you say, it's old news and I don't' want to get into that either. I'm actually cool with you, my only complaint is your constant digs at the site. And I feel we have a bit in common. You're defensive of your comic and I'm defensive of my site. We're Missouri boys so I think we can be civil.

    I feel your perception of the Crawlspace is based on posters on the board like KBox and a few others don't represent the whole of the site. Folks like Kbox post other places yet it's easy to attribute him as a Crawlspace "pearl clutcher." The thing I think we have in common is, and Mets this is aimed your way too, I tend to think of CBR based on posters like RyanParkerman. So the negative feelings come from a few of your CBR "pearl clutchers."
    Parkerman doesn't represent CBR anymore than KBox represents the Crawlspace.

    So how do we move forward and be civil?
    This one is aimed at Mister Mets. When you were banned you wrote me an e-mail with this line in it.

    Good grief that was back in 2009.



    In the interest of mending fences, If you'd like back I'll give you a second chance.

    BD
    I'll gladly take you up on that.

    I was careless. I said so in the explanation.

    I'd gladly have gone my entire life without explaining why I was banned from a website 3+ years ago, but someone else brought it up in a public forum on which I am quite active.
    Sincerely,
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  2. #2567
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomSlick View Post
    This thread is hilarious in its absurdity.

    It reminds me of the old Looney Tunes when the main character would be attacked on both sides by the villain of the week. There would be a big - literally - dust up in which the bad guys (in this case, the fans) would start slugging it out, and the hero (in this case, Wacker, since he's the whole reason the thread started) would slide out under the pack and watch from afar (maybe even taking a bite out of a carrot).

    So, as Wacker stated a little earlier: Please proceed.

    My friends from work (and they don't like or read comics) are getting a kick out of this thread.
    This is not one of my proudest days. It really has been a dumb thing to argue about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Farmernudie View Post
    Wow, both CBR and CRAWLSPACE out of line here...talking about what he said she said, YEARS AGO even. Wackers nuances against crawlspace, that we all know he and slott also have a history of slying knocking. I mean, everyone on here talking about the other claims innocence and defends their nuances for less then they are in actuality. he banned me and she banned me and they said this and obviously everyone is touchy about everything, on BOTH sides.

    This thread is derailed from topic and both sides contributing to it. Yes! There have been lots of jerks at both sides over the years and both sites, and still are, i am sure, but this isn't the "Prove Your Better Fanness Thread".
    I think the conflicts regarding the Crawlspace stem from a difference in philosophy on how fans and pros should interact with one another. So it is on-topic to a degree.
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  3. #2568
    Senior Member RyanParkerMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Man Crawl Space View Post
    Yeah you were banned after you got three warnings to not personally attack or insult fellow posters, just like we give everyone else. That didn't stop you from logging in several times with a different IP to post after you were banned. .

    But as you say, it's old news and I don't' want to get into that either. I'm actually cool with you, my only complaint is your constant digs at the site. And I feel we have a bit in common. You're defensive of your comic and I'm defensive of my site. We're Missouri boys so I think we can be civil.

    I feel your perception of the Crawlspace is based on posters on the board like KBox and a few others don't represent the whole of the site. Folks like Kbox post other places yet it's easy to attribute him as a Crawlspace "pearl clutcher." The thing I think we have in common is, and Mets this is aimed your way too, I tend to think of CBR based on posters like RyanParkerman. So the negative feelings come from a few of your CBR "pearl clutchers."
    Parkerman doesn't represent CBR anymore than KBox represents the Crawlspace.

    BD
    Dude, what are you talking about? I've been here for years and in all that time I said about three good things about your site and three bad things. Dude, repost what I said about your site. Please. Do it for all of us. You are seriously out of your mind.

    You came at me and I called you a hypocrit. In a recent post to Shaggy, you've endorsed your hypocritical behaviors.

    And please please please don't compare me to a guy that spends his time making fake sales charts and spider-man pornos. I'd never surround myself with someone like that. The fact that you do is your business and your decision.

    Also, posting a private message between you and Mets that's 4 years old... lol

    Seriously though, you're painting me as some horrible poster with a vendetta against crawlspace. This simply isn't true. I've said many good things about the site. Well, not many but I also haven't said as many bad things as you are reporting. What did I say? That 3 or 4 people still post there? That they're anti-omd? Is that really so bad? I also praised the Friday Night Fight Feature and Bertones contributions. I've also "liked" you guys on facebook for years and my family donated to the red cross when that terrible tornado ripped through your town. I didn't have any problem with you guys till 3 or 4 days ago when you brought up a very very light jokeI made months ago.

    You made a big deal about nothing for your own personal gain.

    And the only thing I've said about you since you started this is that you're a hypocrit. And with that i'm done. You seem like the type that likes the last word. You can have it.
    Kevin Nichols is jealous of my friendship with Oldschool.

  4. #2569
    Senior Member RyanParkerMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomSlick View Post
    This thread is hilarious in its absurdity.

    It reminds me of the old Looney Tunes when the main character would be attacked on both sides by the villain of the week. There would be a big - literally - dust up in which the bad guys (in this case, the fans) would start slugging it out, and the hero (in this case, Wacker, since he's the whole reason the thread started) would slide out under the pack and watch from afar (maybe even taking a bite out of a carrot).

    So, as Wacker stated a little earlier: Please proceed.

    My friends from work (and they don't like or read comics) are getting a kick out of this thread.
    Yeah being a part of this is pretty embarrassing.
    Kevin Nichols is jealous of my friendship with Oldschool.

  5. #2570
    Junior Member Batman Examiner's Avatar
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    You came at me and I called you a hypocrit. In a recent post to Shaggy, you've endorsed your hypocritical behaviors.
    I didn't see it as an endorsement as much as him agreeing with Shaggy's take on the situation. Brad admitted he should have risen about your comments as he's wanted others to do. Not an endorsement, but acknowledgement of a mistake.

    And please please please don't compare me to a guy that spends his time making fake sales charts and spider-man pornos. I'd never surround myself with someone like that. The fact that you do is your business and your decision.
    In before "LEAVING OUT TOP TWO THIRDS OF DATA".

    Regarding your last point, please see my previous post. It was an honest question. What do you think about letting banning someone for actions elsewhere? Where's the line? I'm honestly asking.


    Also, posting a private message between you and Mets that's 4 years old... lol
    That actually led to the warmest moment Mets and BD had in years and now Mets back on the board. He was quoting the message because it seemed to contradict what Mets had said regarding his banning here, but now they seem on the same page (although that is for them to say not me).

    I also praised the Friday Night Fight Feature and Bertones contributions.
    Stop praising Bertone...he effing sucks.


    I've also "liked" you guys on facebook for years and my family donated to the red cross when that terrible tornado ripped through your town.
    Good on you.

  6. #2571
    1906 Xistel's Avatar
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    This has gotten so off topic and it has become just dirty laundering in public.

    Can we please get on the original topic or just close the thread? It's way too negative
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  7. #2572
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Hmmmm, things seem to be calming down. Can't have that.

    Uh....umm......I'm glad Lex took those forty cakes and it wasn't terrible? He was trying to save everyone's waistline! I'm sure Rich Johnston/Brad Douglas/Steven Wacker/JMS/Quesada/Batman/MisterMets/RyanParkerman/Norman Osborn told me that one time. Isn't that dastardly? Or something?

    Sort of related, am I the only one sad that SamRuby hasn't updated it's otherwise complete database in like four years? Someone should figure out a way to add all the missing issues. =\
    When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.-C.S.Lewis

  8. #2573
    Junior Member Batman Examiner's Avatar
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    Sam Ruby was my first online Spider-Man reviewing gig. Back when I was "Julio Barone". I didn't feel comfortable using my real name back then because I was a teenager and everyone was always telling me about the boogeyman that would get you if you put your real name online. The guy who ran the site Eric was really nice. He sent me vintage comics as a thank you. This was back in 2002/2003.

  9. #2574
    Senior Member RyanParkerMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman Examiner View Post
    I didn't see it as an endorsement as much as him agreeing with Shaggy's take on the situation. Brad admitted he should have risen about your comments as he's wanted others to do. Not an endorsement, but acknowledgement of a mistake.
    Had a comment here but I really am done. I made my point.

    In before "LEAVING OUT TOP TWO THIRDS OF DATA".
    lol

    Regarding your last point, please see my previous post. It was an honest question. What do you think about letting banning someone for actions elsewhere? Where's the line? I'm honestly asking.
    I don't know man. I just find it creepy and disgusting and if I was on your boards I wouldn't interact with someone like that. I haven't had my best couple of days here lately but there are people on here and facebook that I don't interact with because their actions and overall creepiness.


    That actually led to the warmest moment Mets and BD had in years and now Mets back on the board. He was quoting the message because it seemed to contradict what Mets had said regarding his banning here, but now they seem on the same page (although that is for them to say not me).
    It did. You guys are lucky to have him over there. He's a good guy.



    Stop praising Bertone...he effing sucks.

    Good on you.
    I never had a problem with you guys. Your boss overreacted and went out of his way to make a problem with me. I'm sure you remember the conversation that caused all of this. I was talking good about you and other contributors before I knew it was you.
    Last edited by RyanParkerMan; 04-25-2013 at 11:59 AM.
    Kevin Nichols is jealous of my friendship with Oldschool.

  10. #2575

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    Yeah I miss Samruby.com too. I've talked to Eric over the years. He's one of those long time readers that lost interest in the books after OMD. He pretty much gave up updating the site after that. I talk to him on Facebook now and then. He's a good guy.

  11. #2576
    Science > Politics Dog's Avatar
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    I don't know what a Crawl Space is (other than the kind in someone's house), but the guy who uses that name doesn't come across well.

    Also, why are we ignoring the fact that there's an "e" in "hypocrite?"
    Every week, I write about the science in comic books and what it says about our real world!
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  12. #2577

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    It's funny, first you guy chastise the creators, and now you're trying to kill each other.

    Nice one, Wacker. Divide and conquer LOL

  13. #2578
    Moderator Mister Mets's Avatar
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    I mentioned earlier that there seems to be a conflict of philosophies which ties into perceptions regarding that message board Slott and Wacker have disagreed with.

    I'm copying and pasting from some posts made in this thread and from the similar discussions on how pros behave, so this didn't take me as long to write as it appears.

    Argument #1: The Man in the Arena VS The Critic


    Regarding the relationship between fans and professionals, it seems that people fall into several groups, two of whom view professionals and fans quite differently.

    Ignoring partisans (whose stated views on whether another acts morally are determined by whether they agree with the individual on other issues), purists (who apply the same standards to everyone) and entertainers (who don't really care about the issue either way, but just want to say something witty) there seems to be one central division in outlook whenever conflicts arise regarding the relationship between the man in the arena and the detractor.

    The man in the arena is just a term for the individual involved in a public undertaking, such as a sports figure, politician, or comic book writer or editor.

    The detractor is the guy criticizing the man in the arena. He can vary from an anonymous Monday Morning Quarterback to someone who can be considered a Man in the Arena himself (when his stature and reach is such that he is discussed in a way the anonymous masses of critics are not. See Paul Krugman or Nikki Finke.)

    The division (although it could also be seen as more of a spectrum than anything binary) is whether you'll side with the man in the arena or the detractor, when disputes arise over whether the former acted civilly.

    You could argue that the man in the arena has chosen a high-profile position (be it Governor, Baseball Coach, Hollywood Director or whatever) where he is to be held to a higher standard. His words carry more weight, so he must be careful and sensitive lest anything be construed as an insult. Patience and understanding is an absolute requirement, even when dealing with the worst fans, critics and detractors. The extreme of this is to suggest that the fans can be thin-skinned jerks, while the professionals must walk on eggshells in any interactions.

    Or you could argue that the man in the arena (and I'll note the obvious that it can also be a woman but "man in the arena" sounds better than "person in the arena") has done a lot of work to get to where he is. Analysis of what he does for a living is fine, but it must be civil. And the complainer has to be correct (when it comes to objective details.) It is not the responsibility of the man in the arena to waste his time when the backseat driver is careless with facts. There's nothing wrong with patience, but there's also nothing wrong with humiliating a particularly stupid heckler.

    Of these groups, the one that bugs me the most is the partisans; the ones who will criticize the creators they don't like (and often don't follow) for things that are also done by their favorite writers and artists, often to a greater degree.

    My impression of the Crawl Space has been a bias in favor of the detractors. And that can help create a feedback loop, as more detractors are drawn to the place policy makes things easier for them.

    Argument #2: Should professionals who are rude to fans be penalized?

    The example is often given of people who are fired within the service industry. Personally, I think that mindset would be harmful for the comics industry.

    Whether a comics professional is a good person or a scumbag shouldn't matter to fans. All that should matter is the quality of the material. Any emphasis on other stuff (such as whether they're civil and polite) will result in lesser material, if a talented creator is penalized for something that has nothing to do with the quality of the work (which will on average result in someone less talented getting work) or if a less talented creator is rewarded for something that has nothing to do with the quality of the work.

    I can understand that the bosses will have slightly different priorities. If a talented guy doesn't sell very well, he's not going to get as much work. If a talented guy is difficult to work with, he's likely to be penalized, as this makes it more difficult for others to do their work.

    There is also the argument that their behavior can shape how their work is perceived. I wish I could find the essay, but there was an interesting piece about Jonathan Franzen's latest novel in which the reviewer found it difficult to divorce the things that bugged her about the writer as a person from the world he was presenting in his novel. Although this particular point is very rarely articulated on the Spider-Man message board, which suggests that it's not an issue for most posters.

    So I think fans have an obligation to focus mainly on the quality of the work, and to remind others that emphasis on things that have noting to do with quality is harmful to the industry.

    The guys who run the Crawl Space don't look at it that way. I don't think they've made demands that anyone who is perceived to be rude is fired, although they have essentially tried to shame pros into better behavior.

    Argument #3: Does the presence of professionals detract from discussions of their work?

    The final difference in philosophies is whether the existence of professionals can be problematic, by making honest discussions tougher. This one was probably best articulated by Gail Simone. It's the idea that there should be a safe space to offer honest criticism where you don't have to hold back out of fear of reprisal from someone famous (at least within this community.) There may also be a concern that even if there is no reprisal, the possibility that a professional may pop in will restrict the ability to be brutally honest.

    There's the comparison with bars and barbershops, although it is worth noting that anything posted online isn't part of an unfiltered private conversation. This is stuff we're all putting up for public consumption. That comes with a higher responsibility on certain things. There's more of an obligation to get the facts right (it's often easy to google) and to express yourself in a clear manner.

    It seems to me that the Crawl Space considers it a top priority to allow fans a place to give their opinion without fear of ridicule. But in some cases, ridicule (within reason) is merited. If someone blasts Christos Gage for writing One More Day, they should be called on it.
    Sincerely,
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  14. #2579
    Senior Member Xenon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    I mentioned earlier that there seems to be a conflict of philosophies which ties into perceptions regarding that message board Slott and Wacker have disagreed with.

    I'm copying and pasting from some posts made in this thread and from the similar discussions on how pros behave, so this didn't take me as long to write as it appears.

    Argument #1: The Man in the Arena VS The Critic


    Argument #2: Should professionals who are rude to fans be penalized?

    Argument #3: Does the presence of professionals detract from discussions of their work?
    Shortened to avoid the double! I hope!

    A couple of general observations and then individual responses, because this is the most intelligent I've ever seen this topic.

    1) Correction of objective facts is one thing, but in general I don't think you see many blatant inaccuracies, and when there are, other fans are usually quick to point this out. Most of the time you see the "correction" being something that is heavily subjective, but the responder will correct with statement that it's "FALSE" or "WRONG", when that's not really accurate. You often see this in politics, where one side will be questioned on anything that they can't prove completely, while the other side only has to defend things that are demonstrably false. It isn't wrong to say things that you think or believe but can't prove so long as they cannot be proven false. And you have a situation where different fans have different standards of proof, and that's where these huge arguments come from. If a person is just objectively wrong, like saying Christos Gage wrote OMD, they're either ignored or quickly shot down. You don't get hundred post arguments over objective facts.

    2) Response to Argument 1, The man in the arena is held to a higher standard. That doesn't mean that should be taken to the extreme, but when you put yourself in that position, your words and actions carry more weight than those of the huddled masses. And you should act accordingly. And as for creating a feedback loop, that's certainly true, but whether that loop is based on bias or not is a different question. It's natural for people to congregate with people who hold the same opinion as them. And you can hold that opinion after an objective evaluation on the merits.

    3) Response to Argument 2, no. Ultimately, posting on a message board is a personal life action. It should have no affect on professional life unless it starts to affect a person's professional life. Yelling at some nerds on the internet is almost never going to rise to that level, and only Marvel can make that determination. So I don't agree with those who think someone should be fired for something they said on a message board.

    3) Response to Argument 3, I surprisingly find myself in agreement with Gail Simone on this one. It's hard to have an open conversation about someone or something when you know they're there. This isn't because people are two-faced, but because people are trying to be polite and nice. And because, as mentioned earlier, the professional has more weight to their words, correct or not. You mentioned partisans, and while of course there are those who just will hate on everything someone does because they're who they are, fame brings with it a legion of partisans. It's like trying to have a political debate amongst your peers when the governor walks into the room. Because he's the actual governor, he can deflate 90% of people's arguments by just saying he's the governor. It doesn't matter if he's right or not, his position of authority draws with it a large portion of the huddle masses, because we as humans look for leaders. Just the nature of things. It's why we focus so much on the President despite Congress being far more responsible for things the government does.

    Of course, with that said, even if I don't appreciate all of the comments by Mr. Slott and especially by Mr. Wacker and think they take to criticism about as well as a cat takes to water, it is neat that they interact with fans on such a regular basis. I may not appreciate all of that interaction, but there are plenty of people who do, and there are definitely examples of both Mr. Slott and Mr. Wacker going out of their way to make someone else's day on this board. And it's worth noting that there are other boards you can discuss these things if you feel like avoiding them (unless they go trolling the boards. So you cna also make the argument that no one's perfect and sometimes you have to accept the bad with the good. Obviously I'd prefer it if we just got the good and we could have nice reasonable disagreements about things, but eh, it is what it is.
    When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up.-C.S.Lewis

  15. #2580
    Loose mongoose Venomous Mask's Avatar
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