Superman becomes a Z-Fighter

[Gram]

Still plenty of time for him to do a lobotomy.

Well, Buu and Cell have powerful regeneration so it would take more than that.

If Kal's heat vision is powerful and precise enough he can just fry their remains so they don't come back. Otherwise, he can drag them into the sun.

[Max Sterling]

Well, Buu and Cell have powerful regeneration so it would take more than that.

If Kal's heat vision is powerful and precise enough he can just fry their remains so they don't come back. Otherwise, he can drag them into the sun.

Well cell would not be the same, plus all he would need to do is vaporize his base cell right?


And buu, if he ever got out, all he would need is a sun toss...

[Hazard]

*sigh*

We. Don't. See. That.

Please, enlighten me as to which point Kal started slowing down and when he stated as such. You must surely have the scans?

Anyway, as I said before comparing a guy in a supersonic air plane to a person flying at hundreds of time FTL under their own power is silly. Those kinds of speed would make travel impossible if you don't have the superhuman processing power to know what is even going on and to get a clear image of things. Maybe in deep space it's possible but how could they even know where they're going if they don't? They would just fly aimlessly in space. If you have an explanation for that please share.

Either way, it's a moot point. Since we see Kal abruptly stop a couple meters away from Red Hood and facing down the barrel of his gun. That would mean...

A) that he saw the Red Hood, proving that such speeds are not too much for his eyes to handle

B) that he can quickly stop himself and react to his own speed to some extent

Dude, are you going to keep going on about this? It's been 10 pages already.

At this point you're just metaphorically banging your head against the wall.

Call a mod. Get a ruling if you want to change stuff. At this point it is just the same as any other flight feat.

[Cody]

New 52 got em fairly young:




I had forgotten about that rabbit guy...

http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr...vxyyo1_500.jpg

Hmmm... SuperCarrot...

Oh so he was even weaker than Goku and even Krillin was at that age? Yea he is screwed when facing against King piccolo or say Roshi in the tourny. Granted, Ki training can help him out. As would his grandpa but still.

Still plenty of time for him to do a lobotomy.

It isn't. Unless his heat vision is ftl, which I doubt. Hell it probably doesn't even come near the speed of light.

[Nik Hasta]

We see Kal stop though, and see when he stops.

Just a few meters from Red Hood. How could he have done that without insane reactions/reflexes?

As I said before, we see that scene from Red Hood's perspective. Superman could have been going anywhere from FTL to like... mach 2 and it would have looked exactly the same to him since the human brain can't process information any faster.

It's a travel feat, we have rules on this sort of thing. It's not a strong enough feat to grant Superman FTL reflexes. Pre Nu52 Superman had a bunch of feats just like this, flying from Saturn to Earth in seconds, flying from Earth to Jupiter in seconds, flying from Earth to vicinity of Venus in seconds - the list goes on and on and none of these were the feats that allowed him to be qualified for FTL reflexes.

[Gram]

As I said before, we see that scene from Red Hood's perspective. Superman could have been going anywhere from FTL to like... mach 2 and it would have looked exactly the same to him since the human brain can't process information any faster.

Here's the thing. We don't see it from Kal's perspective. We don't see it from the Red Hood's, we see it from a third person narrative and to us Kal arrived in the time it took Red Hood to finish that small conversation with his acquaintances after they teleported to Earth. Also, Kal's not human and it has been proven that he can process things at ridiculous speeds with the medical text feat. Have you ever flown at hundreds of times FTL under your own power? Do you know how it would be like? Do you have something in real life to actually compare it to? No, no one has even traveled at FTL speed in real life.

If you mean that Kal was slower because the Red Hood didn't have the reflexes or reactions to see someone move at that sort of speed then it's still just speculative. You're assuming that the entire scene is being shown through Red Hood's eyes.

It's a travel feat, we have rules on this sort of thing. It's not a strong enough feat to grant Superman FTL reflexes. Pre Nu52 Superman had a bunch of feats just like this, flying from Saturn to Earth in seconds, flying from Earth to Jupiter in seconds, flying from Earth to vicinity of Venus in seconds - the list goes on and on and none of these were the feats that allowed him to be qualified for FTL reflexes.

If Superman did it in such a short period of time he should have had some measure of superhuman reflexes or perception otherwise Superman would have just crashed or never reached his destination period. You're grossly overestimating human reaction speed.

That should have been FTL hands down.

Okay, let me give you a better description. The limit of human reaction time is around 0.2 to 0.3 seconds, depending on the person. If you traveled at relativistic speeds, light-speed or FTL, under your own power, in this case with whatever lets Kal fly; anti-gravitons, telekinesis, magic, whatever. That would be far from enough to even know where you are going, what's happening, or control your flight. He would have been flying blind. You would at least need a microsecond (a millionth of a second) reactions to nanosecond (a billionth of a second) reactions. In the Pluto to Earth case, Kal flew at least 260 times the speed of light. He was crossing four light-seconds per second. A single light-second is 299,792.458 kilometers. He would have at least needed nanosecond reactions or he would have crashed into Red Hood going from what we saw.

Probably higher.

[Cody]

Or he had a burst of speed and when he was getting into proximity of the planet he started to slow himself down. Using his super hearing he figured out where Jason and co was and flew towards them.

He has been in space before, he knows where earth is. And he can hear where they are. All it takes is him to accelerate to an intense speed, even for a few seconds, then start to slow himself down. At the rate he is going he would still be going at an intense speed and be able to pinpoint to where they are. But he would still have to slow down to get to their exact spot.

ESPECIALLY if he has super hearing. At going at such intense speeds, towards a planet that hosts over 4 billion people on it, he would still need to concentrate and pinpoint as to where jason and co are currently. He can not do that if he is moving at such a fast speed. He would need to begin to slow down and pinpoint where they are and maneuver towards them.

All we see is him hovering there. We cannot assume, from that alone, that he suddenly put on the brakes after traveling from the speed he was going at. Him hovering there, alone, is not enough to justify super reflexes.

If he truly has as intense reflexes as you claim he should have more incidents of performing said feat. To which it should not be too difficult for you to find scans of it.

[Gram]

Or he had a burst of speed and when he was getting into proximity of the planet he started to slow himself down. Using his super hearing he figured out where Jason and co was and flew towards them.

He has been in space before, he knows where earth is. And he can hear where they are. All it takes is him to accelerate to an intense speed, even for a few seconds, then start to slow himself down. At the rate he is going he would still be going at an intense speed and be able to pinpoint to where they are. But he would still have to slow down to get to their exact spot.

ESPECIALLY if he has super hearing. At going at such intense speeds, towards a planet that hosts over 4 billion people on it, he would still need to concentrate and pinpoint as to where jason and co are currently. He can not do that if he is moving at such a fast speed. He would need to begin to slow down and pinpoint where they are and maneuver towards them.

All we see is him hovering there. We cannot assume, from that alone, that he suddenly put on the brakes after traveling from the speed he was going at. Him hovering there, alone, is not enough to justify super reflexes.

You're completely missing the point, and making unsubstantiated claims again. Where in the scans do we see this?

Can you prove it with in-story statements or something? Anything? If not, we should take it at face value. It's left ambiguous how he located them but it was probably through one of his super-senses. However, all we see is Kal arriving immediately so he must have located them instantly without a need to look or focus in on them.

If he truly has as intense reflexes as you claim he should have more incidents of performing said feat. To which it should not be too difficult for you to find scans of it.

I already did, several times.

Kal also has some impressive processing and learning speed. He reads every medical text ever published, and goes through "ten years of medical training in five minutes."

http://i.imgur.com/lRZr4.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/THpOB.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/BoKyo.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Der44.jpg

I found a nice scan of him tagging the Flash in another issue as well.

http://i.imgur.com/yjuGS.jpg

All we see is him hovering there. We cannot assume, from that alone, that he suddenly put on the brakes after traveling from the speed he was going at. Him hovering there, alone, is not enough to justify super reflexes.

Yes, we can.

Because that's exactly what it looks like and you're misinterpreting it.

[Cody]

You're completely missing the point, and making unsubstantiated claims again. Where in the scans do we see this?

Can you prove it with in-story statements or something? Anything? If not, we should take it at face value. It's left ambiguous how he located them but it was probably through one of his super-senses. However, all we see is Kal arriving immediately so he must have located them instantly without a need to look or focus in on them.



I already did, several times.







Yes, we can.

Because that's exactly what it looks like and you're misinterpreting it.

Except him reading the medical texts has been refuted. It is not the same as combat speed.
And of course

See, that's my point. There are way too many variables from this point on. Moves? Yeah he picks that. Physical conditioning? Ki ability? That's were things get murky. For all we know Superman might suck when it comes to using ki or his body won't be able to raise its natural ability to the meta human levels of early Goku through just training.

Unless we are granting his potential in all of these is the same as Goku in which it is little different than having and Goku Superman hybrid.



He only has the library feat so far for reflex feats right? Nah, that ain't doing it. It is probably around light speed or so, but Buu ain't far from that so transmutation and cheap regen wins the day for him.

And him tagging the Flash isn't an FTL feat because the flash wasn't moving at FTL speeds.

And all that we see him doing is flying there. YOU are blemishing it by saying he suddenly stopped right there. Him hovering there is not substantial proof. Again provide better sources. You assume he has super reflex's based on what? Him floating there? THAT'S speculation. If that alone is proof of him moving ftl then so can any flyer.

All we know for sure is that it takes him going faster than light to get there. Not that he suddenly stopped from moving at such speeds. It is a good speed feat scan. Not a good reflex scan.

[The Drunkard Kid]

This is exactly why this feat has an asterix: we don't see HOW Clark located them and how he stopped. What that scan shows conclusively is that he can travel interstellar distances at ludicrously FTL speeds (if it is consistent with subsequent portrayals) and is able to locate them in the span of a short conversation.

Personally, I'd assumed that he followed the signal of their teleporter, but there is no actual evidence to support the claim. Did it ever explain how they managed to activate a teleport before Clark could stop them? Or did he just let them because it didn't matter?

Also, that bull wrestling feat is lower than the stuff that Goku and Kuririn were pulling off before even breaking past the realm of "normal" DB human levels, so he would not want to go near Piccolo unless he's a Goku class martial arts genius with that level of talent as well.

[Gram]

Except him reading the medical texts has been refuted. It is not the same as combat speed.

When and why?

He only has the library feat so far for reflex feats right? Nah, that ain't doing it. It is probably around light speed or so, but Buu ain't far from that so transmutation and cheap regen wins the day for him.

Nonsense.

How did you even quantify that? Did you just pull a random number out or something? If you're going to label that feat as light-speed or FTL you need to quantify it first. The amount of books Kal read, the amount of pages he had to turn altogether, et cetera. That's a baseless assumption. The feat in question is impressive and certainly beyond the capabilities of anyone in DBZ, since no one in DBZ has ever done anything like that. But that's all we know until someone quantifies it.

And him tagging the Flash isn't an FTL feat because the flash wasn't moving at FTL speeds.

I'll be honest, unlike you. I'm not sure how fast the Flash is currently as of Nu52.

This is exactly why this feat has an asterix: we don't see HOW Clark located them and how he stopped. What that scan shows conclusively is that he can travel interstellar distances at ludicrously FTL speeds (if it is consistent with subsequent portrayals) and is able to locate them in the span of a short conversation.

We do. We see Kal stop a meter or so away from Red Hood. He was really close when he stopped, and since there are no scenes that contradict that in that issue we must take it at face value. It's that simple.

[Cody]

When and why?



Nonsense.

How did you even quantify that? Did you just pull a random number out or something? If you're going to label that feat as light-speed or FTL you need to quantify it first. The amount of books Kal read, the amount pages he had to turn altogether, et cetera. That's a baseless assumption. It's impressive and certainly beyond the capabilities of anyone in DBZ, since no in DBZ has ever done anything like that. But that's all we know until someone quantifies it.



I'll be honest, unlike you. I'm not sure how fast the Flash is currently as of Nu52.

Ah. So now you are becoming hostile I see by discrediting me and calling me dishonest(those who disagree with you are dishonest eh) this should end well then >_>. I was enjoying how civil this debate was too .

Reading books is one thing. Moving your entire body in a fight is another. And plus, he read all the medical texts in the library. I highly doubt that it contains every text book that was ever created on medicine. Especially when more than half of the medical texts created are downright useless and when most of them say around the same thing. Despite what he said, he only read the books that are in the medical section. It is a good feat. But it only puts it on light speed reaction time. Let us not make it more than what it is. And when it comes to reflex's mid to high end dbz fighters are around that level.

You know what a baseless assumption is? Saying someone has ftl reflex's when they are seen hovering in mid-air. Now if he had ftl reflex's he would show it off quite often yes? So aside from the medical reading and him hovering in mid-air. What else you got?

We do. We see Kal stop a meter or so away from Red Hood. He was really close when he stopped, and since there are no scenes that contradict that in that issue we must take it at face value. It's that simple.

Cept we don't see him stop, we see him hovering there.

[Gram]

Ah. So now you are becoming hostile I see by discrediting me and calling me dishonest(those who disagree with you are dishonest eh) this should end well then >_>. I was enjoying this civil debate too .

*sigh*

I'm simply annoyed by the fact that you're not understanding what I'm trying to say.

Reading books is one thing. Moving your entire body in a fight is another. And plus, he read all the medical texts in the library. I highly doubt that it contains every text book that was ever created on medicine. Especially when more than half of the medical texts created are downright useless and when most of them say around the same thing. Despite what he said, he only read the books that are in the medical section. It is a good feat. But it only puts it on light speed reaction time. Let us not make it more than what it is. And when it comes to reflex's mid to high end dbz fighters are around that level.

I was talking to Hazard. Note how I quoted him.

You know what a baseless assumption is? Saying someone has ftl reflex's when they are seen hovering in mid-air. Now if he had ftl reflex's he would show it off quite often yes? So aside from the medical reading and him hovering in mid-air. What else you got?

Please, look at the rest of the feat. Here it is:

Anyway, here is the aforementioned Pluto to Earth feat. It seems to have happened in around a minute.

http://i.imgur.com/gUPvn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ylmAn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZAA8Y.jpg

There is more to it than just that. You can see that Kal's hair "fwooshed" forward at the end. A sign that he stopped abruptly. You can even see it in his body language.

[Cody]

*sigh*

I'm simply annoyed by the fact that you're not understanding what I'm trying to say.



I was talking to Hazard. Note how I quoted him.



Please, look at the rest of the feat. Here it is:



There is more to it than just that. You can see his hair "fwoosh" forward at the end. A sign that he stopped abruptly.

I understand what you are saying, I disagree with it. This IS a debating part of the forums mate.

And I know you were quoting it. I was just replying to it as well.

And we see his hair moving yes. But that could be the wind in the area, him stopping after slowing down, or with him hovering there is wind resistance thus it would move his clothes and hair around.

There has to be more scans of him performing super reflex's right? Aside from what you already posted(since they are debatable) if there are truly instances of him performing ftl super reflex's please. Post them. Otherwise get ready for 10 more pages of all of us arguing this. If you can shorten the war by 5 years and save millions of lives in the process do it.

[Gram]

I understand what you are saying, I disagree with it. This IS a debating part of the forums mate.

And I know you were quoting it. I was just replying to it as well.

And we see his hair moving yes. But that could be the wind in the area, him stopping after slowing down, or with him hovering there is wind resistance thus it would move his clothes and hair around.

There has to be more scans of him performing super reflex's right? Aside from what you already posted(since they are debatable) if there are truly instances of him performing ftl super reflex's please. Post them. Otherwise get ready for 10 more pages of all of us arguing this. If you can shorten the war by 5 years and save millions of lives in the process do it.

Those feats by themselves should be enough to prove it but if you want more I'll get them.

Also, they're not debatable. They are what they are and you're just being nit-picky. If I wanted to I could say DBZ high-tiers are only sub-relativistic going by their feats; not even relativistic let alone light-speed. However, I'm not and giving you the benefit of the doubt. I would expect the same curtsy from you but if you continue with this I will also argue that against you as well. It's only fair.

Anyway, here's another feat.

H'el grabbing Superboy from across the world in an instant. Superman could keep up him with in speed.

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/a...n-Zone-008.jpg
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/a...n-Zone-009.jpg
http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/a...n-Zone-011.jpg