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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    It's worth reflecting that cultural, social and economic machine that powers our lives is one that's responsible for mass rape, genocide, poverty etc. and it's done such a bang up job that even in the more developed parts of the world, you have escalating levels of depression and poverty. The majority of those experiencing poverty are women who are still treated really badly and our society is an incredibly sex-negative one that shames people for their sex, sexuality and body.
    And you - as a man - are the reason why this happens, Flaneur!
    All the failings of our civilization and the suffering of women are your fault, Flaneur!
    ^_^
    No, I think we know well enough that our civilization sucks beyond words.
    But it´s like that saying about Democracy, you know:
    "democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried".
    Yes, it sucks beyond words but we work together every day to try to make it less sucky than the day before.
    I like to believe that for every creep out there throwing acid at little girls for going to school, there are many guys out there who would go "Women and children first" without a thought.


    I just think it's a bit awkies to push any narrative that our society has any cred in teaching anyone else about love and co-existence or that having been raped is a reason we should ignore those women.
    Did I say anything about ignoring them?
    The world at large should feel compassion toward what they experienced and provide them with all the love, care and psychological help they clearly need, being that they are still chained to a deep hatred toward all men 3,000 years after the fact.

    But would you have someone who hates your gender as a whole with the fire of a thousand exploding suns preaching you about love and sexuality and peacefull coexistence between the sexes?
    Last edited by Eliseu Gouveia; 12-26-2012 at 08:04 AM.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    He had an idea he enforced through the comic.
    As History has taught us time and again, there IS such a thing as a "bad idea".

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    As History has taught us time and again, there IS such a thing as a "bad idea".
    It was an idea that would never get tested in reality, so by that he was safe to imagine the utopia.

  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    It was an idea that would never get tested in reality, so by that he was safe to imagine the utopia.
    And now we are safe to point out the failings of that idea.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    And now we are safe to point out the failings of that idea.
    Should we start to point out the pro/cons of democracy vs. communism while we are here?

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    Should we start to point out the pro/cons of democracy vs. communism while we are here?
    Nah, I think you should make a specific thread for that.

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    And you - as a man - are the reason why this happens, Flaneur!
    All the failings of our civilization and the suffering of women are your fault, Flaneur!
    ^_^
    No, I think we know well enough that our civilization sucks beyond words.
    But it´s like that saying about Democracy, you know:
    "democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried".
    Yes, it sucks beyond words but we work together every day to try to make it less sucky than the day before.
    I like to believe that for every creep out there throwing acid at little girls for going to school, there are many guys out there who would go "Women and children first" without a thought.
    Ok, to be clear, we are agreed that there is much suck-itude in our civilization, correct?

    Let's say, that while Steve is sleeping in the sick bay, the Amazons borrow his iphone (in hopes of running up the bill), and do a quick google search to learn more about Steve's world - what would they find in the news? Would there even be as many stories of harmony and charity as there are murder and other crimes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    But would you have someone who hates your gender as a whole with the fire of a thousand exploding suns preaching you about love and sexuality and peacefull coexistence between the sexes?
    I really don't see why not (for one, you do so love to over-exaggerate their hatred), as I'm not the biggest fan of tossing out any and all messages just because the messenger is flawed. If a smoker tells me "Don't smoke, it causes cancer," s/he isn't wrong just because s/he loves to smoke, right?

    The Amazons have flaws. At times, they (or is it the writers?) over-generalize, distorting facts, fostering division, etc. But, let's say the Amazons are to say, "Men suck - they're far too violent." The message is flawed in that not every single man is far too violent. On the other hand, are they completely wrong? Or, sometimes, is there merit to be found even in over-generalizations?
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by americanwonder View Post
    Ok, to be clear, we are agreed that there is much suck-itude in our civilization, correct?

    Let's say, that while Steve is sleeping in the sick bay, the Amazons borrow his iphone (in hopes of running up the bill), and do a quick google search to learn more about Steve's world - what would they find in the news? Would there even be as many stories of harmony and charity as there are murder and other crimes?
    Depends on what news channel they tune in. ^_^

    I really don't see why not (for one, you do so love to over-exaggerate their hatred), as I'm not the biggest fan of tossing out any and all messages just because the messenger is flawed. If a smoker tells me "Don't smoke, it causes cancer," s/he isn't wrong just because s/he loves to smoke, right?

    The Amazons have flaws. At times, they (or is it the writers?) over-generalize, distorting facts, fostering division, etc. But, let's say the Amazons are to say, "Men suck - they're far too violent." The message is flawed in that not every single man is far too violent. On the other hand, are they completely wrong? Or, sometimes, is there merit to be found even in over-generalizations?
    Pot, meet kettle.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    As History has taught us time and again, there IS such a thing as a "bad idea".
    I'm reading this while sitting in my Edsel, drinking New Coke, wearing my M.C. Hammer Parachute pants.
    "Mistah Joker, he dead."

  10. #100
    Power Corrupts Jabare's Avatar
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    hasn't wonder woman been a lesbian for the past few decades. I mean prior to Azzarello's run if your an Amazon your either lesbian or celibate.


  11. #101
    Veteran Member Flâneur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    And you - as a man - are the reason why this happens, Flaneur!
    All the failings of our civilization and the suffering of women are your fault, Flaneur!
    ^_^
    Men, by dint of the fact that they have controlled the state in all projects of genocide, war, abuse etc. and that social discourses are currently woven around hetero-patriarchal norms can, in some senses, collectively be said to be at fault for these things happening or at least experiencing a massive amount of privilege out of it. Even if you're a nice guy, you still profit heaps from structural sexism hence the phrase 'check your privilege' etc.

    No, I think we know well enough that our civilization sucks beyond words.
    But it´s like that saying about Democracy, you know:
    "democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried".
    Yes, it sucks beyond words but we work together every day to try to make it less sucky than the day before.
    Well, I personally don't believe don't believe that people actually work to make it less sucky but more try to make it fit their agenda. The system in the United States is not one that I'd legit call a democracy, for one, despite people always running around about freeeedddoooom (from medicare) for the people.
    I like to believe that for every creep out there throwing acid at little girls for going to school, there are many guys out there who would go "Women and children first" without a thought.
    And for every Amazon throwing bees at little boys for going to school, I'm sure there are also those who come to our world with the explicit objective of sharing peace, truth and love or die trying.

    Did I say anything about ignoring them?
    The world at large should feel compassion toward what they experienced and provide them with all the love, care and psychological help they clearly need, being that they are still chained to a deep hatred toward all men 3,000 years after the fact.

    But would you have someone who hates your gender as a whole with the fire of a thousand exploding suns preaching you about love and sexuality and peacefull coexistence between the sexes?
    That does sound like ignoring their voice.
    "All things are precipitated by the nature of existence. Nothing, therefore, is unnatural be it bee-hive or termite mound or all our shining, poisoned cities." - Promethea #31

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    Men, by dint of the fact that they have controlled the state in all projects of genocide, war, abuse etc. and that social discourses are currently woven around hetero-patriarchal norms can, in some senses, collectively be said to be at fault for these things happening or at least experiencing a massive amount of privilege out of it. Even if you're a nice guy, you still profit heaps from structural sexism hence the phrase 'check your privilege' etc.
    I had no idea til this very second that you were female.
    So, you are not at fault for ALL of society's failings after all.
    Terribly sorry.
    Good for you.
    I know I am, being that I´m a a guy and all.
    War in Syria? Journalists murdered in Russia? Women forced to wear burkhas in Afghanistan?
    All me.


    Well, I personally don't believe don't believe that people actually work to make it less sucky but more try to make it fit their agenda. The system in the United States is not one that I'd legit call a democracy, for one, despite people always running around about freeeedddoooom (from medicare) for the people.
    I would like to believe living in a better world is something on most people's agendas, even if "better" has different meanings for different people.

    And for every Amazon throwing bees at little boys for going to school, I'm sure there are also those who come to our world with the explicit objective of sharing peace, truth and love or die trying.
    Getouttatown! ^_^

    That does sound like ignoring their voice.
    Providing professional help to someone who's clearly in distress 3,000 years after the fact? Sounds pretty humanitarian to me.

    OTOH, drinking from all the bile and the hatred they accumulated over three (THREE!) milennia?
    There´s a whole subgenre of horror movies that start just like that.

  13. #103
    Veteran Member Flâneur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliseu Gouveia View Post
    I had no idea til this very second that you were female.
    So, you are not at fault for ALL of society's failings after all.
    Terribly sorry.
    Good for you.
    I know I am, being that I´m a a guy and all.
    War in Syria? Journalists murdered in Russia? Women forced to wear burkhas in Afghanistan?
    All me.
    I'm not sure where you're struggling to delineate between the patriarchal state and you as an individual man who benefits from it?

    And no, I'm not female.

    I would like to believe living in a better world is something on most people's agendas, even if "better" has different meanings for different people.
    I think it's worth asking how much the value of a better world is if you're going to include everyone's agendas ... a lot of which are very not nice.

    Providing professional help to someone who's clearly in distress 3,000 years after the fact? Sounds pretty humanitarian to me.

    OTOH, drinking from all the bile and the hatred they accumulated over three (THREE!) milennia?
    There´s a whole subgenre of horror movies that start just like that.
    I dunno, you're pretty much silencing them by framing everything in terms of them being psychotic, in distress and incapable of offering anything as opposed to well, us.
    "All things are precipitated by the nature of existence. Nothing, therefore, is unnatural be it bee-hive or termite mound or all our shining, poisoned cities." - Promethea #31

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flâneur View Post
    I'm not sure where you're struggling to delineate between the patriarchal state and you as an individual man who benefits from it?
    LOL
    "Benefits".
    Like what, harrass me and utter racial insults when I walk holding hands with a white girl on the street?
    Or giving me a 10 when I score a 14?
    Maybe falling head over heels over my art and then taking it back when they realise that black hands crafted it?
    Perhaps trying to get my services dismissed because it´s unconfortable with seeing my black face at meetings every wednesday at 15:00?
    Tell me more about my "benefits".

    And no, I'm not female.
    SO, you ARE responsible for Pearl Harbour and 911!
    How could you, Flaneur?

    I think it's worth asking how much the value of a better world is if you're going to include everyone's agendas ... a lot of which are very not nice.
    Do you believe you should be condemned for the sins of others?
    I choose to believe that the good outweights the bad.
    That for every taliban murdering people for singing there are thousands of brave firemen charging into burning buildings to rescue inocent people in danger.
    You and your amazons believe the opposite?
    Good for you.

    I dunno, you're pretty much silencing them by framing everything in terms of them being psychotic, in distress and incapable of offering anything as opposed to well, us.
    We´re gonna be here all week....
    They HAVE things to offer.
    But on the subject of love, sexuality and peaceful coexistence between the sexes, they should do the hearing and the learning first, before they start preaching to others.
    This is a no-brainer, really.
    How are they gonna preach to mankind how men and women should coexist when they haven´t seen a man in 3,000 (THREE! THOUSAND!) years?
    Or you gonna trust bronze age morality bestowed upon by a goddess who thinks killing babies is okay and another who loves turning girls into monsters when they are raped or they beat her at a match?
    Last edited by Eliseu Gouveia; 12-26-2012 at 07:34 PM.

  15. #105

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    Flaneur - Thank you for your posts. Very well thought-out. I enjoyed and appreciate them.
    (apologies for the spelling, I don't know how to do the '^' above the A in your name.)

    Zeu - I'm sorry to hear about your experiences with racism. I don't really have the words to express my sympathy.

    But the point Flaneur raised was sexism, and many women, across the globe, experience sexism in somewhat similar ways that racism has affected your life. Access to education, pay and treatment at work, what they can and can't wear, where they can go or do they need to have a man with them at all times in public, inheritance laws and customs, domestice violence, even health care. Rucka once mentioned that even something as simple as accepting an open drink at a college party is a very different experience for men and women in the US. We it comes to the sexes, the power balance (economic, political, social) greatly favors men, and we have it better in most parts of the world.

    "Do you believe you should be condemned for the sins of others?"

    No, I don't. Like you, I do believe there are countless good men doing good out there. And that shouldn't be forgotten.

    However, I don't think your question fully covers the issue. For starters, when we look at global problems, as Flaneur pointed out, men have more than just 50% of the power and influence. Some use it well (see the recent, and very large, charitable donation by Zuckerberg, for instance); some use it poorly (see the news reports of hundreds from Egypt of sexual assaults on women in public, with the police doing next to nothing about it, for one example). And when we look at the ugliest #### humans do to each other, the wars, murders, rapes, etc. - 50% of that is not committed by women. Again, men have the lion's share.

    So, while I do not believe in condemning the individual for the acts of others, I'm also not for hiding the facts that men are directly (and indirectly) responsible for most of the 'suck' in this world. That's not to say we all suck; but the suck that's out there is mostly done by us. I don't think that reality should be ignored. I also don't believe we get to simply say, "well, I didn't do it." I think all of us should ask ourselves, "well, what did I do to stop it?"

    Here, too, I agree with Flaneur in that, it feels to me like your statements want to dismiss and silence the Amazons. It seems to me, you don't want to hear anything they might have to say about men, in part, because they are imperfect and their worldview is imperfect.

    For me, I don't see them as marriage and family therapists, so I don't really see why you're limiting the scope of their message of love and peaceful coexistence to that of interpersonal relationships between the sexes. To me, it's much bigger than that, and simpler as well - it's just about people getting along, finding something better than violence. Sure, the Amazons still have much to learn and areas to grow. But the fact that they went 3,000 years without attacking other societies, without murdering their own, without rape, etc, (not to mention protecting all of mankind from the monsters behind the wall* without ever hearing a word of thanks) is far more important to their message than recently seeing a man, imo.

    * Yes, I know, you want to dismiss this too because the Spartans could stop warring with Athens long enough to war with someone else. Sorry, but I feel you over-generalize and dismiss the Amazons in much the same way you say the Amazons (generally written by men, hmm ) over-generalize and dismiss men.

    ========
    eta (as if my posts needed more words, right?) - When I think of the Amazon's having a message of 'love,' I tend to think of things like a phrase from the Bible describing charity as "a more excellent way." I think of their message being broader than the typical men v. women stuff (that's often not written very well), and just that of people with people. If I were in charge, I'd have it portrayed in a more universal fashion to deal not just with sexism, but also racism, treatment of LGBT, etc.
    Last edited by americanwonder; 12-26-2012 at 10:55 PM.
    "... Act, that each tomorrow find us farther than today."
    - Longfellow

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