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  1. #466

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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Granted, sometimes when a story showing two fictional characters in a secret romance doesn't always portend that something bad will happen because it was kept secret. I'm just saying the way the current relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman has been set up, them keeping their romance a secret is going to lead to problems. Also, in the case of Clark and Lois, they didn't exactly keep their relationship a secret; the only thing their friends and colleagues weren't aware of was that Clark was also Superman.


    Except there's already been a hint that Superman and Wonder Woman getting together IS a bad thing. Remember what happened in the Justice League International Annual? It's heavily implied that, based on Booster Gold vanishing from the timestream, that the seed for Earth's future being doomed started once Superman and Wonder Woman kissed. Also, as for the world putting up with the League, remember why Steve Trevor was around in the first place--he was the liaison officer who was convincing his superiors that the Justice League are the good guys. He was their check and balance, so to speak. And why do you think there's going to be a Justice League of America being formed with Steve Trevor? Because the implication is that US government wants their own sanctioned Justice League they can monitor and control, especially one that can check an independent group like the Justice League.



    You have to look in context, though. As the New 52 has established, people we're afraid and distrustful of superheroes when they first arrived on the scene. It was when the Justice League beat back Darkseid and his invasion that the public started to regard them as genuine heroes. That being said, we've been told many, many times that there are people--particularly the governments of the world--who still are worried about the superhuman presence on Earth. Superman himself is still regarded with suspicion, distrust and fear as much has he is adulation. Batman himself put up Brother Eye as means of monitoring them. And this is still going on even after 5 years (which you would think, in the case of the Justice League, they would've come to trust one another by now). In such a backdrop, knowledge of Superman and Wonder Woman--the two most powerful beings on the planet--being romantically involved would cause various people to lose their collective s*** and put an even bigger bullseye on the Justice League as a result. What's more, Superman and Wonder Woman being in a relationship could be seen as an imbalance of power within the Justice League as they essentially become alliance. Not to mention that, based on the promos for the upcoming Trinity War, we know that Justice League is going to fracture with Superman on one side and Batman on the other. And in that scenario, you have both Superman and Wonder Woman, the two most powerful members of the League, on the same side.
    Most of your arguments are based on speculation. Right now Arthur is the HUGE worry.Torn between two worlds.

    Superman himself, single or hooked up with WW, will always be a thorn in the side of Lex and many other people. Keeping him away from her will never change that. Some will revere and some will fear.

    I think I'd like to wait and see what Grant does in Action and see if Superman actually died and if that as well as the Martian Manhunter incident did not contribute to making that five years difficult. It's clear it caused trust issues.

    Once again people nit picking about a five year time line. Well again let me ask why did Clark not open up to his best friend Lois? I don't get it. Does he think her helpless? Incapable of coping with the truth? Could he not trust her? To me that secret is worse. Because Diana was his colleague but with Steve. She was most likely off limits and if you know a colleague is seeing someone else you'd try and respect that and not get too close. We don't even know when Diana left and went to London for that matter.

    I expect there will be backstories to try to fill some of that stuff but still doesn't make sense to me why you think they need to broadcast it to the world. It is no one's business and they know what the media does. See what happened to Steve. Nothing they are doing is any different to two people who happen to be heroes and want to keep their personal lives their own.

    It's their perogative to do that until they feel they want to share it with people they can trust not to blab to the media or use their story or judge them. While Lois does not know Clark is Superman, it is not her business really. Batman does not tell Clark what he gets up to with Catwoman I bet. Not that kind of relationship.
    Last edited by kylesgirl; 01-07-2013 at 01:19 PM.

  2. #467

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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Most of your arguments are based speculation. Right now Arthur is the HUGE worry.Torn between two worlds.
    Yes, at the moment, Aquaman's divided loyalties is the big concern. I just don't think it's too much of a leap to suggest that the discover of Superman and Wonder Woman's romance by the public at large will be another.

    Superman himself single or hooked up with WW will always be a thorn in the side of Lex and many other people. Keeping him away from her will never change that. Some will revere and some will fear.
    Granted, but what I think could happen is that the discovery of Superman and Wonder Woman being romantically involved will be used by those who distrust superhumans--especially Lex Luthor--to persuade others to their line of thinking by essentially saying, "See, now you have the two most powerful beings on Earth are potentially mating. What's it going to take for you people to realize that these so-called "superheroes" are a threat to the survival of the human race?"

    I think I'd like to wait and see what Grant does in Action and see if Superman actually died and if that as well as the Martian Manhunter incident did not contribute to making that five years difficult.

    Once again people nit picking about a five year time line. Well again let me ask why did Clark not open up to his best friend Lois? I don't get it. Does he think her helpless? Incapable of coping with the truth? Could he not trust her? To me that secret is worse. Because Diana was his colleague but with Steve. She was most likely off limits and if you know a colleague is seeing someone else you'd try and respect that and not get too close. We don't even know when Diana left and went to London for that matter.
    Which are all legitimate questions which, IMO, illustrates one of the big problems the "5 year timeline" has. Because we have no idea what's still canon and what isn't, and therefore do not really have a clear understanding of where the various DC heroes in the New 52 are coming from. We've only seen their beginnings as heroes but we have all sorts of untold backstory and gaps that need to be filled in, which of course forces DC to keep going backwards.

    I expect there will be backstories to try to fill some of that stuff but still doesn't make sense to me why you think they need to broadcast it to the world. It is no one's business and they know what the media does. See what happened to Steve. Nothing they are doing is any different to two people who happen to be heroes and want to keep their personal lives their own.

    It's their perogative to do that until they feel they want to share it with people they cab trust not to blab to the media or use their story. While Lois does not know Clark is Superman, it is not her business really.
    I'm not saying that Superman and Wonder Woman should "broadcast to the world" that they're a couple. I'm just saying that, in terms of the overall story, them choosing to keep their relationship a secret, probably for the best of intentions, is likely going to backfire--especially since the world doesn't view superheroes the same way as they do the average person for obvious reasons. Moreover, some members of the Justice League would see this as sign that Superman and Wonder Woman don't really trust their own teammates enough if they're willing to keep them out of the loop over something which could potentially affect every single one of them. Granted, they would say "our private lives are really nobody's business" but it would also be pointed out to them that, considering what they are both capable of in terms of their powers, they don't exactly have that kind of luxury.
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  3. #468

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    Quote Originally Posted by stillanerd View Post
    Granted, they would say "our private lives are really nobody's business" but it would also be pointed out to them that, considering what they are both capable of in terms of their powers, they don't exactly have that kind of luxury.
    People thinking the worse is inevitable. But this insistence that they would actually turn evil in a future scenario etc to me is lame and lazy.

    Look at what Superman can do alone. He should not have any kind of luxury and no one should give him the benefit of the doubt that he is well intentioned, if that is the line you want to take. This again is a judgement and in a way you actually condemning Wonder Woman as a person. You see her as the catalyst for being him turning evil. You seem to think Superman , the most powerful hero, who can bench press a planet, time travel , who has enemies that can attack at anytime in the time line, and so forth will not turn evil if he stays with a human..ie Lois. You do know he is going to save the whole world from ending or something in Action and funnily enough Diana has nothing to do with this? It is just got to do with who he is and the hatred the little man has for him? So tell me. You really think trying to stick this on WW makes sense?

    You are inferring he'll pose no dangers/risks once he hooks up with Lois. Never mind the stuff he did in the past. Sacrifice, where he was rampaging over the thought of Lois hurt etc, and having Wonder Woman having to deal with the mess and her getting the sh*t shoveled on her because an out controlled Superman was terrifying. It was Diana who had to deal with it and get the short end of the stick. And marriage to Lois never stopped that. It was part of why he went bananas too. His fears for her made him easy to manipulate. Being with a hero or human does not make Superman less feared or suspect. The risks of being who he is and what he is capable of by himself and the evil forces he attracts will always be there.

    It's a bias I can never get around that fans would think dna or abilities dictates Supes and Wondy's hearts and minds
    Last edited by kylesgirl; 01-07-2013 at 02:32 PM.

  4. #469
    New Member PallasBrenna's Avatar
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    Newsflash: "Wonder Woman and Superman were spotted having breakfast at a local diner in Smallville." If you're going by the Superman book then that's the author's prerogative. But, Justice League has set the tone. Johns has made it crystal clear to me they are not going to hide this relationship.

  5. #470
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PallasBrenna View Post
    Newsflash: "Wonder Woman and Superman were spotted having breakfast at a local diner in Smallville." If you're going by the Superman book then that's the author's prerogative. But, Justice League has set the tone. Johns has made it crystal clear to me they are not going to hide this relationship.
    Well, the relationship is still a secret as of right now. Case in point, Lobdell wrote in the recent Superman #15 that no one in the League knows about it except the voyeur Batman. No one knows about what happened in Smallville. Lobdell said Lois Lane--who runs the biggest news broadcast in the nation if not perhaps the whole world -- isn't aware of it. Since Johns was the one to decide to create drama with Batman's suspicion, I reckon he's planning on the relationship causing conflict at some point. The precise nature of that conflict is what I'm not sure of yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    People thinking the worse is inevitable. But this insistence that they would actually turn evil in a future scenario etc to me is lame and lazy.

    Look at what Superman can do alone. He should not have any kind of luxury and no one should give him the benefit of the doubt that he is well intentioned, if that is the line you want to take. This again is a judgement and in a way you actually condemning Wonder Woman as a person. You see her as the catalyst for being him turning evil. You seem to think Superman , the most powerful hero, who can bench press a planet, time travel , who has enemies that can attack at anytime in the time line, and so forth will not turn evil if he stays with a human..ie Lois. You do know he is going to save the whole world from ending or something in Action and funnily enough Diana has nothing to do with this? It is just got to do with who he is and the hatred the little man has for him? So tell me. You really think trying to stick this on WW makes sense?

    You are inferring he'll pose no dangers/risks once he hooks up with Lois. Never mind the stuff he did in the past. Sacrifice, where he was rampaging over the thought of Lois hurt etc, and having Wonder Woman having to deal with the mess and her getting the sh*t shoveled on her because an out controlled Superman was terrifying. It was Diana who had to deal with it and get the short end of the stick. And marriage to Lois never stopped that. It was part of why he went bananas too. His fears for her made him easy to manipulate. Being with a hero or human does not make Superman less feared or suspect. The risks of being who he is and what he is capable of by himself and the evil forces he attracts will always be there.

    It's a bias I can never get around that fans would think dna or abilities dictates Supes and Wondy's hearts and minds
    Actually, I agree with this. I neither like nor support a long-term relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman and favor Lois, but I also hate the idea of characterizing humanity as xenophobic and Superman and Wonder Woman as so dangerous simply because they're two superpowered people getting together.
    Last edited by misslane38; 01-07-2013 at 08:36 PM.

  6. #471

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Well, the relationship is still a secret as of right now. Case in point, Lobdell wrote in the recent Superman #15 that no one in the League knows about it except the voyeur Batman. No one knows about what happened in Smallville. Lobdell said Lois Lane--who runs the biggest news broadcast in the nation if not perhaps the whole world -- isn't aware of it. Since Johns was the one to decide to create drama with Batman's suspicion, I reckon he's planning on the relationship causing conflict at some point. The precise nature of that conflict is what I'm not sure of yet.



    Actually, I agree with this. I neither like nor support a long-term relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman and favor Lois, but I also hate the idea of characterizing humanity as xenophobic and Superman and Wonder Woman as so dangerous simply because they're two superpowered people getting together.
    Actually you all ( who claim their hook up will turn them evil or rogue) are being xenophobic towards Wonder Woman if you dissect what you are saying about her and her influence upon Clark. Because she is not human, or even maybe american or not his culture of whatever. You all judge Diana not on her personality. You judge her on what she can do. Yet you don't judge Clark if he hooks up with Lois because you claim Lois in other words is the only one to keep him human or in other words good.

    And there are facets of humanity that is xenopohobic. That is not a myth. It's fact. But readers who would know their heroes could give them the benefit of the doubt. But I see most cloisers actually using this argument a lot and it is rather undermining of Diana. Not as a romantic partner for anyone or Clark but as a woman and person and hero.
    Last edited by kylesgirl; 01-08-2013 at 03:19 AM.

  7. #472
    All Roads Lead To Hell 666MasterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Oh yeah, secrets leads to problems, but that's not indicative of "bumps in the road" problems every healthy relationship has, or Splitsville-destined problems. Now when you take that in conjunction with the She's-Not-Lois aspect, and the fact that Booster Gold vanished from existence, that's a different story. I just think that the fact that they tried to keep Batman and others out of the loop should not be used as foreshadowing of an impending breakup, whereas those other two things I mentioned more clearly are. Moreover, problems in the relationship is generally good narrative, regardless of the outcome.
    Agreed, although I'm not sure about the Booster Gold thing. Like it has been aid elsewhere, I'm pretty sure that what happened in the JLI Annual was a classic case of red herring.

    EDIT: Also, I don't think these two getting together means they'll turn evil. If that were the case, the JL would have gone rogue a long time ago.
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  8. #473
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Actually you all ( who claim their hook up will turn them evil or rogue) are being xenophobic towards Wonder Woman if you dissect what you are saying about her and her influence upon Clark.
    What? I was agreeing with you. I've never ever argued that being with Wonder Woman would turn Superman evil. I've never suggested she would be such a negative influence on Clark that they would become rogue elements. What I've said is that their relationship, because it is based on the idea that humans are precious things in need of protection, might breed a certain paternalistic attitude towards humanity.

    Because she is not human, or even maybe american or not his culture of whatever. You all judge Diana not on her personality. You judge her on what she can do. Yet you don't judge Clark if he hooks up with Lois because you claim Lois in other words is the only one to keep him human or in other words good.
    Nope. I've never said that hooking up with Diana instead of Lois would make Clark a bad person. Diana has a great personality and she can do amazing things that I truly admire. She's just not an ordinary human -- someone like Clark's parents -- who can link together the two worlds in Clark's life.

    And there are facets of humanity that is xenopohobic. That is not a myth. It's fact. But readers who would know their heroes could give them the benefit of the doubt. But I see most cloisers actually using this argument a lot and it is rather undermining of Diana. Not as a romantic partner for anyone or Clark but as a woman and person and hero.
    Most "cloisers" are using that argument because it appears to be the story DC is telling. They are discussing what DC is actually saying about how humanity and other heroes will respond to a Superman and Wonder Woman love affair. I happen to think freaking out because two heroes are dating is silly. I want Superman to be with Lois because I believe they're a better match not because I believe to be with Wonder Woman means trouble.

  9. #474
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViennaDeLaConcheta View Post
    This is "DCNU New 52". However this is my opinion. Superman and Wonder Woman have so many diferences for their back ground. They have come from different planet, different place, different circumstances, different conditions. All about them is different. It will pointed that their DNA structure could be different also. But above all their differences, there is something equaly similar beside their Soul, that is " Positively of Mind" that allow them wanting to do something useful to others and make a different world without criminal and evil by helping people to fight against them.
    The same reasoning applies to Lois Lane. Lois and Clark are from different worlds, backgrounds, and DNA yet they both are united by a mutual desire to change the world by fighting evil. Lois just happens to use journalism as her weapon instead of her fists.

    About statement that Wonder Woman will always be a second option, i just say that sometimes when your relationship with someone is turning to something you weren't expected, there are two options that allow you to make a new decision. Hold on to that relationship or move forward. And in the real life, mostly the new relationship is better and stronger as a completion than the previous one. There are many examples for this issue. Jennifer, Brad, Angelina. Chris, Kim, Kanye. They may survive, but it could end up in the middle. We'll never know.
    The idea that Wonder Woman would be second choice is based on an actual canon example. In Kingdom Come, despite moving on with Wonder Woman at the end of the story, Superman was still very much in love with Lois Lane.

    But why must afraid of changing and taking a chance? I think we must do what we feel in our heart to be right. We'll be wasted if we do, and wasted if we don't.
    This is exactly what I've been saying for months. Clark's heart is set on Lois, but he's not taking a chance with her because he's afraid. He's not following his bliss, if you will.

    About humanity. To me humanity is more interpreted as unconditional love in order helping people without taking for granted. Humanity to me doesn't mean that you have to be a human from earth, but it's more like we use our "positively mind" or "conscious" in every term and condition in order doing something useful to other and Universe. By serving and helping other people, then we have just served and help our selves. That is Superman and Wonder Woman have been realized for.
    If that's all humanity truly meant to Diana and Clark, then they wouldn't be characterizing themselves as being so different and separate from humans. They love humanity and possess humanity, but they do not see themselves as part of humanity. That's the key difference. Being with Lois and Steve would allow Clark and Diana to be connected to the humanity they love and the humanity within themselves.

  10. #475
    Senior Member the Sun God's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    Agreed, although I'm not sure about the Booster Gold thing. Like it has been aid elsewhere, I'm pretty sure that what happened in the JLI Annual was a classic case of red herring.

    EDIT: Also, I don't think these two getting together means they'll turn evil. If that were the case, the JL would have gone rogue a long time ago.
    Maybe Booster Gold has read The Dark Knight Strikes Again, where Superman and Wonder Woman cause earthquakes and volcanic eruptions by making love.

  11. #476
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    I wont Wondy and Supes to have a lot of trouble/hardship because of their relationship. Instant entertainment.:D

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    If that's all humanity truly meant to Diana and Clark, then they wouldn't be characterizing themselves as being so different and separate from humans. They love humanity and possess humanity, but they do not see themselves as part of humanity. That's the key difference. Being with Lois and Steve would allow Clark and Diana to be connected to the humanity they love and the humanity within themselves.
    This re-affirms to me your ideas of humanity or what that means is actually very limited. As are your ideas of what constitutes an individual.
    They also NEVER said they were separate in that they held themselves apart or are above humans. Diana is an earthling. Clark is an adopted earthling. Clark is immersed in human life. Diana has lived earth life too only lost in a different time and culture. Some humans have been horrible to the alien but he never tarred all of them with the same brush. He knows better.

    The burdens they shoulder is what makes them different as are their life experiences and what is expected of them. Lois or Steve can't remotely understand all their burdens and there must be moments no matter how well intending people are or empathetic, they would be alone in how they feel...the expectations upon them and the judgments and having the well being of so much people on their hands.

    Also part of evolving as a human or even a sentient being (it is a shared verse where aliens and gods etc exist) learning real humanity isn't by the person you choose to marry. It is by living life. Learning and experiencing happiness, tragedy, confronting dilemmas, making decisions, learning about others who are different from you etc. For people like Superman or Wonder Woman, Steve and Lois if they do marry them , it is only the start of their life lessons. They represent in the order of things, the basic lessons. Loving and treasuring humanity isn't about marriage either. The greatest humanitarians who walked this earth do not fit that picture you paint. They give of themselves but did not have to marry or be with a certain kind of person to cherish the earth and life.

    By themselves Clark and Diana have done this and will always do this. Together they get someone who would have walked a mile in each others shoes as well as being different enough to give a different perspective on matters.
    Last edited by thepenguin; 01-08-2013 at 09:33 AM.

  13. #478
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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    I wont Wondy and Supes to have a lot of trouble/hardship because of their relationship. Instant entertainment.:D
    I think they will have some tough times and if written well, it can enhance the dynamic and Booster trying to break them up will be one of those very funny things. :)

  14. #479
    All Roads Lead To Hell 666MasterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Sun God View Post
    Maybe Booster Gold has read The Dark Knight Strikes Again, where Superman and Wonder Woman cause earthquakes and volcanic eruptions by making love.
    Hehehe, perhaps. He was so shocked that he disappeared from the timestream.
    ... The Master Of Puppets has spoken.

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    Thank you for teaching me about love, patience and caring. Rest in Peace, my friend. I hope that wherever it is you are now, you can run and play as much as you want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco View Post
    I wont Wondy and Supes to have a lot of trouble/hardship because of their relationship. Instant entertainment.:D
    exactly, i'm sure everyone who's a fan of the relationship doesn't want it to be all easy for them.

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