What is Wonder Woman bringing on the table for Superman in their relationship?

[Namtab]

Bad writing is bad writing.

Sometimes. Though sometimes, bad writing, is in the eyes of the reader, who prefers another version of the story/character.

Inconsistent writing is bad writing.

Inconsistent between what? Different writers? These are comics, where many different writers get to tell their version of the characters. Lobdell, Perez, Giffen, and Jurgens, as you know, are different people. There are reasons why a lot of readers drop books when the creative team changes, despite liking the characters.

A female character shouldn't have to be undermined just to prop up a male character even if he's the protagonist. Any protagonist that requires the diminishing of another character in a ham-fisted way is a weak character indeed. Clark should be able to appear as a strong man of integrity without making Lois into a corporate sell out. It's not even necessary. Clark would have looked just as cool and just as morally righteous if Lois had in any way indicated she was on his side.

See, I don't see Lois as a female character, as much as I see her as a support character. If it were Jimmy, that was somehow worked into the story instead, that would have worked too. Or, the scene could have just been re-worked with Clark and Perry, and they could have left out Lois, altogether.

[misslane38]

Sometimes. Though sometimes, bad writing, is in the eyes of the reader, who prefers another version of the story/character.

You prefer a version of Lois who is a corporate sell out?

Inconsistent between what? Different writers? These are comics, where many different writers get to tell their version of the characters. Lobdell, Perez, Giffen, and Jurgens, as you know, are different people. There are reasons why a lot of readers drop books when the creative team changes, despite liking the characters.

Yes, the inconsistent writing occurred because Lobdell abandoned the prior characterization established by Perez and Giffen/Jurgens. If Lobdell wanted to explore Lois as a journalist content on compromising her integrity, then he would have written it as an organic shift. Good writers don't lightswitch characters just so they can play around with their own hobby horse. And, if Lobdell wants the freedom to offer his own spin on Lois Lane, then I should be able to say that writing Lois as a sell out is a ridiculously awful idea, especially if it is done in an unnecessary attempt to make Clark look more awesome.

See, I don't see Lois as a female character, as much as I see her as a support character. If it were Jimmy, that was somehow worked into the story instead, that would have worked too. Or, the scene could have just been re-worked with Clark and Perry, and they could have left out Lois, altogether.

If Lobdell had left Lois out of this arc to preserve her integrity, then I would have gladly accepted her being off-page with Jonathan as a foreign correspondent. Lois is a supporting character and a female character. The fact that Lois was lightswitched to lose her principles instead of using Jimmy does make one wonder. I would have preferred a reworked scene to what Lobdell wrote. I would have preferred nothing at all if Lois could keep her integrity in tact. Quality over quantity is the only thing that matters to me. If Lobdell can't write Lois well, then he shouldn't write her at all. Send her off to film a hard hitting documentary on Syria. I don't care. But don't keep her around just to tear her down.

[kylesgirl]

He's baring all? When is he going to tell Diana that he's courting her while he's still hung up on another woman? And, if this couple is all about truth, why are they currently keeping their relationship a secret from the rest of the Justice League? Superman is able to be honest about his life with Wonder Woman because it is easy: he doesn't have to worry about her safety. Clark's inability to open up with other people in his life is a matter of fear not mistrust.

You must seriously be out of date, out of touch with dating rules. Thank God Clark is taking Geoff Johns' advice on dating and not yours.

Your way is sure to make him into a pathetic loser. Yeah, first dates are to talk about the girl I had this crush on once. Anyone with some common sense know any one don't talk crushes, lovers, exes on first dates etc. If you actually interested in the woman or man in front of you. But leave it to you to drag in Lois. Like she is really needs to define how he behaves on dates now.

Thankfully they talked about their heroics and his/her family. And Diana has zero to hide from him. He knew she dated Steve once.

Maybe Clark got friendzoned by Lois because like a pathetic loser he went on about Lana.

And as to why they keeping it a secret. Because it is their business. Least she's not writing stories on him and pretending to shape world opinion while secretly married to him. But that's okay isn't it? Yeah and let Superman define his existence by Lois and having to save her. That's better option.

[Namtab]

You prefer a version of Lois who is a corporate sell out?

Honestly, I don't think I have a preferred version of Lois. I read Superman/Action for Superman/Clark -- Lois, Jimmy, Perry are all there to help move the plot forward. So, while I don't prefer it, it doesn't bother me, either.

Yes, the inconsistent writing occurred because Lobdell abandoned the prior characterization established by Perez and Giffen/Jurgens. If Lobdell wanted to explore Lois as a journalist content on compromising her integrity, then he would have written it as an organic shift. Good writers don't lightswitch characters just so they can play around with their own hobby horse. And, if Lobdell wants the freedom to offer his own spin on Lois Lane, then I should be able to say that writing Lois as a sell out is a ridiculously awful idea, especially if it is done in an unnecessary attempt to make Clark look more awesome.

Lobdell chose to abandon what came before, so what? He's not the first writer to do so; he won't be the last. Editorial didn't seem to have an issue with it... but maybe they had a more sinister intent. Anyways, the goal should always be "to make Clark look more awesome."

If Lobdell had left Lois out of this arc to preserve her integrity, then I would have gladly accepted her being off-page with Jonathan as a foreign correspondent. Lois is a supporting character and a female character. The fact that Lois was lightswitched to lose her principles instead of using Jimmy does make one wonder. I would have preferred a reworked scene to what Lobdell wrote. I would have preferred nothing at all if Lois could keep her integrity in tact. Quality over quantity is the only thing that matters to me. If Lobdell can't write Lois well, then he shouldn't write her at all. Send her off to film a hard hitting documentary on Syria. I don't care. But don't keep her around just to tear her down.

Well, I guess we agree that Lobdell should not waste anymore time on Lois, then.

[kylesgirl]

When was the last time you heard a man or woman tell that to someone they are seeing in real life. Let's face it whether it be in comics or real life we are never 100% truthful to each other in relationships. We all hide our secret loves and what if's to protect what we have.

Lexrules, if one wants to genuinely get to know a man or woman, you don't do crap like that on early dates. You really think if you are newly courting your wife or girlfriend she wants to hear about your past life on who you crushed on who you slept with on an early date? There are unspoken dating rules. You'd lose a woman so fast. Unless Clark is an insensitive jackass, he'd do that. And having a secret crush where one is friendzoned is what happened. How many crushes have we all had and been friendzoned? Diana was in a relationship with Trevor and Clark knows it. You think he's sitting there worrying...oh she kissed Trevor. I must be second best? I doubt Clark is that pathetic. It's a normal part of life to undergo for many of us and it certainly does not have to stop any man or woman from moving on and finding something genuine and real.

Misslane's desire is very clear. She wants Clark to undermine Diana by harping on about Lois so she can say oh look he can't stop talking about Lois. Why would any sane person demand a man to tell a woman about some crush on a first date? Lois has zero to do with their date. It is nothing to do with her. It's ironic who is talking about writing strong women and men really.

[Lexrules]

Lexrules, if one wants to genuinely get to know a man or woman, you don't do crap like that on early dates. You really think if you are newly courting your wife or girlfriend she wants to hear about your past life on who you crushed on who you slept with on an early date? There are unspoken dating rules. You'd lose a woman so fast. Unless Clark is an insensitive jackass, he'd do that. And having a secret crush where one is friendzoned is what happened. How many crushes have we all had and been friendzoned? Diana was in a relationship with Trevor and Clark knows it. You think he's sitting there worrying...oh she kissed Trevor. I must be second best? I doubt Clark is that pathetic. It's a normal part of life to undergo for many of us and it certainly does not have to stop any man or woman from moving on and finding something genuine and real.

Misslane's desire is very clear. She wants Clark to undermine Diana by harping on about Lois so she can say oh look he can't stop talking about Lois. Why would any sane person demand a man to tell a woman about some crush on a first date? Lois has zero to do with their date. It is nothing to do with her. It's ironic who is talking about writing strong women and men really.

That is what I was saying kylesgirl .

Miss Lane thinks Clark should tell Diana about his crush on Lois and I said we all have our secret crushes and desires that we never tell our significant others.

Hell we have all been there.

[kylesgirl]

That is what I was saying kylesgirl .

Miss Lane thinks Clark should tell Diana about his crush on Lois and I said we all have our secret crushes and desires that we never tell our significant others.

Hell we have all been there.

High five. I know right?

See we sexist folks on these CBR forums seem to have some iota of common sense and knowledge about dating rules and how to treat a partner one is newly dating. Talk about old flames or crushes and it will get you dumped. Sane people will run a mile.

[stillanerd]

He's baring all? When is he going to tell Diana that he's courting her while he's still hung up on another woman? And, if this couple is all about truth, why are they currently keeping their relationship a secret from the rest of the Justice League? Superman is able to be honest about his life with Wonder Woman because it is easy: he doesn't have to worry about her safety. Clark's inability to open up with other people in his life is a matter of fear not mistrust.

When was the last time you heard a man or woman tell that to someone they are seeing in real life. Let's face it whether it be in comics or real life we are never 100% truthful to each other in relationships. We all hide our secret loves and what if's to protect what we have.

That is what I was saying kylesgirl .

Miss Lane thinks Clark should tell Diana about his crush on Lois and I said we all have our secret crushes and desires that we never tell our significant others.

Hell we have all been there.

High five. I know right?

See we sexist folks on these CBR forums seem to have some iota of common sense and knowledge about dating rules and how to treat a partner one is newly dating. Talk about old flames or crushes and it will get you dumped. Sane people will run a mile.

Well of course if you're in a relationship with someone but have a crush on someone else, telling the person you're dating would be a very bad idea if you were serious about the relationship. That being said, Superman still pining for Lois while being in a relationship with Wonder Woman does suggest that he's not in love with Wonder Woman so much that he's just using her as means of trying to get over Lois. Like or not, Wonder Woman has become Superman's consolation prize. And let's not forget the larger that was made in that Superman and Wonder Woman are keeping their relationship a secret, which is not a good sign either.

[DochaDocha]

And let's not forget the larger that was made in that Superman and Wonder Woman are keeping their relationship a secret, which is not a good sign either.

I don't necessarily see that as a bad omen. I mean, I assume they'll break up eventually. The ultimate bad omen for any Superman relationship not with Lois is that the other women aren't Lois, and we all get that feeling it'll be back to Supes and Lois. That said, keeping it a secret is in itself not a predictor of how healthy their relationship is. All you need to do is watch one sexual harassment HR video to understand why any two co-workers might not be so eager to tell everyone about their dating status early on.

Conversely, it doesn't matter how clunky or how many hiccups there can be in writing Superman's relationship with Lois Lane, we're all going to believe deep down that those problems would be overcome. I didn't watch much Smallville, but it didn't matter how many nice moments Lana and Clark had, because I knew it wasn't going to work. Likewise, I didn't take any relationship Lois had (I think, don't know/recall details) with other men seriously, because her fate likewise felt predetermined. It's probably impossible to separate our preexisting conceptions of Superman and his dating life from what's happening in the books, unless you outwardly choose to believe otherwise.

[stillanerd]

I don't necessarily see that as a bad omen. I mean, I assume they'll break up eventually. The ultimate bad omen for any Superman relationship not with Lois is that the other women aren't Lois, and we all get that feeling it'll be back to Supes and Lois. That said, keeping it a secret is in itself not a predictor of how healthy their relationship is. All you need to do is watch one sexual harassment HR video to understand why any two co-workers might not be so eager to tell everyone about their dating status early on.

Of course, but the reason why I'm suggesting Superman and Wonder Woman keeping their relationship secret could be seen as a bad omen is because, whenever there's a story in which two lovers try to keep their relationship a secret, disastrous consequences follow. After all, based what we've been told about how the world views superheroes in the New 52, in which some regard even the motives of Superman with suspicion, the idea of two of the most powerful beings on the planet being romantically involved would be seen as confirmation for some that the superheroes are indeed a threat to the survival of the human race. After all, Batman--who is supposed to be Superman and Wonder Woman's friend--is secretly keeping an eye on them, not to mention other superheroes, because he knows that the possibility of superheroes turning rogue could happen and probably sees Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship as a potential problem for the Justice League down the road.

[stillanerd]

EDIT: double post

[DochaDocha]

Of course, but the reason why I'm suggesting Superman and Wonder Woman keeping their relationship secret could be seen as a bad omen is because, whenever there's a story in which two lovers try to keep their relationship a secret, disastrous consequences follow. After all, based what we've been told about how the world views superheroes in the New 52, in which some regard even the motives of Superman with suspicion, the idea of two of the most powerful beings on the planet being romantically involved would be seen as confirmation for some that the superheroes are indeed a threat to the survival of the human race. After all, Batman--who is supposed to be Superman and Wonder Woman's friend--is secretly keeping an eye on them, not to mention other superheroes, because he knows that the possibility of superheroes turning rogue could happen and probably sees Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship as a potential problem for the Justice League down the road.

Fair enough, but if for some reason Clark Kent and Lois Lane decided to keep their relationship a secret from their friends and colleagues, I bet the number of longtime readers who will see that as a bad omen would be nearing zero.

[kylesgirl]

Of course, but the reason why I'm suggesting Superman and Wonder Woman keeping their relationship secret could be seen as a bad omen is because, whenever there's a story in which two lovers try to keep their relationship a secret, disastrous consequences follow. After all, based what we've been told about how the world views superheroes in the New 52, in which some regard even the motives of Superman with suspicion, the idea of two of the most powerful beings on the planet being romantically involved would be seen as confirmation for some that the superheroes are indeed a threat to the survival of the human race. After all, Batman--who is supposed to be Superman and Wonder Woman's friend--is secretly keeping an eye on them, not to mention other superheroes, because he knows that the possibility of superheroes turning rogue could happen and probably sees Superman and Wonder Woman's relationship as a potential problem for the Justice League down the road.

I will laugh if this seriously never come to pass. I think you want to believe this so bad. For that matter why are the world even putting up with the whole League? They all could turn rogue. Not just two.

I think back in the Satellite Era it took Clark and all the others a long time to even share they has secret ids. It took Mark Waid's Divided We Fall to have them do that. They worked with each other etc and yet did not share much about themselvs right way and let's not talk how long it must have taken him to even tell them all he was dating Lois or was married to her. So let's get some perspective here okay. You have years of Clark hiding and lying to the people he called his best friends and colleagues ( He told Diana the whole truth in Action 600....not too long after meeting her) and now you criticizing Clark and Diana for trying to keep something new and personal to themselves? The League are only just starting to trust each other. I really don't see where you are coming from at all.

[stillanerd]

Fair enough, but if for some reason Clark Kent and Lois Lane decided to keep their relationship a secret from their friends and colleagues, I bet the number of longtime readers who will see that as a bad omen would be nearing zero.

Granted, sometimes when a story showing two fictional characters in a secret romance doesn't always portend that something bad will happen because it was kept secret. I'm just saying the way the current relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman has been set up, them keeping their romance a secret is going to lead to problems. Also, in the case of Clark and Lois, they didn't exactly keep their relationship a secret; the only thing their friends and colleagues weren't aware of was that Clark was also Superman.

I will laugh if this seriously never come to pass. I think you want to believe this so bad. For that matter why are the world even putting up with the whole League? They all could turn rogue. Not just two.

Except there's already been a hint that Superman and Wonder Woman getting together IS a bad thing. Remember what happened in the Justice League International Annual? It's heavily implied that, based on Booster Gold vanishing from the timestream, that the seed for Earth's future being doomed started once Superman and Wonder Woman kissed. Also, as for the world putting up with the League, remember why Steve Trevor was around in the first place--he was the liaison officer who was convincing his superiors that the Justice League are the good guys. He was their check and balance, so to speak. And why do you think there's going to be a Justice League of America being formed with Steve Trevor? Because the implication is that US government wants their own sanctioned Justice League they can monitor and control, especially one that can check an independent group like the Justice League.

I think back in the Satellite Era it took Clark and all the others a long time to even share they has secret ids. It took Mark Waid's Divided We Fall to have them do that. They worked with each other etc and yet did not share much about themselvs right way and let's not talk how long it must have taken him to even tell them all he was dating Lois or was married to her. So let's get some perspective here okay. You have years of Clark hiding and lying to the people he called his best friends and colleagues ( He told Diana the whole truth in Action 600....not too long after meeting her) and now you criticizing Clark and Diana for trying to keep something new and personal to themselves? The League are only just starting to trust each other. I really don't see where you are coming from at all.

You have to look in context, though. As the New 52 has established, people we're afraid and distrustful of superheroes when they first arrived on the scene. It was when the Justice League beat back Darkseid and his invasion that the public started to regard them as genuine heroes. That being said, we've been told many, many times that there are people--particularly the governments of the world--who still are worried about the superhuman presence on Earth. Superman himself is still regarded with suspicion, distrust and fear as much has he is adulation. Batman himself put up Brother Eye as means of monitoring them. And this is still going on even after 5 years (which you would think, in the case of the Justice League, they would've come to trust one another by now). In such a backdrop, knowledge of Superman and Wonder Woman--the two most powerful beings on the planet--being romantically involved would cause various people to lose their collective s*** and put an even bigger bullseye on the Justice League as a result. What's more, Superman and Wonder Woman being in a relationship could be seen as an imbalance of power within the Justice League as they essentially become alliance. Not to mention that, based on the promos for the upcoming Trinity War, we know that Justice League is going to fracture with Superman on one side and Batman on the other. And in that scenario, you have both Superman and Wonder Woman, the two most powerful members of the League, on the same side.

[DochaDocha]

Granted, sometimes when a story showing two fictional characters in a secret romance doesn't always portend that something bad will happen because it was kept secret. I'm just saying the way the current relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman has been set up, them keeping their romance a secret is going to lead to problems. Also, in the case of Clark and Lois, they didn't exactly keep their relationship a secret; the only thing their friends and colleagues weren't aware of was that Clark was also Superman.

Oh yeah, secrets leads to problems, but that's not indicative of "bumps in the road" problems every healthy relationship has, or Splitsville-destined problems. Now when you take that in conjunction with the She's-Not-Lois aspect, and the fact that Booster Gold vanished from existence, that's a different story. I just think that the fact that they tried to keep Batman and others out of the loop should not be used as foreshadowing of an impending breakup, whereas those other two things I mentioned more clearly are. Moreover, problems in the relationship is generally good narrative, regardless of the outcome.

My Clark and Lois idea was purely hypothetical, not referencing anything in the past. But in this continuity, I can easily imagine why they'd keep it quiet. A lot of people are private and just don't want to be judged, and with the drama they recently had, it seems even more likely.