What is Wonder Woman bringing on the table for Superman in their relationship?

[misslane38]

That is always going to be the case. Someone else will want to change things up, go back to how it was, redo in a different way then someone after them will want to change it all again. I think though one of the smartest writers has taken the character of Steve Trevor and basically given him his balls back. He's not just Wonder Woman crush any more and is a fully realized character within the same universe as she. Lois has already been somewhat well developed beyond Superman that now she has the chance to also be more than just the girlfriend/wife. I think that's one of the more refreshing things they've done this time around. Not just repeat the same old routine as we've seen with these characters but check them out and see where they fit if there were no Superman or Wonder Woman. I know I enjoy Steve more now than I ever have and I love this friendship Lois has with Clark. They sort of remind me of the couple that could see themselves together but can't figure it out so they just ignore the attraction and pursue others. They aren't just waiting any longer which actually makes them seem more deserving of the heroes (especially in Steve's case).

Lois was a strong, independent supporting character through a decent amount of earlier eras. She definitely was better off than she is now where she doesn't have a character arc of her own other than one revolving around her relationship with a boyfriend we never see. Plus, Lobdell threw her long standing journalistic principles under a bus by totally contradicting all of the New 52's prior canon of her standing up to Edge. Anytime anyone here, elsewhere, or from DC and its creators themselves says Lois is more of her own character now than she was before the reboot is seriously kidding themselves or knowingly speaking little more than BS. Steve's benefited more than Lois has and it's completely unacceptable.

[Alpha Male]

At some point I would like to see how the media in the DCU would react or depict a Superman/Wonder Woman relationship. The term Super Couple comes to mind! Maybe someone from the Planet can snap pictures of them in a romantic embrace. I picture Superman and Wonder Woman being tabloid fodder in the DCU. That would be a great way to explore how a couple like them handles having a relationship in the spotlight.

[misslane38]

At some point I would like to see how the media in the DCU would react or depict a Superman/Wonder Woman relationship. The term Super Couple comes to mind! Maybe someone from the Planet can snap pictures of them in a romantic embrace. I picture Superman and Wonder Woman being tabloid fodder in the DCU. That would be a great way to explore how a couple like them handles having a relationship in the spotlight.

Just like story beats in the Lois and Clark relationship, the story beat of the world speculating about Superman and Wonder Woman has been explored repeatedly before. Take this panel from Action Comics #600:



They'll probably come a time in the New 52 where they'll cover this topic again, which will probably be somewhat reminiscent of how the public handled Steve Trevor and Wonder Woman's relationship. As with anything done before, the predictability of it doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be bad or boring in any way. I guess we'll see.

[Fate's Faith]

Lois was a strong, independent supporting character through a decent amount of earlier eras. She definitely was better off than she is now where she doesn't have a character arc of her own other than one revolving around her relationship with a boyfriend we never see. Plus, Lobdell threw her long standing journalistic principles under a bus by totally contradicting all of the New 52's prior canon of her standing up to Edge. Anytime anyone here, elsewhere, or from DC and its creators themselves says Lois is more of her own character now than she was before the reboot is seriously kidding themselves or knowingly speaking little more than BS. Steve's benefited more than Lois has and it's completely unacceptable.

You know, I've changed my mind. I think I'd rather have Lois ran over by a bus and have every bit of her skinned till there's nothing to bury because I'm tired of hearing how every freaking female character in comics is a GODDAMN VICTIM!!!

[misslane38]

You know, I've changed my mind. I think I'd rather have Lois ran over by a bus and have every bit of her skinned till there's nothing to bury because I'm tired of hearing how every freaking female character in comics is a GODDAMN VICTIM!!!

You were the one who previously characterized Lois Lane's character while in a relationship with Clark as a victim of unsatisfactory writing and development, so I assumed you cared about Lois getting proper treatment whether she was a woman or not. I didn't even make my post about gender. I was comparing the fairness of supporting characters' treatment and said nothing about my frustration being feminist in nature. I'm sorry to challenge what appears to be the happy delusion you were enjoying that Lois was getting a good deal in the New 52, but unless you can dispute my characterization of her current treatment the best I can say is your reaction suggests that the truth hurts. So much so, in fact, that you decided to respond in a nasty and childish way by suggesting Lois be murdered in some very gruesome ways. I'm actually quite shocked.

[Fate's Faith]

You were the one who previously characterized Lois Lane's character while in a relationship with Clark as a victim of unsatisfactory writing and development, so I assumed you cared about Lois getting proper treatment whether she was a woman or not. I didn't even make my post about gender. I was comparing the fairness of supporting characters' treatment and said nothing about my frustration being feminist in nature. I'm sorry to challenge what appears to be the happy delusion you were enjoying that Lois was getting a good deal in the New 52, but unless you can dispute my characterization of her current treatment the best I can say is your reaction suggests that the truth hurts. So much so, in fact, that you decided to respond in a nasty and childish way by suggesting Lois be murdered in some very gruesome ways. I'm actually quite shocked.

I had a good amount to respond to but I'm not bothering because all you see are victims. That's what the issue is. I love the female characters at DC. Some of the best you will find in fiction anywhere in any media. But you and your ilk are all about making sure we remember that women serve one purpose. They are to be victims. And if they ever start to look to be more than just the victim then someone such as yourself will come along and tear it all down to show how they are still victims. So you like women as victims. Great. I think its marvelous at the number of ways people come up on how to make sure female characters never move beyond being the victim of something or someone. Victims. Victims are those that are gruesomely murdered so I think maybe you'd love that so you can keep marching to your victim speech. Lois is a victim. Diana is a victim. I think we get it.

Here's something to think about, if this was reversed and someone kept harping on some male character being victimized, that character would have already been killed off. Male victims aren't the norm. Too bad you can't allow that to also be true for female characters.

[hellacre]

I had a good amount to respond to but I'm not bothering because all you see are victims. That's what the issue is. I love the female characters at DC. Some of the best you will find in fiction anywhere in any media. But you and your ilk are all about making sure we remember that women serve one purpose. They are to be victims. And if they ever start to look to be more than just the victim then someone such as yourself will come along and tear it all down to show how they are still victims. So you like women as victims. Great. I think its marvelous at the number of ways people come up on how to make sure female characters never move beyond being the victim of something or someone. Victims. Victims are those that are gruesomely murdered so I think maybe you'd love that so you can keep marching to your victim speech. Lois is a victim. Diana is a victim. I think we get it.

Here's something to think about, if this was reversed and someone kept harping on some male character being victimized, that character would have already been killed off. Male victims aren't the norm. Too bad you can't allow that to also be true for female characters.

Here's something to think about, if this was reversed and someone kept harping on some male character being victimized, that character would have already been killed off. Male victims aren't the norm. Too bad you can't allow that to also be true for female characters.

Got to say I agree. DC has always had good female characters and it's male creators and artists that make many of them great. Yes, female creators do a great job equally too and yes, would like to see more female creators but judging by the vitriol I have read from some people around the net who call themselves feminists, you'd swear most of the males in DC are all misogynists and have no mother, sister, wife, girlfriend etc. All they see is everything as an attack or who they like as victimized because they want to see something their way. Never mind many male characters have their time being shelved or killed off too. There is bad writing and there is good writing. Male and female creators are capable of both.

This is one of the things I have become totally fed up of. This crusade to claim it it is about sexism, when it clearly in many cases is a case of..."I am not getting what I want." It was at the start of the new 52 and now it is ammo some are using to suit their own agenda.

No one should try to shame or guilt you or anyone for expressing an opinion on comics and fictional characters.

[PallasBrenna]

I wish Wonder Woman would have Superman wear her lasso of truth for one day. I'm curious to see the markings when he dons the Clark Kent incompetent act. Burn baby burn.

[hellacre]

I wish Wonder Woman would have Superman wear her lasso of truth for one day. I'm curious to see the markings when he dons the Clark Kent incompetent act. Burn baby burn.

lol. He couldn't lie to her even if he tried. But this time he's not trying. He's baring it all. So there is another thing she brings...truth.

[misslane38]

Never mind many male characters have their time being shelved or killed off too. There is bad writing and there is good writing.

The problem is that there are more male characters, so killing one of them off doesn't cause the same damage as killing of rare female characters. Also, when men die in comics, their deaths are not used to propel a female hero into heroism or action. Male deaths in comics also tend to be more active (they die while being heroic or proactive in some way) whereas as female deaths often showcase women in passive roles where they are being degraded by a man in some fashion.

This is one of the things I have become totally fed up of. This crusade to claim it it is about sexism, when it clearly in many cases is a case of..."I am not getting what I want." It was at the start of the new 52 and now it is ammo some are using to suit their own agenda.

Do you have any way of demonstrating that some of the writing for characters like Lois and Diana doesn't have potentially questionable gender connotations? For example, you don't think there's any problem with Lobdell writing Lois as an unprincipled journalist -- a 180 degree shift in her prior New 52 characterization under Perez and Giffen/Jurgens -- so that Clark can make his big Jerry Maguire speech and likely later help Lois see the light? You don't see the problem with encouraging fans to reduce Lois' or Diana's worth to a male character like Superman to the relative strength of their reproductive parts based on a silly essay? You don't think there is something sexist in suggesting a woman who cannot equal a man in strength cannot be his equal at all? You don't think it is problematic that the difference between Wonder Woman's characterization in Wonder Woman versus Justice Leage -- the former ignoring the "status quo" and the latter developing it the most -- is that Diana is strong, wise, and independent in one but lost, vulnerable, and confused in the other?

No one should try to shame or guilt you or anyone for expressing an opinion on comics and fictional characters.

I assume this goes both ways.

I had a good amount to respond to but I'm not bothering because all you see are victims. That's what the issue is.

This is getting so very confusing, since my initial response to you on this topic was entirely because you claimed Pre-Flashpoint Lois Lane was victimized by bad writing. And unless you can explain to me how New 52 Lois Lane's characterization is not suffering the way I described, then it hardly makes sense to criticize me for pointing it out as a problem. Lois and Diana have been victims of bad writing as has Superman. The writing is neither all bad or all god, but there are problems I believe should be addressed. Male victims in comics aren't the norm because male characters are often written better than female characters in comics. Writers are male and they are trying to the appeal to males so of course they aren't going to characterize men in unappealing ways. I will say again, however, that I do believe New 52 has been the victim of occasional poor writing as well. It's certainly not a positive thing that he's been written at time as a coward, a jerk, and a bully.

lol. He couldn't lie to her even if he tried. But this time he's not trying. He's baring it all. So there is another thing she brings...truth.

He's baring all? When is he going to tell Diana that he's courting her while he's still hung up on another woman? And, if this couple is all about truth, why are they currently keeping their relationship a secret from the rest of the Justice League? Superman is able to be honest about his life with Wonder Woman because it is easy: he doesn't have to worry about her safety. Clark's inability to open up with other people in his life is a matter of fear not mistrust.

[Lexrules]

He's baring all? When is he going to tell Diana that he's courting her while he's still hung up on another woman? And, if this couple is all about truth, why are they currently keeping their relationship a secret from the rest of the Justice League? Superman is able to be honest about his life with Wonder Woman because it is easy: he doesn't have to worry about her safety. Clark's inability to open up with other people in his life is a matter of fear not mistrust

When was the last time you heard a man or woman tell that to someone they are seeing in real life. Let's face it whether it be in comics or real life we are never 100% truthful to each other in relationships. We all hide our secret loves and what if's to protect what we have.

[Namtab]

I don't see a male/female/sexist issue here -- it's simply main characters vs. supporting characters.

I "don't think there's any problem with Lobdell writing Lois as an unprincipled journalist -- so that Clark can make his big Jerry Maguire speech and likely later help Lois see the light," because it's Superman's book where Clark/Superman is the main character, and Lois is there solely to support him. Everything about Lois' identity serves Superman's book(s) -- she's Clark's co-worker, and will one day, be Superman/Clark's love interest again. There's no sexism there, just the main character and support character dynamic. When the support character is not needed, they aren't used. That is why we're seeing less of Lois, these days. Lois has, in the past, starred in her own book, but that's not the case here, so her playing second fiddle shouldn't really be a surprise.

Wonder Woman is Superman's love interest right now, and she too can be written as a support character, when she show's up in Superman's book.

[misslane38]

I don't see a male/female/sexist issue here -- it's simply main characters vs. supporting characters.

I "don't think there's any problem with Lobdell writing Lois as an unprincipled journalist -- so that Clark can make his big Jerry Maguire speech and likely later help Lois see the light," because it's Superman's book where Clark/Superman is the main character, and Lois is there solely to support him. Everything about Lois' identity serves Superman's book(s) -- she's Clark's co-worker, and will one day, be Superman/Clark's love interest again. There's no sexism there, just the main character and support character dynamic. When the support character is not needed, they aren't used. That is why we're seeing less of Lois, these days. Lois has, in the past, starred in her own book, but that's not the case here, so her playing second fiddle should really be a surprise.

Wonder Woman is Superman's love interest right now, and she too can be written as a support character, when she show's up in Superman's book.

I didn't say anything about the quantity of Lois Lane's presence, though. I specifically criticized the lightswitched destruction of her journalistic principles. Being a supporting character doesn't justify character assassination.

[Namtab]

I didn't say anything about the quantity of Lois Lane's presence, though. I specifically criticized the lightswitched destruction of her journalistic principles. Being a supporting character doesn't justify character assassination.

Yeah, I brought up quantity of appearances, just to show how unnecessary she is, at times. She's only brought in when it serves Superman/Clark's story. If Lois' character has some low moments (lightswitched destruction of her journalistic principles, as you call it), in order to prop up Clark's story, so be it. It's his book.

If this were Lois' book, then she could be the one having those "Jerry Maguire" moments.

[misslane38]

Yeah, I brought up quantity of appearances, just to show how unnecessary she is, at times. She's only brought in when it serves Superman/Clark's story. If Lois' character has some low moments (lightswitched destruction of her journalistic principles, as you call it), in order to prop up Clark's story, so be it. It's his book.

If this were Lois' book, then she could be the one having those "Jerry Maguire" moments.

Bad writing is bad writing. Inconsistent writing is bad writing. A female character shouldn't have to be undermined just to prop up a male character even if he's the protagonist. Any protagonist that requires the diminishing of another character in a ham-fisted way is a weak character indeed. Clark should be able to appear as a strong man of integrity without making Lois into a corporate sell out. It's not even necessary. Clark would have looked just as cool and just as morally righteous if Lois had in any way indicated she was on his side.