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  1. #316
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Has anyone read Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme, Hyperion and Princess Power almost cling to one another out of a desperation and convenience. The romance is secondary and kind of sad.

    I have to believe they sincerely love each other, even if it's not ultimately the loves of their life... Maybe Mera's got a cousin. Let her take some heat for blocking Lois!
    Last edited by Coyote2010; 01-03-2013 at 11:06 AM.

  2. #317
    Hopeful Writer Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    What does the slave issue have to do with her and blaming her? Is Superman responsible for what he could not affect before he was born?

    Clark has often shown while in one relationship he can actually give himself to that relationship. Triangles are lazy and cliched.

    Azzarello's WW to be honest, I am wondering how many of those changes will stick after he goes. But Azzarello seems not to care about WW's history. On the whole. Johns is still trying to play and update them. Until we can see those changes of WW influence the wider DCU, I am not sure how it will affect the character. She's gotten some new powers for example, who knows if they are going to be used in the DCU.She barely even flies in her own book even though she got the power of flight.Azzarello is world building and who knows what's next. Johns probably doesn't. It's like when Morrison was building Action. Perez didn't know what was happening.

    But end of the day Johns has things to work with. WW has a history and she should not only be about Gods. Geoff is telling her story of her arrival in the world and her relationships etc because Azzarello in interviews has never really said he had interest in that. He is focused on the mythology side.

    If the Superman and JL writers are willing to take the slack and write her in those books then that fine for now. Azzarello will not stay indefintely and the Gods plotting can't be dragged on and on. Look at WW as just fleshing out one aspect of her story. JL another.
    Given Clark's view point on how they need to do more for the world, I would think a lot. People still are upset over events that passed thousands of years ago, and it would be suprising to me if Clark didn't at least question Diana's view on the subject matter given that they turned people that were just babies into slaves.

    We know that of the old Clark, this is a first for the new Clark, and while I"m sure he'll follow that pattern I'm going to honestly wonder how long that will last. See and that's a problem right there in the regards to the Wonder Woman issue. If she was just in her own title, well okay do as you will writer, but she's being shared and due to that I would think that one would want to navigate that between the two creative teams, or if that can't be done, then take her out of the JL and leave her to her own devices until Azzarello's doen with her. You run this risk when you have a interconnecting continuity, and it should be addressed.

    If that's the case of the fleshing then there should be at least some points of fact that connect the two works in a way. Nods from one side or the other to say "Hey this is the same person." Because to the reader it can be annoying, I think.

  3. #318
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    So the question is what she brings ON the table?

    Dinner, is allI gotta say.....






    (sorry, couldn't resist. Didn't read the whole thread, I'm sure that joke was made already. Oh! Hey! Here comes misslane to defend...)

    WW's going to bring someone for Superman to talk to. Think of police officers: even happily married ones sometimes have affairs with co-workers because they can share the horrific things they've witnessed with them. Many cops don't want to burden a spouse with the info that they responded to a call of someone nuking their baby in the microwave; other cops have been there, though. Same thing with doctors, etc.

    Clark was never able to share 100% of his life with Lois. There are just some things Lois could never understand. I'm sure there were specifics about his thoughts & feelings regarding his death that he never shared with Lois that he probably did with Diana. Speaking old DCU, of course. Clark was a pretty happy guy post-Return, but outside of Hunter/Prey we never really saw the effect on him.

    That's the kind of thing Diana brings to the table. This isn't to undercut Lois at all; theirs is one of the great love stories. Together, they share what it is to be human. With Diana, they share what it is to be gods.

    Figuratively speaking.

  4. #319
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverYoung8 View Post
    WW's going to bring someone for Superman to talk to. Think of police officers: even happily married ones sometimes have affairs with co-workers because they can share the horrific things they've witnessed with them. Many cops don't want to burden a spouse with the info that they responded to a call of someone nuking their baby in the microwave; other cops have been there, though. Same thing with doctors, etc.
    Many cops and soldiers are also happily married because they are able to find spouses who are capable of demonstrating empathy. As a trained counselor, I help adolescents cope with painful feelings and experiences that I have never personally experienced. One doesn't have to endure all of the same things in life to be a source of support, comfort, and strength. John Adams and Abigail Adams are one of my all time favorite historical figures. He was a politician while she was simply a highly educated wife and mother. Abigail didn't have to argue at the Continental Congress or defend British troops for their role in a massacre for her to provide John with the wisdom and comfort he required.

    Clark was never able to share 100% of his life with Lois. There are just some things Lois could never understand. I'm sure there were specifics about his thoughts & feelings regarding his death that he never shared with Lois that he probably did with Diana. Speaking old DCU, of course. Clark was a pretty happy guy post-Return, but outside of Hunter/Prey we never really saw the effect on him.
    Just as there are some things Lois may never understand about Clark there are things Diana could never understand about him either. Wonder Woman's life and experiences are not equivalent to Superman's. Clark did share many of his feelings about his death with Lois, by the way. Here's an example:



    Superman would often talk to Lois about what was going on in his hero life, and she was almost always helpful when he had to make difficult decisions.

    That's the kind of thing Diana brings to the table. This isn't to undercut Lois at all; theirs is one of the great love stories. Together, they share what it is to be human. With Diana, they share what it is to be gods.
    While I believe having a comrade in arms is valuable and it's definitely something Diana brings to the relationship, which sort of love story do you believe complements Superman's mythological themes the most: a relationship with a god or a relationship with a human?

  5. #320
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverYoung8 View Post
    That's the kind of thing Diana brings to the table. This isn't to undercut Lois at all; theirs is one of the great love stories. Together, they share what it is to be human. With Diana, they share what it is to be gods.
    There really isn't anything to undercut, anyways. Right here, in the New 52, Superman and Wonder Woman are together. However meaningful it will end up being will be easier to determine once it was wrapped up. But, as to what she's bringing to the table: she's there for him.

    There is no doubt in my mind that Clark will be with Lois at some point, but we're simply not there yet. Right now, it's about Superman and Wonder Woman, sharing themselves with each other.
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  6. #321
    Silly beyond belief Sillia's Avatar
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    One of the things that got me thinking about the Superman/WW pairing was two of my friends. They're both doctors, and they are both married to each other. Now... I don't know how it is in other places, but being a doctor, especially one in residency/fellowship is a pretty difficult time. They often work over 100 hours a week, they have both been through extremely difficult trials in school and in real life, and often have to deal with the consequences of holding other peoples' lives in their hands on a daily basis. This sort of thing can generate a lot of stress. A statistically significant percentage of doctors end up marrying other doctors, far more than most other professions. I can understand why they do - as my friends explain it, it's because noone else really understands what it is they have to go through, or the things they've been through. You can tell people stories about it, but there's a pretty significant divide between sympathizing with someone who doesn't know what it's like and someone who does. I can see something like this being the basis of Superman and WW's relationship.

  7. #322
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    That's actually a really good analogy. I know quite a few people in med school, it's a pretty good real world approximate of how tiring being a superhero might/would be.

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Many cops and soldiers are also happily married because they are able to find spouses who are capable of demonstrating empathy. As a trained counselor, I help adolescents cope with painful feelings and experiences that I have never personally experienced. One doesn't have to endure all of the same things in life to be a source of support, comfort, and strength.

    Obviously one doesn't have to endure everything to give comfort to the other; but when Superman is stuffing Darkseid into the Source Wall, or dealing with 5th Dimensional demons/imps, can Lois relate to any of that? Sure, she can tell him "you did your best", or "You stopped him! You saved us all!" or "You can't be everywhere"...but can her mind truly comprehend what he's talking about? If he fights Blaze or Neron at the figurative gates of Hell, what kind of support can she give that WW can't?


    John Adams and Abigail Adams are one of my all time favorite historical figures. He was a politician while she was simply a highly educated wife and mother. Abigail didn't have to argue at the Continental Congress or defend British troops for their role in a massacre for her to provide John with the wisdom and comfort he required.

    And this is where Clark & Lois work so great together. If Clark is trying hard to nail a corrupt politician, or if he writes a novel that doesn't sell, or if he has to bury his father...these are things Lois can relate to. Things she can offer support & strength for. Obviously there are things she can help him with in his Superman career, but I'm talking things on a cosmic or mythological scale. He fails to save a hostage at a bank heist, he can talk to Lois. He fails to save the lives on a distant planet that Mongul annihilates, there's no way Lois can comprehend that. She can listen, and be supportive, but she can't comprehend it any more than you or I could comprehend a nuclear physicist ranting about his bad day at the office.



    Just as there are some things Lois may never understand about Clark there are things Diana could never understand about him either.

    Of course. Like I said, I wanted to take nothing away from the Lois & Clark dynamic. Diana would be completely lost, under most writers anyway, when Clark loses his human parents who don't get to come back. Or when Conduit targets friends / family. Or why Clark would prefer to be called Clark (again, speaking old DCU. DCnU is difficult to pull examples from because we've hardly seen Lois comparatively).

    Wonder Woman's life and experiences are not equivalent to Superman's.

    Never said they were. But she's been dead, he's been dead. Both have been to Apokolips. Saved the Multiverse together. etc.

    Clark did share many of his feelings about his death with Lois, by the way. Here's an example:



    That's actually pretty cool, I've never seen that. What's it from? Is that the 'Day of Doom' mini?

    And not to take away from that, but it still amounts to nothing more than "you did your best, you need to put it behind you." Lois can't comprehend what it is to die. And when I say share feelings about it, I literally mean feelings; Diana is someone who can comprehend the literal feeling of death coming upon you. I've never seen him tell Lois about that, besides the standard "it's cold, dark."


    Superman would often talk to Lois about what was going on in his hero life, and she was almost always helpful when he had to make difficult decisions.

    Sure she was, to a point. About the things she could comprehend. Here's an example: on the way to Bruce's funeral (S/B issue), he tells her how she shouldn't come because it's a heroes-only gathering. What does Lois say in response? (paraphrasing) "I understand honey. Oh! You forgot your glasses." Clark replies "No, I didn't." Some things are just out of her wheelhouse, and that's okay. Nothing wrong with it, and they'll be together again someday anyway.

    While I believe having a comrade in arms is valuable and it's definitely something Diana brings to the relationship, which sort of love story do you believe complements Superman's mythological themes the most: a relationship with a god or a relationship with a human?

    In the grand scheme of things, the relationship with Lois, of course. The mythic tale of the god falling in love with a human is a classic. And as I said, theirs is one of the great love stories. Notice that I didn't call the SM/WW relationship a love story. But Superman is young; his parents are gone. And even 5 years in, it's pretty obvious he's still trying to find his place in the world. It's only natural that he'd latch onto someone with whom he can talk to, relate to. This is what WW brings. Superman at the end of Old DCU didn't need these things (although, as late as Infinite Crisis, even Lois was scared that he would and was jealous of WW & even Lana). Superman of now apparently does.
    Replies in bold above. Sorry for poor formatting, but I'm on my mobile.

    I honestly don't have a horse in this race. WW, Lois, Obsession, whomever, I don't care as long as the stories are good (and so far, they're not bad IMO). But the question was what she brings, and this is how I interpret it. It's all moot anyway; Johns introduces the concept to set up easy "heartbreaking" conflict for Trinity War that he will undoubtably write himself. Then we'll be back to our regularly scheduled programming.

  9. #324
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverYoung8 View Post
    Obviously one doesn't have to endure everything to give comfort to the other; but when Superman is stuffing Darkseid into the Source Wall, or dealing with 5th Dimensional demons/imps, can Lois relate to any of that? Sure, she can tell him "you did your best", or "You stopped him! You saved us all!" or "You can't be everywhere"...but can her mind truly comprehend what he's talking about? If he fights Blaze or Neron at the figurative gates of Hell, what kind of support can she give that WW can't?
    The concept of dealing with impossible enemies, pushing yourself to the limit mentally and emotionally, and exposing your soul to darkness would not be foreign to someone like Lois whose Darkseid is a fascist warlord, whose Mxyzptlk is a hacker who regularly causes havoc, and whose Neron is the child rapist who has repeatedly escaped capture. The scale may be different but the emotions are not.

    And this is where Clark & Lois work so great together. If Clark is trying hard to nail a corrupt politician, or if he writes a novel that doesn't sell, or if he has to bury his father...these are things Lois can relate to. Things she can offer support & strength for. Obviously there are things she can help him with in his Superman career, but I'm talking things on a cosmic or mythological scale. He fails to save a hostage at a bank heist, he can talk to Lois. He fails to save the lives on a distant planet that Mongul annihilates, there's no way Lois can comprehend that. She can listen, and be supportive, but she can't comprehend it any more than you or I could comprehend a nuclear physicist ranting about his bad day at the office.
    From my experience as a counselor, friend, and identical twin, I just don't think emotions work that way. For example, I've run countless therapy groups for grieving teens whose individual experiences have been vastly different yet they have been able to bond and heal by finding strength in each other. Most of the time, the key is simply to give someone a chance to tell their story without judgment. Sharing identical experiences is rarely ever what matters. As an identical twin, my sister and I were very much alike and shared very similar experiences. But it wasn't until we started doing things independently with people who were not entirely like us that we were able to truly grow and mature. Similarity does matter so much as finding someone who complements you.

    Just as there are some things Lois may never understand about Clark there are things Diana could never understand about him either.

    That's actually pretty cool, I've never seen that. What's it from? Is that the 'Day of Doom' mini?
    Yes.

    And not to take away from that, but it still amounts to nothing more than "you did your best, you need to put it behind you." Lois can't comprehend what it is to die. And when I say share feelings about it, I literally mean feelings; Diana is someone who can comprehend the literal feeling of death coming upon you. I've never seen him tell Lois about that, besides the standard "it's cold, dark."
    There's more to the story besides that one page. And I disagree that Lois can't comprehend what it is like to have a near death experience. She nearly died in Action Comics #12, for example.

    Sure she was, to a point. About the things she could comprehend. Here's an example: on the way to Bruce's funeral (S/B issue), he tells her how she shouldn't come because it's a heroes-only gathering. What does Lois say in response? (paraphrasing) "I understand honey. Oh! You forgot your glasses." Clark replies "No, I didn't." Some things are just out of her wheelhouse, and that's okay. Nothing wrong with it, and they'll be together again someday anyway.
    The idea that husbands and wives are 100 percent in tune with their spouses 100 percent of the time is absurd. I watch a show on NBC called Parenthood, and right now one character (Adam) is dealing with the fact that his wife (Kristina) has breast cancer. In this week's episode, Kristina lost her hair. Adam, in an effort to be thoughtful, bought his wife a wig. But Kristina interpreted the gift as her husband's way of saying she wasn't attractive to him anymore. They argued, they made up, and they understood each other in the end. Why? Because they love each other enough to know that misunderstandings happen, and that the most important thing is to stop and listen.

    In the grand scheme of things, the relationship with Lois, of course. The mythic tale of the god falling in love with a human is a classic. And as I said, theirs is one of the great love stories. Notice that I didn't call the SM/WW relationship a love story. But Superman is young; his parents are gone. And even 5 years in, it's pretty obvious he's still trying to find his place in the world. It's only natural that he'd latch onto someone with whom he can talk to, relate to. This is what WW brings. Superman at the end of Old DCU didn't need these things (although, as late as Infinite Crisis, even Lois was scared that he would and was jealous of WW & even Lana). Superman of now apparently does.
    I agree. I believe a Superman and Wonder Woman romance works best as a storytelling device -- a point in a greater journey.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    The concept of dealing with impossible enemies, pushing yourself to the limit mentally and emotionally, and exposing your soul to darkness would not be foreign to someone like Lois whose Darkseid is a fascist warlord, whose Mxyzptlk is a hacker who regularly causes havoc, and whose Neron is the child rapist who has repeatedly escaped capture. The scale may be different but the emotions are not.



    From my experience as a counselor, friend, and identical twin, I just don't think emotions work that way. For example, I've run countless therapy groups for grieving teens whose individual experiences have been vastly different yet they have been able to bond and heal by finding strength in each other. Most of the time, the key is simply to give someone a chance to tell their story without judgment. Sharing identical experiences is rarely ever what matters. As an identical twin, my sister and I were very much alike and shared very similar experiences. But it wasn't until we started doing things independently with people who were not entirely like us that we were able to truly grow and mature. Similarity does matter so much as finding someone who complements you.

    Just as there are some things Lois may never understand about Clark there are things Diana could never understand about him either.



    Yes.



    There's more to the story besides that one page. And I disagree that Lois can't comprehend what it is like to have a near death experience. She nearly died in Action Comics #12, for example.



    The idea that husbands and wives are 100 percent in tune with their spouses 100 percent of the time is absurd. I watch a show on NBC called Parenthood, and right now one character (Adam) is dealing with the fact that his wife (Kristina) has breast cancer. In this week's episode, Kristina lost her hair. Adam, in an effort to be thoughtful, bought his wife a wig. But Kristina interpreted the gift as her husband's way of saying she wasn't attractive to him anymore. They argued, they made up, and they understood each other in the end. Why? Because they love each other enough to know that misunderstandings happen, and that the most important thing is to stop and listen.



    I agree. I believe a Superman and Wonder Woman romance works best as a storytelling device -- a point in a greater journey.
    I'm glad we agree on something :-P I think that's a good stopping point as we don't agree on much else & I fear going in circles (I'm sure you hate that as much as I do).

    I do enjoy your knowledge of the character though, even if we don't always agree on themes or interpretations. Thank you for posting the image, and I've now ordered the book. Can't wait to check it out :-)

  11. #326
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverYoung8 View Post
    I'm glad we agree on something :-P I think that's a good stopping point as we don't agree on much else & I fear going in circles (I'm sure you hate that as much as I do).
    Sure, we can stop here. I'd just like to clarify one thing: the argument that Lois can understand what Clark is going through and work through misunderstandings despite their differences can also be applied to Diana. I don't think Diana's status as an Amazon demigoddess would make it impossible for her to understand Clark's more human life experiences. What ultimately matters, I believe, in a successful relationship is finding someone who is both similar and dissimilar; a true complement. For someone like Superman, I wonder if it is more worthwhile for him to find a mate to bond with over being different and being a hero or if it is better for him to find someone who allows him to feel connected to the world from which he often feels alienated and who can offer him a human perspective on his heroism. Perhaps the key is to find someone who helps Superman see his efforts in the never-ending battle in a new and more fulfilling way.

    I do enjoy your knowledge of the character though, even if we don't always agree on themes or interpretations. Thank you for posting the image, and I've now ordered the book. Can't wait to check it out :-)
    Thanks. Enjoy the book!

  12. #327
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    In my opinion Wonder Woman brings a lot of sex to the relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman. As many writers push the idea that Superman is a man of steel and normal women like Lois and Lana are women of tissue paper it is impossible for Superman to have sex with a normal woman. The only way he can have sex with a human is if he is constantly exposed to kryptonite but if he does that he will die. But Wonder Woman is an Amazon princess who was also created by Marston to be a sex loving princess as strong as Superman and so she is capable of having lots of sex with Superman.

  13. #328
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tunneler View Post
    In my opinion Wonder Woman brings a lot of sex to the relationship between Superman and Wonder Woman. As many writers push the idea that Superman is a man of steel and normal women like Lois and Lana are women of tissue paper it is impossible for Superman to have sex with a normal woman. The only way he can have sex with a human is if he is constantly exposed to kryptonite but if he does that he will die. But Wonder Woman is an Amazon princess who was also created by Marston to be a sex loving princess as strong as Superman and so she is capable of having lots of sex with Superman.

    Que Miss Lane in 5.....4.....3.....2.....1.....

  14. #329
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    Good Zod, not the Man of Steel / Woman of Kleenex essay AGAIN.

    Somebody smack ME with Kryptonite & wake me when it's over.

  15. #330
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    haha, classic.

    Still, though I'm sure Clark can contain his strength, so as to not rip normal gals into pieces during sex, he would have to make sure he doesn't lose control during a moment of passion.

    With Diana, he wouldn't even have to worry about that.
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