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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    And we know it's not Diana's fault because...
    Why does someone have to be at fault? we know it iy didn't work out, we don't know why. We also know that Steve and his sister are still angry with Diana over it.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    It is disappointing that Diana is "not dealing or interacting with normal people" in her own book. I realize that assimilating to a new culture can be difficult, but it's been five years. Diana used to have human friends in Steve and Barbara. She lost one to fear and the other to darkness. I believe Wonder Woman's journey -- her personal goal -- should be to overcome her fears and attempt to forge real connections with humanity. Finding a friend in Superman is a nice way of escaping alienation and loneliness but eventually Wonder Woman should be able to have more significant relationships with people outside her hero circle. It would be odd for a character who has an iconic history as an ambassador to isolate herself from those who are different. Superman doesn't seem like the right person to help Wonder Woman get to that place, unfortunately, because he's suffering from the same fears and thus the same alienation.
    First, the stuff about her own title is largely because original WW's reason for leaving Paradise Island are so tied to WW2 that all attempts to update them make them more abstract. Azzarello has her as a sort of self appointed ombudsman between human's and Gods because she is neither (I like this approach). With the alternate life as Clark Kent, Superman has a different experience of being there but not belonging.

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Ok so all this talk about Wonder Woman not tell Superman everything about her past--maybe most of it has already been known to the team. I mean Wonder Woman isn't a shy girl and in Action comics #10 the JL shows up and one of the comments that gets thrown out is that "Wonder Woman's met Zeus". She had to have told them that.

    Then in JL, during the graves arc, we have Hal grilling Superman on how the whole team knows little more than what they see when it comes to Superman and that he talks very little. It taks a voucher from Batman to convince Hal for the most part.

    Then in a resent issue Wonder Woman remarks that she don't really know anything about Superman to witch he says "we'll let's change that". Now we're back to where we started.

    Maybe Superman's simply just been the one who NEEDS to open up like this (his past and what not).

    Not saying Wonder Woman is done opening up but that it's just Superman's turn now because he's never done it with anyone else aside from Batman at this point. This might be why Johns has been so in your face with the fact that Superman was a bit more stand offish with his team.
    To me, this is a case of Superman being Superman. He's friendly and comforting and easy to be around, easy to love, but he's hard to know. Batman you can figure out in 5 minutes. Superman you could know him for 50 years and not really know him. That's one of the complexities that makes him so fascinating a character. For some people that makes him hard to relate to but to me that makes him more intriguing.
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  3. #303
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    I'm just going off of what the read. Hal told Superman that the team knows very lettle about him--in fact they knew literally everyone else's secret ID's aside from his till Cyborg sorta told them. Hal says that Superman seems like a nice guy and when he talks he says the right things, but that's it. To me that really just says that Superman is by natuer is a nice person and easy to like I guess but that doesn't mean they know him.

    That instance happend 4 years ago (new 52 time) and in the present it can be assumed that the team now knows more about him like his secret ID but that sounds like that's it along with some rudimentary stuff.

    Sounds like he only really talks to Batman and Cyborg (they seem to have a cool little trio going)

    I just think Wonder Woman was more open with the team from the start given how bold and bombastic she was at the start and the fact that she has no other ID.

    Just seems like Superman is finally opening up if you ask me.

  4. #304
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I'm just going off of what the read. Hal told Superman that the team knows very lettle about him--in fact they knew literally everyone else's secret ID's aside from his till Cyborg sorta told them. Hal says that Superman seems like a nice guy and when he talks he says the right things, but that's it. To me that really just says that Superman is by natuer is a nice person and easy to like I guess but that doesn't mean they know him.

    That instance happend 4 years ago (new 52 time) and in the present it can be assumed that the team now knows more about him like his secret ID but that sounds like that's it along with some rudimentary stuff.

    Sounds like he only really talks to Batman and Cyborg (they seem to have a cool little trio going)

    I just think Wonder Woman was more open with the team from the start given how bold and bombastic she was at the start and the fact that she has no other ID.

    Just seems like Superman is finally opening up if you ask me.
    He is, and that's in character for him, IMO.
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  5. #305
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostinFandom View Post
    Why does someone have to be at fault? we know it iy didn't work out, we don't know why. We also know that Steve and his sister are still angry with Diana over it.
    I'm not trying to assign blame. I was wondering why it was so easy to conclude Steve was the guilty party in the relationship.

    First, the stuff about her own title is largely because original WW's reason for leaving Paradise Island are so tied to WW2 that all attempts to update them make them more abstract. Azzarello has her as a sort of self appointed ombudsman between human's and Gods because she is neither (I like this approach). With the alternate life as Clark Kent, Superman has a different experience of being there but not belonging.
    As a self-appointed ombudsman between humans and gods, shouldn't Wonder Woman be attempting to build bridges between the two groups? And, if that's the case, why not start with her own life? How can Diana link the two worlds together if she fears connecting with humans? As someone who should be attempting to build trust, she should be someone who demonstrates it. Why is it that Lois Lane can see that an Atlantean who saved her life means humans and heroes no harm, but Wonder Woman remains cautious and mistrustful? Azzarello's Wonder Woman says she loves everyone, but that love remains woefully abstract. She is loyal and will fiercely protect those she cares about but stops short at opening her heart to new people. Yes, Wonder Woman's life recently has been marred by betrayals and loss. Nonetheless, it seems odd to me that these things would have left her so fearful, closed off, and hopeless that she can't even open her heart a tiny bit with someone like Clark Kent.
    Last edited by misslane38; 01-01-2013 at 02:21 PM.

  6. #306
    Needs more lesbian RandomFalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    As a self-appointed ombudsman between humans and gods, shouldn't Wonder Woman be attempting to build bridges between the two groups? And, if that's the case, why not start with her own life? How can Diana link the two worlds together if she fears connecting with humans? As someone who should be attempting to build trust, she should be someone who demonstrates it. Why is it that Lois Lane can see that an Atlantean who saved her life means humans and heroes no harm, but Wonder Woman remains cautious and mistrustful? Azzarello's Wonder Woman says she loves everyone, but that love remains woefully abstract. She is loyal and will fiercely protect those she cares about but stops short at opening her heart to new people. Yes, Wonder Woman's life recently has been marred by betrayals and loss. Nonetheless, it seems odd to me that these things would have left her so fearful, closed off, and hopeless that she can't even open her heart a tiny bit with someone like Clark Kent.
    Well in her own title she doesn't at all fear making connections with humans. If she did then she and Zola wouldn't be friends. Diana could, especially now that Zola has had the baby, just dump her somewhere safe and carry on what's she's doing without her. But she doesn't. She's bringing Zola with her because she knows that it's important to Zola to be part of saving her baby. Diana listens to Zola's wants and needs and then acts on them. We see in issue #11 that Diana agrees that Zola should be allowed to use her own doctor because she understands that Zola craves some normalcy and control over her life. She talks about her own problems with Zola (issue #4) and listens to Zola's advice, and spends an entire day wandering around London with her (issue #5 - and in civilian clothes no less, weird that she worked that out on her own). Diana makes more of a connection with Zola than she does with Lennox who is her own brother. She didn't have to be Zola's friend (she doesn't really have to protect her at all) she could have remained aloof, but she didn't, she makes that connection and calls her friend and also seems happy enough to welcome Zola into her family.

    She doesn't remain cautious and mistrustful in her own title; if anything she's far too trusting and usually assumes the best in people rather than the worst. The only time she thought the worst she turned out to be wrong (and tbh that's still up in the air). And her trust pays off.

    Her loving everyone also plays a much larger part in her own book. If she didn't she wouldn't have been able to save Hades with her love, she wouldn't have been able to makes those connections so well with Zola, she wouldn't be able to forge new bonds with Siracca, and she wouldn’t be able to show such compassion to Hera, the woman (since she's now human) who murdered her mother.

    Johns just has a very different idea of what WW should be and where he wants to take the character, it's just infuriating that his take is so contradictory to what Azzarello's is.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandomFalls View Post
    Well in her own title she doesn't at all fear making connections with humans. If she did then she and Zola wouldn't be friends. Diana could, especially now that Zola has had the baby, just dump her somewhere safe and carry on what's she's doing without her. But she doesn't. She's bringing Zola with her because she knows that it's important to Zola to be part of saving her baby. Diana listens to Zola's wants and needs and then acts on them. We see in issue #11 that Diana agrees that Zola should be allowed to use her own doctor because she understands that Zola craves some normalcy and control over her life. She talks about her own problems with Zola (issue #4) and listens to Zola's advice, and spends an entire day wandering around London with her (issue #5 - and in civilian clothes no less, weird that she worked that out on her own). Diana makes more of a connection with Zola than she does with Lennox who is her own brother. She didn't have to be Zola's friend (she doesn't really have to protect her at all) she could have remained aloof, but she didn't, she makes that connection and calls her friend and also seems happy enough to welcome Zola into her family.

    She doesn't remain cautious and mistrustful in her own title; if anything she's far too trusting and usually assumes the best in people rather than the worst. The only time she thought the worst she turned out to be wrong (and tbh that's still up in the air). And her trust pays off.

    Her loving everyone also plays a much larger part in her own book. If she didn't she wouldn't have been able to save Hades with her love, she wouldn't have been able to makes those connections so well with Zola, she wouldn't be able to forge new bonds with Siracca, and she wouldn’t be able to show such compassion to Hera, the woman (since she's now human) who murdered her mother.

    Johns just has a very different idea of what WW should be and where he wants to take the character, it's just infuriating that his take is so contradictory to what Azzarello's is.
    Must admit that loving everyone business felt like such a load of baloney. Out of the blue and nothing to back it up so far. Also let her say she loves everyone when she holds down a job, pays bills and really mucks about with us lesser people.

  8. #308

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Fournier View Post
    Good work!

    With everything that Wonder Woman can offer to Superman on the list provided here, I'm curious to see what's going to be used.

    So far, in Justice League #15, it looks to me like not much as WW seems more like a sidekick. He's telling her what to do. She's just nodding and following his lead.

    Even her [demi] goddess status was told to him off panel like it isn't as important as him showing on panel his Smallville backstory.

    And call me paranoid but when there's a big page of them running together to handle a threat, guess who's bigger than the other one instead of choosing a better angle to promote them as equal?
    I don't you're being paranoid. Rather it's recognizing what I believe is the unintended consequence of DC romantically pairing Superman and Wonder Woman. The fact is that Superman is a bigger cultural icon that Wonder Woman, and as a result everything gets filtered through him, not the other way around. Notice it's Wonder Woman whose character is now being defined through her relationship with Superman while Superman gets to stay exactly the same. And how he's the one acting as a mentor and how their relationship is essentially defined by his rules, not hers. Even though they are supposed to be on equal footing, Superman is the more dominant figure in the pairing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't get where the sidekick nonsense is coming from in the first place. For the brief time since their situation has gone romantic, when in costume on the job, Wonder Woman has not once deferred to Superman. And in terms of their lone date thus far...well I don't even know how one plays a "sidekick" on a date.
    In terms of the stories, they're indeed teammates and partners. But in terms of the aesthetics, Wonder Woman might as well be "Superwoman" the way things have played out thus far. After all, look how the media first reported the news of Superman and Wonder Woman becoming an item.
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  9. #309
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The mass media is completely irrelevant. They have no bearing on the stories. Hanging on their interpretation of presenting the news and attributing it to those actually telling the tales is not at all fair. How, inside the actual pages where it actually matters, has this come across as turning WW into "Superwoman"?. Because she's accepted a date with him and dares to be interested in his past? Why is it that any character who dares to court Wonder Woman is interpreted as some sort of slap in the face to her? Because it happens all the time. Whether its Steve, Trevor Barnes, Nemesis, Superman...there's always something to get offended over.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 01-02-2013 at 06:39 PM.

  10. #310
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The mass media is completely irrelevant. They have no bearing on the stories. Hanging on their interpretation of presenting the news and attributing it to those actually telling the tales is not at all fair. How, inside the actual pages where it actually matters, has this come across as turning WW into "Superwoman"?. Because she's accepted a date with him and dares to be interested in his past? Why is it that any character who dares to court Wonder Woman is interpreted as some sort of slap in the face to her? Because it happens all the time. Whether its Steve, Trevor Barnes, Nemesis, Superman...there's always something to get offended over.
    It's the imbalance. It's great that Wonder Woman is interested in getting to know more about Superman's past. But why didn't Clark encourage Diana to open up about her past? Also, why is it that the process of getting to know each other was initiated at a low point for Diana? Wonder Woman has been subjected to multiple losses and betrayals recently so she is often left vulnerable, confused, and afraid. And, rather than help Diana through her particular personal issues, it has been decided that getting to know Clark and how he handles suffering and stress will provide the comfort and answers Wonder Woman needs.

    Broken because a friend was nearly killed by a villain? A kiss from Superman will make the pain fade. Losing faith in your instincts and your belief that there is good in the world? Just remember that Superman holds onto Smallville. Need to find a way to unplug? Just wear a pair of glasses. Wonder Woman's personal crises are being used as an opportunity to showcase Superman. Clark isn't just helping Diana to trust him by sharing his past; he's sharing his past as a means of giving her his answers to her problems. Wonder Woman seems to be learning to trust herself by learning to trust Superman.

  11. #311
    Hopeful Writer Darkspellmaster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    It's the imbalance. It's great that Wonder Woman is interested in getting to know more about Superman's past. But why didn't Clark encourage Diana to open up about her past? Also, why is it that the process of getting to know each other was initiated at a low point for Diana? Wonder Woman has been subjected to multiple losses and betrayals recently so she is often left vulnerable, confused, and afraid. And, rather than help Diana through her particular personal issues, it has been decided that getting to know Clark and how he handles suffering and stress will provide the comfort and answers Wonder Woman needs.

    Broken because a friend was nearly killed by a villain? A kiss from Superman will make the pain fade. Losing faith in your instincts and your belief that there is good in the world? Just remember that Superman holds onto Smallville. Need to find a way to unplug? Just wear a pair of glasses. Wonder Woman's personal crises are being used as an opportunity to showcase Superman. Clark isn't just helping Diana to trust him by sharing his past; he's sharing his past as a means of giving her his answers to her problems. Wonder Woman seems to be learning to trust herself by learning to trust Superman.
    I think sadly one of the main reasons that is is because no one's really communicating how to do WW the right way between the two creative teams. I have a feeling that Azzarello might be holding back on info, or on the opposite end Johns is not asking him about how to write out the character given that her story seems to be vastly different then the normal situation that Diana is is. Oddly I think this is a way for Johns to show what the Kent's taught him and maybe something of his past to readers to entice them to pick up the Superman comics. Using Diana as a sounding board seems the easiest answer to get from A to B without really getting to heady. Would be far more interesting to me if Diana looked at the glasses and said, "The way I unplug is to go listen to a punk concert." Or something, but I do do think that this whole things seems suspect in a way.

    As to what could be brought by Wonder Woman, well there is the power of the gods as back up in some cases. One could argue understanding different view points in reagards to things around the world. I think everyone pretty much said what I was going to say about what she would or could emotionally bring.

    But that does bring up a question. So Lets say Clark does find out about the slave issues. Wouldn't he, given his standard now get rather upset with Diana over that? Could that cause a riff later on? Then there's the issues of Lana Lang (is she still around?) and possible Lori (the mermaid, which would be an interesting thing for Diana to deal with given the differences in their personalities) as a triangle person, since apparent Lois can't be, for the future (becuase you know that romances in serialization must have some form of conflict, if it's not a "We can't be together because of X" problem, than it's going to be another person in their lives)?

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    It's the imbalance. It's great that Wonder Woman is interested in getting to know more about Superman's past. But why didn't Clark encourage Diana to open up about her past? Also, why is it that the process of getting to know each other was initiated at a low point for Diana? Wonder Woman has been subjected to multiple losses and betrayals recently so she is often left vulnerable, confused, and afraid. And, rather than help Diana through her particular personal issues, it has been decided that getting to know Clark and how he handles suffering and stress will provide the comfort and answers Wonder Woman needs.

    Broken because a friend was nearly killed by a villain? A kiss from Superman will make the pain fade. Losing faith in your instincts and your belief that there is good in the world? Just remember that Superman holds onto Smallville. Need to find a way to unplug? Just wear a pair of glasses. Wonder Woman's personal crises are being used as an opportunity to showcase Superman. Clark isn't just helping Diana to trust him by sharing his past; he's sharing his past as a means of giving her his answers to her problems. Wonder Woman seems to be learning to trust herself by learning to trust Superman.
    You making all this an issue over one date. Twenty four hours. Yeah coutships and relationships play out in one date.

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspellmaster View Post
    I think sadly one of the main reasons that is is because no one's really communicating how to do WW the right way between the two creative teams. I have a feeling that Azzarello might be holding back on info, or on the opposite end Johns is not asking him about how to write out the character given that her story seems to be vastly different then the normal situation that Diana is is. Oddly I think this is a way for Johns to show what the Kent's taught him and maybe something of his past to readers to entice them to pick up the Superman comics. Using Diana as a sounding board seems the easiest answer to get from A to B without really getting to heady. Would be far more interesting to me if Diana looked at the glasses and said, "The way I unplug is to go listen to a punk concert." Or something, but I do do think that this whole things seems suspect in a way.

    As to what could be brought by Wonder Woman, well there is the power of the gods as back up in some cases. One could argue understanding different view points in reagards to things around the world. I think everyone pretty much said what I was going to say about what she would or could emotionally bring.

    But that does bring up a question. So Lets say Clark does find out about the slave issues. Wouldn't he, given his standard now get rather upset with Diana over that? Could that cause a riff later on? Then there's the issues of Lana Lang (is she still around?) and possible Lori (the mermaid, which would be an interesting thing for Diana to deal with given the differences in their personalities) as a triangle person, since apparent Lois can't be, for the future (becuase you know that romances in serialization must have some form of conflict, if it's not a "We can't be together because of X" problem, than it's going to be another person in their lives)?
    What does the slave issue have to do with her and blaming her? Is Superman responsible for what he could not affect before he was born?

    Clark has often shown while in one relationship he can actually give himself to that relationship. Triangles are lazy and cliched.

    Azzarello's WW to be honest, I am wondering how many of those changes will stick after he goes. But Azzarello seems not to care about WW's history. On the whole. Johns is still trying to play and update them. Until we can see those changes of WW influence the wider DCU, I am not sure how it will affect the character. She's gotten some new powers for example, who knows if they are going to be used in the DCU.She barely even flies in her own book even though she got the power of flight.Azzarello is world building and who knows what's next. Johns probably doesn't. It's like when Morrison was building Action. Perez didn't know what was happening.

    But end of the day Johns has things to work with. WW has a history and she should not only be about Gods. Geoff is telling her story of her arrival in the world and her relationships etc because Azzarello in interviews has never really said he had interest in that. He is focused on the mythology side.

    If the Superman and JL writers are willing to take the slack and write her in those books then that fine for now. Azzarello will not stay indefintely and the Gods plotting can't be dragged on and on. Look at WW as just fleshing out one aspect of her story. JL another.

  14. #314
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thepenguin View Post
    You making all this an issue over one date. Twenty four hours. Yeah coutships and relationships play out in one date.
    I clearly mentioned more than one date. I listed three separate instances, including the date, that have negatively impacted my view of the relationship. Also? I'm not making any statements about how I believe the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship will be written henceforth and always. I made specific comments about the imbalance of their initial romantic interactions. So far, it seems Wonder Woman has been broken down to give Superman a chance to build her back up.

  15. #315
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    I'm actually going to be serious and respond to the post.

    It's a relationship of necessity. Both have been lonely for most of their lives. Neither have been very lucky in love and when they were there is always the element of protecting that person not only from Villains but from themselves since the people they love are human and could be hurt by the slightest wrong touch.

    I think they feel since both lead similar lives and are both super human that they could let down there guard and just let go. There may not be actually love there but it may be all they have to go with right now. So they both bring the same thing to the table broken hearts and a need to be loved.
    Last edited by Lexrules; 01-03-2013 at 09:44 AM.

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