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  1. #286
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    There isn't a strong female fanbase. More than there used to be, and the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned, but superhero comics are simply never going to be mainly targeted toward a strong female readership. It will always skew more toward a male fanbase. Where the pretentiousness comes in is the idea that there's something wrong with that. A target audience is a target audience, and that target audience will always be mainly young males. There's no right or wrong there on a moral level. Its the same as guys who are into soap operas (yes, I used to watch Days of Our Lives). Male fans exist, but it doesn't change that those shows are targeted toward women and there's nothing wrong with that either.

    I'm all for good characterization of women but when it comes to depth of page and who's drawn bigger I just think it gets silly.
    There's a difference between being female friendly and female targeted though. I don't think the majority of men reading DC comics really need to see a female character be oversexualized or be weaker than a male superhero. These things are not essential to them at all and I'm willing to say that they would all enjoy a well written female character. While comics don't need to target women, you're losing quite a lot of potential when you chase them off due to the slack writing of the females. Nobody is asking for Wonder Woman to start doing YouTube Make Up tutorials on the side or start talking about her favorite tampon brands, they just want to make sure that she is equal after she has gone through a load of mistreatment.

    There are a lot of male fans (including myself) who lose out when female characters are written poorly. Aren't men still the target audience for these female lead comics? They don't go buy these comics to see fanfiction level quality writing. It is not essential for a female character to be written a lessor. It's not about making it female targeted but having it be female friendly where male and female fans of Wonder Woman can enjoy her in Justice League.

    Like Misslane said, Superman being in front and Wonder Woman in the back was representative of their current relationship. There is no major outrage. People are just pointing out if the relationship stays like it is, Superman will still be doing all the work while Wonder Woman just sits there. I think everybody knows well that this is way too early in the relationship to make anything definite and that the relationship could completely change in the next issue. There is the possibility out there though that Superman will still keep giving Diana "help" while she barely feels invested at all. He takes her to his childhood home, he teaches her about secret identities, and then he takes her out to restaurant. What does Wonder Woman do in response? "Cool. This secret identity thing actually works!"

  2. #287
    Senior Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    There is no major outrage.
    How many pages does this thread have to hit before the outrage qualifies as "major"?

  3. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    There isn't a strong female fanbase. More than there used to be, and the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned, but superhero comics are simply never going to be mainly targeted toward a strong female readership. It will always skew more toward a male fanbase. Where the pretentiousness comes in is the idea that there's something wrong with that. A target audience is a target audience, and that target audience will always be mainly young males. There's no right or wrong there on a moral level. Its the same as guys who are into soap operas (yes, I used to watch Days of Our Lives). Male fans exist, but it doesn't change that those shows are targeted toward women and there's nothing wrong with that either.

    I'm all for good characterization of women but when it comes to depth of page and who's drawn bigger I just think it gets silly.
    Well said (oh, The Young & The Restless fan here )

  4. #289
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    How many pages does this thread have to hit before the outrage qualifies as "major"?
    It can hit any amount of pages and it still won't qualify as outrage. People are just discussing it. Major outrage would be every comic book website reporting the inequality in the relationship. This is one forum thread on one forum. And I'm pretty sure half this thread wasn't even about this issue, it was about someone making sexist jokes about Wonder Woman, not the writing in Justice League. There can be plenty of discussion without it being outrage. You want major outrage, you go look up the Catwoman #1 controversy. This definitely isn't anywhere close to the same level.

  5. #290
    French-Canadian Frank Fournier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm all for good characterization of women but when it comes to depth of page and who's drawn bigger I just think it gets silly.
    I learned about visual symbolism in an Arts class in high school. Placement of stuff in artworks can be done willingly or by accident. Either to help your eyes reading the drawing/painting better or to focus on what's important or for other reasons...



    Let's see, just for fun, what would happen if Diana decides it's her turn to let Clark know more about her on panel:

    PARADISE ISLAND.

    (WW) I bought you here because I wanted you to meet my family that live around.

    (Sup) Where are they? There's nothing else but empty buildings and...

    (WW) And those snakes are my sisters. This is why I'm Wonder Woman.

    After some explanations...

    (Sup) Because your mother had an extra-marital affair with Zeus?

    (WW) The usual story with Hera. When my mother came up with a fairy tale of sculpting me from clay, or when they were all lying to me all my life, it was to protect me and to avoid fighting the queen of the gods.

    (Sup) And this is where you grew up?

    (WW) It's where they were calling me names like "clay" or sending me on dangerous quests like stealing Harpies' eggs for my birthday. Where they taught me how life was about using your fighting skills to strike back harder if somebody punches you.

    (Sup) Can I meet your mother?

    (WW) She became a statue made of clay. Thanks Hera. (Pause) There's an Amazon tradition you need to know before we go on together. If we think of making babies and if it's a boy, our boy needs to be traded for weapons. He needs to be a slave working for Hephaestus. I need you to remember.

    (Sup) @.@ It's... I don't know what to say.

    Last edited by Frank Fournier; 12-31-2012 at 01:07 PM.
    ~ One thousand apologies if I'm using broken English. ~

  6. #291
    Glitter and Gold AlfredIslas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Fournier View Post
    I learned about visual symbolism in an Arts class in high school. Placement of stuff in artworks can be done willingly or by accident. Either to help your eyes reading the drawing/painting better or to focus on what's important or for other reasons...



    Let's see, just for fun, what would happen if Diana decides it's her turn to let Clark know more about her on panel:

    PARADISE ISLAND.

    (WW) I bought you here because I wanted you to meet my family that live around.

    (Sup) Where are they? There's nothing else but empty buildings and...

    (WW) And those snakes are my sisters. This is why I'm Wonder Woman.

    After some explanations...

    (Sup) Because your mother had an extra-marital affair with Zeus?

    (WW) The usual story with Hera. When my mother came up with a fairy tale of sculpting me from clay, or when they were all lying to me all my life, it was to protect me and to avoid fighting the queen of the gods.

    (Sup) And this is where you grew up?

    (WW) It's where they were calling me names like "clay" or sending me on dangerous quests like stealing Harpies' eggs for my birthday. Where they taught me how life was about using your fighting skills to strike back harder if somebody punches you.

    (Sup) Can I meet your mother?

    (WW) She became a statue made of clay. Thanks Hera. (Pause) There's an Amazon tradition you need to know before we go on together. If we think of making babies and if it's a boy, our boy needs to be traded for weapons. He needs to be a slave working for Hephaestus. I need you to remember.

    (Sup) @.@ It's... I don't know what to say.

    I'd love for Wonder Woman to be as emotionally invested in this relationship as Superman is. I mean, if they're gonna shove this relationship down our throats, they could at least attempt to make it seem like it'll work. He's literally giving his all and she barely responds at all.

  7. #292
    French-Canadian Frank Fournier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman Priime View Post
    LOL, it seems that any WW board you go to, drama ensues. Seen it at the old DC boards, Comic Bloc, and now here.
    I saw drama on EVERY message board. And I remember you eating pop corn when there's drama anyway.
    Last edited by Frank Fournier; 12-31-2012 at 03:27 PM.
    ~ One thousand apologies if I'm using broken English. ~

  8. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    I'd love for Wonder Woman to be as emotionally invested in this relationship as Superman is. I mean, if they're gonna shove this relationship down our throats, they could at least attempt to make it seem like it'll work. He's literally giving his all and she barely responds at all.
    Yes, do you generally get emotional investment on one date? Is that what you do when you go on a date. I'd run a mile from personally with anyone with these crazy expectations. People are different. Who says she has to open up now?Are you aware some people don't open up and let it all out on a first date? Some people need time to trust because maybe they were messed with and their trust abused in the past? But generally if you show someone like this that you trust them with your secrets they might just might...open up to you in time?

    Honestly, you people don't want to read. You want to prejudge and speculate. And some well...their agendas are clear. It's to chase everything down with the sm/ww tag despite having no investment in it other than to try to argue clois is better.
    Last edited by thepenguin; 12-31-2012 at 04:42 PM.

  9. #294
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    I'd love for Wonder Woman to be as emotionally invested in this relationship as Superman is. I mean, if they're gonna shove this relationship down our throats, they could at least attempt to make it seem like it'll work. He's literally giving his all and she barely responds at all.
    You mean she didn't kiss him twice? She wasn't laughing and giddy having a great time in the restaurant before the wave hit? How do you get barely responsive from any of that?

  10. #295
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    I feel like part of the cause for these arguments is that we know how Clark is in a Romantic relationship, including the mostly unrequited Clois, but we have little idea how Diana is. Azzarello hasn't addressed it (yet), and the start and end of her relationship with Steve Trevor happened off page (and in the aftermath she is given the brunt of the blame for whatever went wrong). Her reactions are harder to read, or more likely feel new.

  11. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Fournier View Post
    I saw drama on EVERY message board. And I remember you eating pop corn when there's drama anyway.

    LOL, you remember that?

  12. #297
    Senior Member lariatofhestia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LostinFandom View Post
    I feel like part of the cause for these arguments is that we know how Clark is in a Romantic relationship, including the mostly unrequited Clois, but we have little idea how Diana is. Azzarello hasn't addressed it (yet), and the start and end of her relationship with Steve Trevor happened off page (and in the aftermath she is given the brunt of the blame for whatever went wrong). Her reactions are harder to read, or more likely feel new.
    Going on what we have been presented by Azzarello as well, Diana's life is hard. She lost her entire family. Who she thought they were was a lie. Yeah, she's is a good hero,protecting people but she is ALONE. She is in London, sleeping alone, has no friends all the time we see her there. She has no real ties to normal people in Azzarello's title other than Zola who came to her. Why did she go to London when she debuted in the US? To run away? Be alone? Because I see no life involving work or friends. She happens to be rich and strolls around in nice clothes and no one knows who she is. It's like there is no WW operating in that world and if she does, no one sees what she is doing judging by their reactions to what went on the bridge with the centaurs. In JL she was new to the world, Steve dated her as Wonder Woman and the press helped kill the relationship in as much as Steve's impatience and blaming it's failure on her (douche) . Her trust abused by Barbara Minerva. So yes, Diana is not going to be spilling her guts all over the place in one date. Trust is a key issue for her. That's why the people's complaints after one date and page space is idiotic. If anything the way Diana has been presened in JL...it makes sense the plotting. And it is to show Clark feels he can open up to her so he does. The first time we have seen him do so. It is a huge moment for him to be this honest based on how his life has been full of avoiding the truth. She wanted to know who he was. He has done so. For Diana it clearly is going to take a little longer and Clark has shown he can get what she might be feeling.

    So for me, I don't think Azzarello has done anything more to show Diana is adjusted to our world. She's not dealing or interacting with normal people at all. She's fighting and wrangling with Gods. You get she's brave and she kicks ass and she has compassion etc for these egotistical lot but she shown that from the time she showned up in JL. That has always been part of her. There is nothing much about what she wants to or needs in any personal way as a young woman.

  13. #298
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lariatofhestia View Post
    Steve dated her as Wonder Woman and the press helped kill the relationship in as much as Steve's impatience and blaming it's failure on her (douche).
    And we know it's not Diana's fault because...

    So yes, Diana is not going to be spilling her guts all over the place in one date. Trust is a key issue for her. That's why the people's complaints after one date and page space is idiotic. If anything the way Diana has been presened in JL...it makes sense the plotting. And it is to show Clark feels he can open up to her so he does. The first time we have seen him do so. It is a huge moment for him to be this honest based on how his life has been full of avoiding the truth. She wanted to know who he was. He has done so. For Diana it clearly is going to take a little longer and Clark has shown he can get what she might be feeling.
    That's not the complaint, lariaofhestia. I'm not unhappy with the scene because Diana didn't open up to Clark about her entire life. I'm unhappy with the scene because in order for Clark to make the comment he did about Diana's extended family, the information must have been revealed to him at some point prior to the date. What they were both talking about was already common knowledge, so why couldn't have Diana been the one to talk about her own life? Diana told Clark she didn't think she could trust him because she didn't really know him. Clark then proceeded to share a lot of himself, which isn't to say Diana must have reciprocated in kind, but a tiny demonstration that his efforts could be rewarded with some movement towards trust would have made the scene more logical and balanced.

    So for me, I don't think Azzarello has done anything more to show Diana is adjusted to our world. She's not dealing or interacting with normal people at all. She's fighting and wrangling with Gods. You get she's brave and she kicks ass and she has compassion etc for these egotistical lot but she shown that from the time she showned up in JL. That has always been part of her. There is nothing much about what she wants to or needs in any personal way as a young woman.
    It is disappointing that Diana is "not dealing or interacting with normal people" in her own book. I realize that assimilating to a new culture can be difficult, but it's been five years. Diana used to have human friends in Steve and Barbara. She lost one to fear and the other to darkness. I believe Wonder Woman's journey -- her personal goal -- should be to overcome her fears and attempt to forge real connections with humanity. Finding a friend in Superman is a nice way of escaping alienation and loneliness but eventually Wonder Woman should be able to have more significant relationships with people outside her hero circle. It would be odd for a character who has an iconic history as an ambassador to isolate herself from those who are different. Superman doesn't seem like the right person to help Wonder Woman get to that place, unfortunately, because he's suffering from the same fears and thus the same alienation.

  14. #299
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Ok so all this talk about Wonder Woman not tell Superman everything about her past--maybe most of it has already been known to the team. I mean Wonder Woman isn't a shy girl and in Action comics #10 the JL shows up and one of the comments that gets thrown out is that "Wonder Woman's met Zeus". She had to have told them that.

    Then in JL, during the graves arc, we have Hal grilling Superman on how the whole team knows little more than what they see when it comes to Superman and that he talks very little. It taks a voucher from Batman to convince Hal for the most part.

    Then in a resent issue Wonder Woman remarks that she don't really know anything about Superman to witch he says "we'll let's change that". Now we're back to where we started.

    Maybe Superman's simply just been the one who NEEDS to open up like this (his past and what not).

    Not saying Wonder Woman is done opening up but that it's just Superman's turn now because he's never done it with anyone else aside from Batman at this point. This might be why Johns has been so in your face with the fact that Superman was a bit more stand offish with his team.

  15. #300
    Junior Member Drokki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    And we know it's not Diana's fault because...



    That's not the complaint, lariaofhestia. I'm not unhappy with the scene because Diana didn't open up to Clark about her entire life. I'm unhappy with the scene because in order for Clark to make the comment he did about Diana's extended family, the information must have been revealed to him at some point prior to the date. What they were both talking about was already common knowledge, so why couldn't have Diana been the one to talk about her own life? Diana told Clark she didn't think she could trust him because she didn't really know him. Clark then proceeded to share a lot of himself, which isn't to say Diana must have reciprocated in kind, but a tiny demonstration that his efforts could be rewarded with some movement towards trust would have made the scene more logical and balanced.



    It is disappointing that Diana is "not dealing or interacting with normal people" in her own book. I realize that assimilating to a new culture can be difficult, but it's been five years. Diana used to have human friends in Steve and Barbara. She lost one to fear and the other to darkness. I believe Wonder Woman's journey -- her personal goal -- should be to overcome her fears and attempt to forge real connections with humanity. Finding a friend in Superman is a nice way of escaping alienation and loneliness but eventually Wonder Woman should be able to have more significant relationships with people outside her hero circle. It would be odd for a character who has an iconic history as an ambassador to isolate herself from those who are different. Superman doesn't seem like the right person to help Wonder Woman get to that place, unfortunately, because he's suffering from the same fears and thus the same alienation.
    yes to all of this.

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