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  1. #271
    I caught you red-handed Wild_Child's Avatar
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    Wonder Woman should teach Superman how to be a gladiator if he loses his powers.

  2. #272
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    LOL, it seems that any WW board you go to, drama ensues. Seen it at the old DC boards, Comic Bloc, and now here.

  3. #273
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    I mean, honestly, people DO need to walk on eggshells. The comic industry isn't even close to satisfying a strong female fanbase. Years of poor treatment do make people think the worst of things when Superman is in the front and Wonder Woman is in the back and when it's shown that Superman is helping her out while she basically sits there. Maybe John will show Wonder Woman as less than a sidekick soon but if it keeps going like it currently is, yes, there will be problems.

    Don't see how it's a stretch at all to think that a comic book writer is possibly sexist.
    There isn't a strong female fanbase. More than there used to be, and the more the merrier as far as I'm concerned, but superhero comics are simply never going to be mainly targeted toward a strong female readership. It will always skew more toward a male fanbase. Where the pretentiousness comes in is the idea that there's something wrong with that. A target audience is a target audience, and that target audience will always be mainly young males. There's no right or wrong there on a moral level. Its the same as guys who are into soap operas (yes, I used to watch Days of Our Lives). Male fans exist, but it doesn't change that those shows are targeted toward women and there's nothing wrong with that either.

    I'm all for good characterization of women but when it comes to depth of page and who's drawn bigger I just think it gets silly.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-31-2012 at 05:18 AM.

  4. #274
    Senior Member lariatofhestia's Avatar
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    When she kicked his face in I am shocked the male readers did not cry misandy? When he was down by the Cheetah where were the fighters for gender equality? I am a WW fan but some WW fans really really nit pick. Now we talking gender issues based on page space? How ridiculous.

    Batman has been giving Clark advice forever and kicking his ass but yet that is a relationship of equals.

    Shall I find some images of Wonder Woman in the front of Superman to show gender inequality. I am sure there are loads of them over the years. Or better yet get some of Batman in front of Superman on a page. I wonder what that one is called?

  5. #275
    Da?!?!?! bobbyraw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lariatofhestia View Post
    When she kicked his face in I am shocked the male readers did not cry misandy? When he was down by the Cheetah where were the fighters for gender equality? I am a WW fan but some WW fans really really nit pick. Now we talking gender issues based on page space? How ridiculous.

    Batman has been giving Clark advice forever and kicking his ass but yet that is a relationship of equals.

    Shall I find some images of Wonder Woman in the front of Superman to show gender inequality. I am sure there are loads of them over the years. Or better yet get some of Batman in front of Superman on a page. I wonder what that one is called?
    Keep it away!!!! The sense burns! Why must you talk sense in a place like this?

  6. #276
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlfredIslas View Post
    Sorry that people want to enjoy superhero comics without their female superhero being nothing but a sex object and sidekick.
    BS! There are simply people that want to prop up a character over another because of their sex. Exactly what you're accusing others of. I haven't seen Wonder Woman do anything for her to have much of what's given to her. Like the character but continuous publication isn't some ticket to stardom. Maybe if she hadn't started out attempting to copy Superman, as Batman did, she might have an easier road of finding her own path. But even her creator decided she was a character in which sex was going to be a huge part of her story. So why cry when the first female heroine involves sex and the female version of a male character now? I guarantee that Catman didn't need to have Catwoman propping him up to have any type of popularity. He did it the old fashion way, earned with quality stories.

  7. #277
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I don't get where the sidekick nonsense is coming from in the first place. For the brief time since their situation has gone romantic, when in costume on the job, Wonder Woman has not once deferred to Superman. And in terms of their lone date thus far...well I don't even know how one plays a "sidekick" on a date.

  8. #278
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lariatofhestia View Post
    Batman has been giving Clark advice forever and kicking his ass but yet that is a relationship of equals.
    Given the amount of time I see guys complaining about the Batgod lecturing or beating up Superman, I do believe many have issues with unequal writing for Superman and Batman.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I'm all for good characterization of women but when it comes to depth of page and who's drawn bigger I just think it gets silly.
    The only problem with size and placement of characters on the page in this instance is that it is reflective of the imbalance in the relationship in other aspects of the story. Superman has been dominating the relationship so far as the supporter, comforter, teacher, and sharer of personal information. From what little I do know about art, however, I do know that size and placement on the page can be meaningful. It can send a message about importance. Why is Superman often drawn as the point in the Trinity Triangle? He's out in front while Batman and Wonder Woman are at his side. Do you think that says something about Superman's importance in comparison to his two teammates?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't get where the sidekick nonsense is coming from in the first place. For the brief time since their situation has gone romantic, when in costume on the job, Wonder Woman has not once deferred to Superman. And in terms of their lone date thus far...well I don't even know how one plays a "sidekick" on a date.
    In a sense, Wonder Woman deferred to Superman when he insisted she accept the League's help handling Cheetah when she wanted to take her on solo. I think one gets the vague sense that Diana is a bit sidekick-like from the fact that Clark has been mixing what reads as superhero training along with the business of getting to know each other. Before the relationship, Wonder Woman was much more independent. Now she's learning how to cope with being a superhero by remembering places like Smallville and unplugging with a disguise that involves glasses. These are the kind of conversations I would hope Superman would have with Supergirl. For a independent character like Wonder Woman, I would like for her to develop and learn these ideas through her own means rather than relying on her boyfriend or a preeminent male hero of the DCU.

  9. #279
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Given the amount of time I see guys complaining about the Batgod lecturing or beating up Superman, I do believe many have issues with unequal writing for Superman and Batman.
    We do, because it's absurd.

    The only problem with size and placement of characters on the page in this instance is that it is reflective of the imbalance in the relationship in other aspects of the story. Superman has been dominating the relationship so far as the supporter, comforter, teacher, and sharer of personal information. From what little I do know about art, however, I do know that size and placement on the page can be meaningful. It can send a message about importance. Why is Superman often drawn as the point in the Trinity Triangle? He's out in front while Batman and Wonder Woman are at his side. Do you think that says something about Superman's importance in comparison to his two teammates?
    Good observations, and I pretty much agree. The Trinity is Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman in that order. Superman is more important than them or any other character in comics. In American pop culture only Mickey Mouse comes close to Superman in terms of importance.

    In a sense, Wonder Woman deferred to Superman when he insisted she accept the League's help handling Cheetah when she wanted to take her on solo. I think one gets the vague sense that Diana is a bit sidekick-like from the fact that Clark has been mixing what reads as superhero training along with the business of getting to know each other. Before the relationship, Wonder Woman was much more independent. Now she's learning how to cope with being a superhero by remembering places like Smallville and unplugging with a disguise that involves glasses. These are the kind of conversations I would hope Superman would have with Supergirl. For a independent character like Wonder Woman, I would like for her to develop and learn these ideas through her own means rather than relying on her boyfriend or a preeminent male hero of the DCU.
    I know she's technically the same character, but the WW in her own book and the WW in the rest of the DCnU seem like two different characters.

    I don't really mind this couple but it needs a good writer to make it work. Geoff Johns is not a good writer.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  10. #280
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I have a hard time seeing the viewpoint that accepting her team's offer to help a personal matter is deferrment. She was accepting and appreciating the team's help, not being told to stand back while they all do the heavy lifting and be happy to do so. She still led the mission.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-31-2012 at 09:18 AM.

  11. #281
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I don't consider accepting her team's offer to help a personal matter as deferrment. She was accepting and appreciating the team's help, not being told to stand back while they all do the heavy lifting and be happy to do so.
    She accepted and appreciated the team's help after she deferred to Superman's judgment. He said he thought she should accept help, so she did.

  12. #282
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    And to me that's just a skewed way to look at one of the few scenes thus far that showed the team acting as friends just to manufacture some sort of offense to be taken on Diana's behalf. I'm no authority of course, people can be bothered by what they want to bother them and there's no necessity to verify it through me, but on a personal level I'll be damned if I can see what's so bad about it.

    And I don't get the impression at all that Superman is tutoring her in superheroics. If in the time he opened up to her and let her get to know him he tried to show her anything, its how he personally unwinds from being a superhero, not how to be one.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-31-2012 at 09:30 AM.

  13. #283
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Sacred, you just have to remember how she thinks. Like if you had a friend that was making a mistake and you advised him against it to which he agreed and accepted your help. In misslane38's world, that means from that moment on he no longer has his own life but lives for you instead. Confers with you on every aspect of it until his death. I'm surprised you don't see that with Superman and Wonder Woman. I mean, she's a woman accepting help from a man. Obviously there's something wrong with her. I think in most human cultures, especially Western ones, that females kill their fathers when they could of age for dare raising them as children

  14. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Fournier View Post
    Good work!

    With everything that Wonder Woman can offer to Superman on the list provided here, I'm curious to see what's going to be used.

    So far, in Justice League #15, it looks to me like not much as WW seems more like a sidekick. He's telling her what to do. She's just nodding and following his lead.

    [Mind you, she's got the same problem in her own book where others tells her what to do because she's always clueless of what's going on.]

    Even her [demi] goddess status was told to him off panel like it isn't as important as him showing on panel his Smallville backstory.

    And call me paranoid but when there's a big page of them running together to handle a threat, guess who's bigger than the other one instead of choosing a better angle to promote them as equal?



    I hope I'm wrong but if I am not, grrr...
    Well before when Superman was all powerful he did not need any sidekick but now that he is jobbing to Vulko of all people he may as well get a sidekick. Now since unlike Batman Superman is neither gay nor a pedophile I guess Wonder Woman is perfect for the job. What do you think?
    Rehire Grant Morrison for Superman.
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  15. #285
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    And to me that's just a skewed way to look at one of the few scenes thus far that showed the team acting as friends just to manufacture some sort of offense to be taken on Diana's behalf. I'm no authority of course, people can be bothered by what they want to bother them and there's no necessity to verify it through me, but on a personal level I'll be damned if I can see what's so bad about it.
    It's bad because it's part of a multi issue run of Diana being written as hotheaded, pessimistic, fearful, vulnerable, and lost. Although it is okay and even a great idea for heroes to act like a team, Diana was right to say that she should be able to handle Cheetah on her own because the League doesn't jump into action every time Superman meets up with one of his minor rogues like Metallo.

    And I don't get the impression at all that Superman is tutoring her in superheroics. If in the time he opened up to her and let her get to know him he tried to show her anything, its how he personally unwinds from being a superhero, not how to be one.
    Clark is showing Diana how to unwind because she apparently needs her boyfriend to tutor her in relaxing and disguises. During the five years she's been in Man's World, you would think Diana would have been capable of figuring out some of that stuff for herself. The things Clark has chosen to reveal about himself have been targeted to meet Diana's personal needs at a given time. And since she has done very little in terms of reciprocating either in personal information or words of wisdom, the relationship appears lopsided.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    Sacred, you just have to remember how she thinks. Like if you had a friend that was making a mistake and you advised him against it to which he agreed and accepted your help. In misslane38's world, that means from that moment on he no longer has his own life but lives for you instead. Confers with you on every aspect of it until his death. I'm surprised you don't see that with Superman and Wonder Woman. I mean, she's a woman accepting help from a man. Obviously there's something wrong with her. I think in most human cultures, especially Western ones, that females kill their fathers when they could of age for dare raising them as children
    First of all, don't put words in my mouth. Second, you're absolutely mischaracterizing my position. I don't have a problem with Diana accepting advice or help as long as it is not a one way street. For as long as this ultimate power couple romance has lasted, Diana has been on the receiving end of much more support and advice than she has been giving to others. It's the overall imbalance that makes instances of deferment, like the Cheetah example, seem part of larger more problematic pattern.

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