What is Wonder Woman bringing on the table for Superman in their relationship?

[Superlad93]

Lois was not made to be marketable beyond Superman.
WW being part of Trinity is again a marketing scheme as GL, Flash, and even Aquaman seems to be more popular.
The real trinity is the World's Finest team of Superman , Batman , and Dcik Grayson Robin. Outside of DC it is Superman, Batman, and Spiderman. WW does not even come close.

I'm not arguing Wonder Woman's popularity relative to anyone but Lois', and with the two as individuals Wonder Woman is more popular. Lois used to have a comic so it's not like DC hasn't thought of marketing her as the title character, but the book is no longer around. Wonder Woman has still had TV shows, comics, animated movies, spin offs (comics), and merchandising.

Lois has not had the same to the same effect. As an singular character she is less popular than Wonder Woman. Lois has never once had anything other than a comic and merch made for her with out Superman.

But yes if you put her in with Superman then you have more popularity, not because Lois is more popular than Wonder Woman but because Superman is.

[misslane38]

I'm not arguing Wonder Woman's popularity relative to anyone but Lois', and with the two as individuals Wonder Woman is more popular. Lois used to have a comic so it's not like DC hasn't thought of marketing her as the title character, but the book is no longer around. Wonder Woman has still had TV shows, comics, animated movies, spin offs (comics), and merchandising.

Lois has not had the same to the same effect. As an singular character she is less popular than Wonder Woman. Lois has never once had anything other than a comic and merch made for her with out Superman.

But yes if you put her in with Superman then you have more popularity, not because Lois is more popular than Wonder Woman but because Superman is.

I don't understand how you are measuring popularity. First of all, you have absolutely no empirical or statistical data to back up your claim that Diana is more popular than Lois. Second, popularity isn't measured solely by comic book titles and merchandise. Lois Lane is popular among many women but those women are not necessarily going to buy comic books or merchandise. Finally, as a Lois Lane fan, I can tell you that it was through Lois that I came to love Superman. You are wrong to assume that anyone who is a fan of Lois is only a fan because of Superman. Sometimes it's the other way around. Finally, I am still mystified at how popularity justifies fictional relationships. According to that logic, as the most popular female character, Diana should be dating the most popular male character, Bruce Wayne.

[super1man]

I'm not arguing Wonder Woman's popularity relative to anyone but Lois', and with the two as individuals Wonder Woman is more popular. Lois used to have a comic so it's not like DC hasn't thought of marketing her as the title character, but the book is no longer around. Wonder Woman has still had TV shows, comics, animated movies, spin offs (comics), and merchandising.

Lois has not had the same to the same effect. As an singular character she is less popular than Wonder Woman. Lois has never once had anything other than a comic and merch made for her with out Superman.

But yes if you put her in with Superman then you have more popularity, not because Lois is more popular than Wonder Woman but because Superman is.

But Lois cannot be marketed outside Superman. She cannot have a show tv or otherwise outside Superman so you cannot use this against her when comparing with WW. I think Steve whatever his name is comes with WW in most media but he is not at all famous. He is a nobody yet Lois Lane is an icon. As you said WW has had multiple media presence so why is Steve whatever not an icon. okay ww is not as popular as Superman so Steve cannot be as populaar as Lois but why is he not a small icon then. THats because WW herself is not that big a deal. Lois is more popular than her.

[Superlad93]

But Lois cannot be marketed outside Superman. She cannot have a show tv or otherwise outside Superman so you cannot use this against her when comparing with WW. I think Steve whatever his name is comes with WW in most media but he is not at all famous. He is a nobody yet Lois Lane is an icon. As you said WW has had multiple media presence so why is Steve whatever not an icon. okay ww is not as popular as Superman so Steve cannot be as populaar as Lois but why is he not a small icon then. THats because WW herself is not that big a deal. Lois is more popular than her.

Steve really isn't used in all of her incarnations because of the idea of Wonder Woman more feminist and possibly lesbian has caught on in more than a few of her incarnations. Steve has turned into an interchangeable part in Wonder Woman's myth so no real wonder why he is so obscure. Also Wonder Woman hardly ever actually stays with Steve in the end. This is also why Vicky Vale from Batman isn't very popular. They don't cling to their title characters like Lois does.

So this then brings us back to the fact that Lois is just with the bigger star and because of that she gains popularity. Wonder Woman on her own is still more popular and recognizable than Lois on her own.

I mean really if I asked you do physically describe Lois you would have like a dozen different inconsistent looks to pick from. I ask you to tell me what Wonder Woman looks like and you'll tell me the same thing every time.

The only thing you could really say to consistently describe(for the most part) Lois is reporter and Superman's girlfriend. To do that you must mention Superman and then we get into his popularity and fame and not hers.

I agree that Lois could be more popular in the sense that Superman is more popular but at that point I'm really just saying the Superman myth is more popular than the Wonder Woman myth.

But again we still don't have little girls and boys dressing up like Lois for a costume party but we see that all the time for Wonder Woman (around the world)

[Superlad93]

I don't understand how you are measuring popularity. First of all, you have absolutely no empirical or statistical data to back up your claim that Diana is more popular than Lois. Second, popularity isn't measured solely by comic book titles and merchandise. Lois Lane is popular among many women but those women are not necessarily going to buy comic books or merchandise. Finally, as a Lois Lane fan, I can tell you that it was through Lois that I came to love Superman. You are wrong to assume that anyone who is a fan of Lois is only a fan because of Superman. Sometimes it's the other way around. Finally, I am still mystified at how popularity justifies fictional relationships. According to that logic, as the most popular female character, Diana should be dating the most popular male character, Bruce Wayne.

Well I didn't say anything about it defining relationships. Also I asked for stats and statistics for the other side of the argument and got none so I then gave facts about Wonder Woman having her own line of this to prove her solo marketability which given the evidence is better than Lois'.

If I'm given facts and statistics to suggest that Lois is more popular than I'd be just fine with that......I'm not really very much interested on the subject of their popularity anyway.

[misslane38]

I mean really if I asked you do physically describe Lois you would have like a dozen different inconsistent looks to pick from. I ask you to tell me what Wonder Woman looks like and you'll tell me the same thing every time.

So your way of judging popularity is whether a character can be described as having a consistent look? You're defining a character based on looks alone? You understand how nonsensical that is, right? Lois Lane's varying looks can actually aid in her popularity because she's been played by many real life women who represent different types of looks; there's one for each type of woman to relate to in addition to her more directly relatable role as a career woman. Basically, Lois Lane has defining qualities that happen not to be as much physical as Wonder Woman's. She is more identified by her attitude and her profession. I think that is something to be celebrated, and it is by many. This young woman, for instance, found her inspiration in Lois Lane.

The only thing you could really say to consistently describe(for the most part) Lois is reporter and Superman's girlfriend. To do that you must mention Superman and then we get into his popularity and fame and not hers. I agree that Lois could be more popular in the sense that Superman is more popular but at that point I'm really just saying the Superman myth is more popular than the Wonder Woman myth.

I honestly don't know what point you're making anymore. Or at least I'm not sure what the purpose is. You're really only making a meta-textual argument, because Wonder Woman's popularity in the real world has no relevance to the actual story being told with characters who are unaware of what goes on in the real world. This is a thread that asks about Wonder Woman can contribute as individual to Superman as an individual within the framework of a romantic relationship intra-textually.

I take it you're trying to say that her greater popularity compared to Lois will contribute more popularity to Superman (a meta-textual argument). But that isn't a given, and you haven't really addressed that. Wonder Woman's popularity, as you've pointed out, is based on what she's done separately from Superman. Not all of the people who like Wonder Woman, or are aware of her, would automatically be interested in the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship. For some Wonder Woman fans, it's a turn off. Conversely, as you've pointed out, Lois and Superman are already popular as a unit. Currently, they're a more popular couple (e.g. EW's Top Fictional Couple in Pop Culture) and will be interpreted again in this summer's Man of Steel that will likely make them even more popular.

But again we still don't have little girls and boys dressing up like Lois for a costume party but we see that all the time for Wonder Woman (around the world)

Again, going on the superficial alone is not the best way to go with this. Young women who dress up in their suits to an interview for a job because Lois' professionalism inspired them or the ladies who ran this fan campaign that got the media's attention have their own unique ways of showing how much they love and appreciate Lois. A dozen of fans of Lois from Smallville wore special T-Shirts to SDCC 2010, which caught the attention of the show's producers. Plus, people do cosplay Lois (seen here). People have also pushed for more of Lois on her own. Al Gough and Miles Millar, who created and produced Smallville, originally wanted to do a Lois Lane television series with no Clark before they pitched a Bruce Wayne and finally a Clark Kent series. Dean Trippe once pitched a "Lois Lane: Girl Reporter" comic book to DC; posts sharing this pitch have received thousands of notes indicating immense interest on Tumblr. But if your standards for a couple are based on popularity and cosplay, then Wonder Woman should be with Batman.

Well I didn't say anything about it defining relationships. Also I asked for stats and statistics for the other side of the argument and got none so I then gave facts about Wonder Woman having her own line of this to prove her solo marketability which given the evidence is better than Lois'.

I find your evidence wanting and your logic nonsensical. What does Wonder Woman's popularity in the real world (the meta-textual world) have to do with what Wonder Woman in her fictional world (the intra-textual world) can contribute from her own knowledge, skills, and experience that will be beneficial to Superman that is on the same level as his helping her with a secret identity? What does popularity have to do with who should be with who? And if it does, shouldn't that mean Batman and Wonder Woman should hook up?

If I'm given facts and statistics to suggest that Lois is more popular than I'd be just fine with that......I'm not really very much interested on the subject of their popularity anyway.

I don't think there are hard statistics to support either woman as most popular, and if you're not really that interested, I think it would be awesome if the subject was dropped in favor of refocusing on Wonder Woman's intratextual character traits and what they can offer Superman.

Those thousands did not help stop the reboot and thousands of fans do not really sell comics. Hundreds of thousands do. Tumblr can have hundreds of thousands reblogs,misslane, so I don't even know how anyone is supposed to take any of this seriously. This is just an example of fans thinking tumblr and messageboards represent the buying public. It is clear they do not. DC has said this. Comic creators have said this. Sales clearly say this. For the thousands whining over the sm/ww ship and hating...there are probably more buying the books so that is why DC are not too bothered pissing your fandom off. And to be fair to them they have Lois in the books, she is just not drooling and chasing Superman or needing saved every five minutes and then there are the Smallville comics etc. So Lois fans need to learn the entire world does not revolve around Lois.

Show me the proof that sales of any comic books have benefited specifically from the introduction of the ultimate power couple into canon. Also, show the the last time Lois was written as a character who needed to be saved a lot or who drooled incessantly over Superman. You seem fixated on a version of the character that hasn't existed outside the pages of the sexist comics of the 1950s and 1960s.

I think you are easily impressed with little snippets that support your own viewpoints while ignoring the fact that the entire show Smallville showcased how his powers (as Superman) would overtake all aspects of his life. From the very start, his abilities affected his friendships and desires to the last episode in which he embraced that nothing in his life would demand more of his attention. Until we see a show about Superman who focuses solely on his journalism at the expense of his superhero duties, I think you should just quit telling us we've seen it already because Smallville was not that show.

What version of Smallville did you watch? There was an entire arc during the final season of the show that explored the issue of whether or not the responsibilities of being a hero would dominate and should dominate Clark's life. The final episode of the show explicitly addressed this issue and determined that Clark would find balance in his life. He was ultimately able to be a superhero and a journalist. Clark does not have to devote his life solely to journalism to prove it is more than a hobby. For over thirty years, Clark has cared about his career in journalism. Saving the world may be his priority, but Clark loves his civilian job and does it well. It's not something he does for fun either. It's a profession that he believes is just as important as being a hero.

Moreover, did you completely miss my larger point that his appreciation for journalism is what attracts him to Lois? Journalism is part of his human life where he gets to express another side of himself that he really enjoys. As the two episodes of Smallville I shared showed, his life is so full of sacrifice, duty, and the supernatural that unplugging with that other side of himself is a treasured and necessary release valve. He doesn't have to engage in the profession himself more than superheroism for him to be attracted to Lois who represents that thing he loves yet has to sacrifice for. Indeed, we already know Lois Lane's role as a reporter is what attracted Clark to her enough to want to date her and to deem her the "most amazing woman."

[Superlad93]

I'm done. I just realized that I've been part of the problem that is the off topic nature of the conversations......and it's a conversation that I care so little about that it's crazy.

So I'm done. Back on to the topic.....whatever that crazy concept is....

[misslane38]

So I'm done. Back on to the topic.....whatever that crazy concept is....

It's really simple: What skills or pearls of wisdom can Wonder Woman offer Superman that are analogous to Clark sharing with the Diana how a dual identity works?

[Neutrino]

Superman and Wonder Woman are both pretty much perfect, which Lois never was (though she wasn't far off), so their relationship is naturally going to be pretty different to the more domestic world that Clark and Lois inhabited (and I preferred). Aside from allowing them both to live more 'super' lives, with more exotic locales for dates and that sort of stuff, I think Wonder Woman can help Superman reconcile his Kryptonian origins with his life on Earth. Since she was raised in a 'foreign' lifestyle among the Amazons, but got to adapt as an adult, she can help Clark through whatever longing he might have for Krypton in a way that Jor-El probably can't, since he never had to live among humans.

What else... pre-Flashpoint I would have said that she can teach Superman a level of compassion for all life that even he couldn't reach, but New 52 Wonder Woman is a warrior, so that's out. There's fighting, of course, but I don't know how much Clark would be willing to learn of the probably lethal Amazon martial arts. Diplomacy? Once again, more of an old Wonder Woman trait than a new one. Bondage and discipline? Okay, I'll just stop here. Usual disclaimer: I haven't read too much of the New 52, so yeah, I'm probably wrong about everything.

[Shadow Skill]

Wonder Woman serving as the third member of the DC trinity and being a superhero with her own television show and comic are reasons why she is a significant pop culture icon. However, I don't think those facts provide any solid proof that Diana is more popular or beloved than Lois Lane. Honestly, I don't think there is any way to prove one character is more popular than the other. Do you have any sources that utilize actual data analysis to back up this idea that Wonder Woman dwarfs Lois in terms of fame and popularity?



I honestly have no idea what this has to do with the topic of this thread or how it relates to what sort of character would be the best mate for Superman/Clark. Love isn't a popularity contest. Even if someone could prove that Wonder Woman was more famous than Lois Lane, her popularity would not serve as definitive proof that Wonder Woman would be just as popular as Superman's primary love interest. There are many fans of Wonder Woman, for example, who do not like or support this ultimate power couple.

Bottom line? I don't understand this grade school logic: Superman and Wonder Woman are a good couple because they are the most popular characters. Are we really going with the cheerleader/quarterback defense on this one? Really?

And what Lois is no better? All she does is pawn off of Superman as his girlfriend and tsundere, since it feels so mightiny to have the man of steel whipped right? She's pretty annoying as well, she can't really doing andthing without Supes as a individual core character.

Wondey has her own world, and despite being in love with Clark, she still has a peerless role with Superman in th heroic universe alongside Batman. She's also a great and interesting person I see Clark hanging out with more than I see with Lois. With Lois, he has to hide and pretend. With Diana, he'll fly with her and maybe speak his mind about anything from villains, farm work, and his power level hell a girlfriend who he can spar with to make him more skilled along as versatile. It would be like Bruce and Clark, only Diana is less cynical and a control freak.

[thepenguin]

I don't understand how you are measuring popularity. First of all, you have absolutely no empirical or statistical data to back up your claim that Diana is more popular than Lois. Second, popularity isn't measured solely by comic book titles and merchandise. Lois Lane is popular among many women but those women are not necessarily going to buy comic books or merchandise. Finally, as a Lois Lane fan, I can tell you that it was through Lois that I came to love Superman. You are wrong to assume that anyone who is a fan of Lois is only a fan because of Superman. Sometimes it's the other way around. Finally, I am still mystified at how popularity justifies fictional relationships. According to that logic, as the most popular female character, Diana should be dating the most popular male character, Bruce Wayne.

What empirical data do you have? Tumblr?

[thepenguin]

It's really simple: What skills or pearls of wisdom can Wonder Woman offer Superman that are analogous to Clark sharing with the Diana how a dual identity works?

How about reading the book? Oh wait...

[super1man]

Steve really isn't used in all of her incarnations because of the idea of Wonder Woman more feminist and possibly lesbian has caught on in more than a few of her incarnations. Steve has turned into an interchangeable part in Wonder Woman's myth so no real wonder why he is so obscure. Also Wonder Woman hardly ever actually stays with Steve in the end. This is also why Vicky Vale from Batman isn't very popular. They don't cling to their title characters like Lois does.

So this then brings us back to the fact that Lois is just with the bigger star and because of that she gains popularity. Wonder Woman on her own is still more popular and recognizable than Lois on her own.

I mean really if I asked you do physically describe Lois you would have like a dozen different inconsistent looks to pick from. I ask you to tell me what Wonder Woman looks like and you'll tell me the same thing every time.

The only thing you could really say to consistently describe(for the most part) Lois is reporter and Superman's girlfriend. To do that you must mention Superman and then we get into his popularity and fame and not hers.

I agree that Lois could be more popular in the sense that Superman is more popular but at that point I'm really just saying the Superman myth is more popular than the Wonder Woman myth.

But again we still don't have little girls and boys dressing up like Lois for a costume party but we see that all the time for Wonder Woman (around the world)

I think I already agreed Lois is not 'visibly recognizable' as she does not have a superhero costume or a symbol, she is popular despite those things. She may be the only one person to be thus recognized in the comics world (Gordon and Pennyworth too but for them you HAVE to take Batman's name to provide a reference, when you say Lois Lane you don't have to say Superman for people to know who she is). That's a feat in itself. Its much easier for WW to be recognized as she wears panties and bras - easy to be famous in. So how can little girl wear a Lois costume when she does not have one. Of course nobody is going to dress as her but her name recognition is greater than that of WW. Imagine how much difficult it would be for WW to be recognizable if she were to wear normal clothes instead of superhero ones , sport no symbol/weapon or anythign that makes her distinct yet Lois is still famous despite these things.

And Lois has been absent in many Superman media like Superman III (Lana was the heroine). Lana once again was the lead in Smallville for 7 seasons (Lois came in fourth but did not star till much later and was not the main heroine until Lana left). I don't believe she was featured in the two Superboy series. Clark as Superboy comics or Superboy and LOSH did not feature her and her appearances in comics is much lower than WW's today. She also was absent from JL and JLU cartoons so you cannot say Steve was not present in some media forms, he was there is the most popular WW series. Yes that is not much compared to Loi's appearances but you have to remember WW herself has not appeared in much in comparision to Superman. So proportionally I think Lois's appearanc ein SUperman media and Steve's in WW would be same.

[nightrider]

What empirical data do you have? Tumblr?

Instagram.

[slvn]

It's really simple: What skills or pearls of wisdom can Wonder Woman offer Superman that are analogous to Clark sharing with the Diana how a dual identity works?

For starters, she could teach him about how a secret identity might not work. That is, she may be able to see the downside of a secret ID. He's quick to say that having a secret identity is not "hiding," but she may, after some time for reflection, feel that it's not that simple.

I haven't been following the Superman books (other than Action) but if Superman and Supergirl are in serious disagreement about H'el, maybe Wonder Woman could offer some insight on how to value family without endorsing everything family members do.

He acknowledges in 15 that he might not get time off from his superhero identity either if he had an extended family like hers. What if a time comes when he has to send Clark on an extended vacation to deal with his Superman responsibilities? She could teach him how to be a superhero 24/7.

In a way, they seem to reverse gender expectations; she's like a workaholic who can't "unplug" from work (in this case, heroics,), and he's a sensitive soul who reminds her that there are important matters outside the "office" (so to speak).

She could probably train him how to fight. Self-training has been enough for him so far, but suppose he were faced with an army of veteran warriors from Daxam, for example. He might need to couple his raw power with more highly developed fighting skills.

She could teach him to cope with the vagaries of the supernatural. JLD 1 suggested that he's a lot more uncomfortable with the world of magic than she is.