What is Wonder Woman bringing on the table for Superman in their relationship?

[Aquacatlungfish]

If something is sexist and I call it sexist, while others deny that it is, my taking it seriously and to the "extreme" is justified. Unless of course you think sexism is an non-serious thing.



What? I've justified nothing. Pointing out sexism and defending myself against the accusation that I should view sexism as non-serious, or that what Lexrules said was in any way okay, is a righteous thing to do. Even in small ways and in minor places like this, sexism should not be treated as a joke or treated lightly. It's sad that you can identify what Lexrules said as sexist, yet you defend it and continue to be the one to cause problems by repeatedly mocking and invalidating my very valid concern. If you were to simply agree that sexist jokes are in bad taste, and therefore should be avoided, and stop making light of my concerns it would end the discussion.

No you don't realise that Lexrules is trolling you and you took him seriously. Women being forced to wear burkas, or not allowed to go outside without a man, or shut up in Church, or politicians talking about "legitamate rape" are serious problems, someone going online making crapy jokes about Wonder Woman sucking Superman's penis is not a serious issue.before you porked him his comments weren't sexist at all, just childish jokes about sex, not sexist jokes. The exception is Lexrule's dumb comment about covering yourself up in public, which is a problem and the only one that should be taken seriously. Other than that it isn't an issue and you're easily offended by a guy who talks about WW's boobs. As for the justification part, I meant that this argument was so petty and unintentionally funny that it caused me so much LOLs that the while relationship was justified just to see it. An exaggerration to be sure but this whole flame war on this forum has been pretty funny.

[Kurosawa]

Well if there is any dumping I hope she kicks his whiny " I can't live without Lois to define me and give me purpose and show me how care for humanity" ass to the curb. Honestly, Diana, you could do so much better than a man (according to the gospel of cloisdom) who can only care for the earth because of this one woman to show him the way, who he's been lying to most for his incarnations btw.

In Supes defense, Lois was a psycho bitch in most of those old stories as well. But she had nothing on her sister who did all kinds of ruthless crap to poor Jimmy.

Those old stories were soooo crazy but funny.

[misslane38]

WW has always been a bit scholarly even as a great warrior. Just because AZzarello is only showing her fighting I don't think she only sees value in swords. Her culture is derived from the Greeks and would revere learning. I think she would very much appreciate Clark's job in writing and exposing truth tc and I am sure as she was last canon, she can share intellectually with Clark and talk to him quite a bit about philosophy and ethics etc . In fact I can see her challenging him in things.

Okay, but if stretching Diana's Greek wisdom into a substitute for Clark and Lois' obvious years of experiences in the trenches in the actual profession of journalism is considered reasonable by your standards then surely by those same standards Lois could discuss and challenge Clark with regards to superhero matters because she grew up among heroes and leaders from the army. For me it's not just a matter of being intellectually capable of engaging with the ideas Clark might concern himself with as a journalist. It's about the process of writing. Doctors and politicians are both typically brilliant, yet while they might all appreciate helping people and serving others that commonality doesn't necessarily lend itself to as specific a commonality as two people who literally engage in the same profession as Clark and Lois do. Consequently, if one can grant Diana the capacity to relate to Clark's journalism, using such a broad notion as Greek wisdom, then surely one should also grant Lois the capacity to relate to Clark's heroism given her exposure to heroes her whole life.

Being a warrior she might be more practical while he might be a mite more idealistic and that combo worked for his birth parents.

Maybe. I don't feel I've seen enough of Superman and Wonder Woman yet to tell whether one is more idealistic than the other or more practical than the other. In theory, since Superman is from a world of science the wider cosmos and Diana a world of magic and myth, those different backgrounds could have an effect on who they are and how they act, but I'm not sure I've seen that translate beyond the types of foes they battle. What I do know from the Superman book is that the lesson Clark learned from George Taylor about putting the people ahead of the story is one that he put into action, inspiring Lois, and along the way their friendly rivalry as journalists grew into something they both valued a great deal. For example, in Superman #2 Lois said, "I may have made headlines with Superman, but your stories about the homeless, the displaced, the forgotten--the passion you showed when you wrote about them--that's the kind of writing that always kept me at the top of my game." Illustrates that while Lois' writing focused on scrutinizing the powerful to keep those abusing it in check and those wielding it righteously in the public's good graces, he was writing about the powerless to give them a voice.

Superman's birth parents were described as follows, "My mother Lara was every bit my father's equal in the lab. It is what made them such natural partners. The difference being that she learned both arts and sciences at the Kryptonian Military Academy." However, as much as that description could admittedly fit Superman and Wonder Woman, it also has some relevance to Lois. For one, she and Clark are equals in the bullpen, which is work that isn't physical but intellectual much like lab work scientists do. Reverse the genders, and Clark is the one who had skill in two fields--journalism and superheroism. Plus, Grant Morrison had Clark describe Lois Lane's writing (before he ever met her) as the equivalent of a martial arts display. We would be wise not to focus on one set of parents, however; for if parental similarity is of importance in determining compatibility the other sets of parents deserve attention as well. Hippolyta and Zeus didn't have a typical relationship, and I wouldn't exactly describe Superman as like Zeus beyond an abstract idea of godhood (even then Superman isn't really a god). I don't know much about Lois Lane's parents other than she had a strict, army general for a father and he remarried at some point. Then there's Jonathan and Martha Kent. Sadly, we know very little about their backgrounds. What we do know is that it was they who primarily modeled a loving romantic relationship for Clark and it was their nurturing that guided Clark's natural gifts towards his pursuits in the present. They were two humans who didn't know if they could ever have children; yet they hoped. They then took a chance on someone who came to them so strangely and could be so different. For Clark's human heart to seek out another human's (and it did; hence falling for Lois) and to risk for his happiness -- to face everyday fears for those he loves just as his parents surely worried about exposure of their son to those less accepting -- would be so poetic and so fitting as far as I'm concerned.

She also loves family and lost hers recently and can empathize with him losing his.

She loves family? That's true, yes, but that's also very generic. Lois loves her family, as do lots of women. So the loss of Diana's family seems like the more relevant part of your statement. Since Clark lost his human parents about 10 years ago and his birth parents 27 years ago, while Diana's loss is more fresh, it seems more logical to suggest his empathy for her loss would be immediately helpful. That said, I get your point that, generally speaking, the experience of loss is something they can share. It's hard to say what Lois Lane's experience of loss has been. Her mother seems to be dead, which is something Johns' Secret Origin and Smallville featured, but I'm not sure beyond that. She certainly hasn't lost a whole world like Clark did Krypton or Diana did the Amazons. I'm just not sure it's the same type of loss. For Clark it's the abstract loss of something he never knew whereas Diana lost something integral to her upbringing. She lost her Smallville. Lois, on the other hand, never had a home. She was always the outsider wherever she was because, as an army brat, she would have constantly been on the move every few years. This means never getting too close to people because you'll just have to leave them anyway and constantly assimilating to new environments.

And the new 52 has gone to pains to show how Clark is tethered to humanity because he sees this place as his home and he was brought up as Clark Kent as human and he loves his fellow man.

Yes and no. He is connected to his own humanity and appreciates humanity, but he still feels estranged from it. He has not yet been able to replicate the intimate, loving bond he shared with his human parents growing up in Kansas.

Part 1 of 2

[misslane38]

Part 2 of 2

]He however is different. His fellow man and friends don't know who he is and what he can do because he is an alien. No amount of journalism will make him feel less isolated because he has to keep secrets.

That's the thing, though. Clark doesn't have to keep secrets. Secret keeping's old justification -- the threat of villains attacking loved ones -- was based on a narrative framework that cast the primary relationship as that between Superman and Lois Lane and not Clark Kent and Lois Lane. Of course, if Superman were to publicly declare his love for Lois Lane, especially as a wife, she'd be a target. But that's why a secret identity exists. Clark Kent can love Lois Lane and no one would care. Thus, not forging more intimate connections with humans who have earned a special and trusted place in Clark's life based on the fear of the possibility that the secret identity would become jeopardized amounts to little more than an illogical excuse. He doesn't fear rejection from those he loves because of his differences either, as far as I can tell. Therefore, he is making his differences an issue when, in truth, they are not one. The truth is, his decision to withhold intimacy from those he cares about is an act of cynical self-preservation. Fortunately, Superman can, and has, revealed his secret to humans, and he ultimately does that out of love for them. Ultimately, he does what his parents did and takes a chance to share his life completely with someone different than he is and someone who could be taken from him at any moment because he chooses to live in hope rather than fear.

Good relationships are built on truth and trust and with WW he has that from day one.

Both are true, and I do think that helps the relationship work in theory and in the short term, but the above is not a story. Storytelling is about a journey to overcome obstacles to achieve personal growth. Most hero's journeys (monomyths) and love stories feature a central conflict which can be internal, external, or both. What you're describing with Wonder Woman is she's Superman's easy way out. With her, he gets to avoid the question and the risks involved with going after what he really wanted, and that is to not be estranged from humanity and to be with the human Lois Lane. In The Hobbit, Bilbo is initially reluctant to go on an adventure with Gandalf and the dwarves because he likes the safety of his home. Gandalf reminds him that some of his forbears had grit and that he has often spoke of a yearning to explore. Instead of doing what was safe and what was easy, Bilbo does what every great hero does in a myth, and that is he chooses to set out on an unknown and potentially perilous path. For the Superman and Wonder Woman relationship to have been started so soon in the relaunch screams that the powers that be are not viewing this relationship as one that has the kind of drama and mileage that other relationships might.

The conflicts and guilt are less with Diana too and she also brings in him a level of confidence I haven't seen in him for a while and that alone is a cause for celebration from me.

I don't think he seems that different overall. If you mean within a romantic context, I respectfully disagree. I can point to loads of scenes from Smallville, Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman, and Pre-Flashpoint comics where Clark is quite bold.

With Lois I see mooning and whining and it's not exactly a good look for him. Plus he has to lie to her like everyone else so I have yet to see what different she makes to him in that aspect.

Do you mean you see Clark mooning in the current New 52 universe? Well, of course, he is. He can't have Lois. Remember, he's jealous of Lois' boyfriend even after kissing Diana? Yeah, not having what you want can be upsetting. Lois doesn't make him that way, though. He is responsible for his own behavior. This is apparently how Clark acts in this type of situation. If Diana had denied him, he may have acted the same way. In other words, whether he gets what he wants and not what he wants is what matters. And, as I explained before, Clark doesn't have "to lie" to Lois. On Smallville, Clark finding the courage to reveal his secret to those he loved was used for dramatic effect and to indicate when Clark had reached a certain level of maturity.

The fact that there are currently obstacles to a relationship with Lois doesn't mean she isn't the one for him and won't be. It means those obstacles are elements the writers can use to generate a long term story with pay off--to craft a story that says something about embracing differences, having hope, and shirking any notion of separate but equal. You know, something meaningful. It's not handled it perfectly, but the BBC series Merlin relies on the idea of Merlin's secret magic. His long term secrecy and partial isolation (he shares his secret with his "wise old man" boss, Gaius) provides a lot of juicy emotional conflict and is building to a reveal that is so essential to his hero's journey and so cathartic that it's been withheld until the end. The distance between he and Lois that Clark is contriving right now is an obstacle to be overcome. Such an obstacle formed the centerpiece of Harry Potter's development in Order of the Phoenix, for instance, when he was reluctant to share the burden of his quest as "the Chosen One" with his friends and peers:

Harry: It doesn't matter anymore, because I don't want to play anymore. All it does is make you care too much. The more you care the more you have to lose. You maybe it's just best to...
Hermione: To what?
Harry: To go it alone.

Oh, I don't think Supes or WW think of themselves as superior or above humans necessarily, but the fact is that they are. Neither Steve nor Lois can compare to Diana or Kal.

If you're only comparing them based on things that don't matter like physical invulnerability and super-abilities. You know, superficial stuff. Do you think a firefighter is superior to, say, a school teacher just because one saves lives from burning buildings while the others cultivates the knowledge and character of the next generation? How can Superman be superior to humans like Lois and Steve in the ways that matter if he credits his own human upbringing for his values and heroism? Superman and Wonder Woman are not superior to Steve and Lois aside from the physical and the shallow. Not even Clark thinks so (from Superman #14), "No mater how many times he lays eyes on her...he’s always taken aback at the realization that Lois Lane is the most amazing woman he has ever met."

[misslane38]

No you don't realise that Lexrules is trolling you and you took him seriously. Women being forced to wear burkas, or not allowed to go outside without a man, or shut up in Church, or politicians talking about "legitamate rape" are serious problems, someone going online making crapy jokes about Wonder Woman sucking Superman's penis is not a serious issue.before you porked him his comments weren't sexist at all, just childish jokes about sex, not sexist jokes. The exception is Lexrule's dumb comment about covering yourself up in public, which is a problem and the only one that should be taken seriously. Other than that it isn't an issue and you're easily offended by a guy who talks about WW's boobs. As for the justification part, I meant that this argument was so petty and unintentionally funny that it caused me so much LOLs that the while relationship was justified just to see it. An exaggerration to be sure but this whole flame war on this forum has been pretty funny.

I don't care if someone is trolling. Sexism shouldn't be used for trolling and there is no harm in pointing out when something is sexist. Just agreeing with me that what he said (all of it because reducing Diana to her bust size is objectifying and is sexist) was in bad taste and then moving on seems like it would have been a much more constructive approach than laughing at me and picking on me for finding something offensive that was meant to be offensive. If you'll notice, you're the one who kept the topic going. You responded to me before Lexrules even responded to me. You're the one who perpetuated it as an issue, and by antagonizing me, you encouraged others to actually defend even the comment you say was definitely sexist (the covering up one). If things got out of hand as a result of my actions, I do apologize, but I wish you'd acknowledge your less than positive role in the matter.

Well if there is any dumping I hope she kicks his whiny " I can't live without Lois to define me and give me purpose and show me how care for humanity" ass to the curb. Honestly, Diana, you could do so much better than a man (according to the gospel of cloisdom) who can only care for the earth because of this one woman to show him the way, who he's been lying to most for his incarnations btw.

Clois fans don't use those specific arguments. You've exaggerated and perverted what they do say into strawmen so you can ridicule, and that is very unfortunate. I personally agree with Sailor Moon. A break up that is amiable and doesn't make either party look bad would be my preference as well.

[neverender]

Maybe when she comes into the Superman book we shall see.

One flashback panel was enough thanks.

[nightrider]

Thank you Miss Lane and Lex Rules, I haven't laughed that hard in a while!

^Jesus Christ this thread is the best.

Im laughing so hard. The Superman forum has to be the best forum on the site.

People put passion into their posts here.

lol indeed.
some posters literally overreact over every single thing on the internet.

[nightrider]

WW gets no respect, I wish DC took her serious. Characters like BlackWidow, Storm and Buffy are becoming more popular than her

Do show me the Black Widow, Storm and Buffy comics that is selling over 40,000 copies every month.

[Kymeric]

Well to be fair, if she was 400 lbs or her head was snakes I doubt superman would be interested in her. Being desirable is a necessary part of being desirable. Or everyone would be a chubby chaser.

[Aquacatlungfish]

I don't care if someone is trolling. Sexism shouldn't be used for trolling and there is no harm in pointing out when something is sexist. Just agreeing with me that what he said (all of it because reducing Diana to her bust size is objectifying and is sexist) was in bad taste and then moving on seems like it would have been a much more constructive approach than laughing at me and picking on me for finding something offensive that was meant to be offensive. If you'll notice, you're the one who kept the topic going. You responded to me before Lexrules even responded to me. You're the one who perpetuated it as an issue, and by antagonizing me, you encouraged others to actually defend even the comment you say was definitely sexist (the covering up one). If things got out of hand as a result of my actions, I do apologize, but I wish you'd acknowledge your less than positive role in the matter.

I have reduced the appeal of men to their physical appearance several times. I called "Fred" (the youtuber) and Justin Bieber and loads of other model turned actors talentless hacks who should disappear off the face of the planet and their popularity only based on their looks regularly. Does that make me sexist? Lexrules would have replied to you even if I didn't reply to you first. Lexrules just used classic sexist tropes and you shouldn't have responded to such childish remarks. But whatever, this conversation has gone on for too long.

[Lokimaru]

Well if there is any dumping I hope she kicks his whiny " I can't live without Lois to define me and give me purpose and show me how care for humanity" ass to the curb. Honestly, Diana, you could do so much better than a man (according to the gospel of cloisdom) who can only care for the earth because of this one woman to show him the way, who he's been lying to most for his incarnations btw.

This is a completely different Superman, would you also blame him for Superman Prime's action? This is a different guy so all the posting of pictures of the old superman or talk of what that Superman did or who he loved is complete irrelavent. This guy is not THAT guy, This guy lost his Parents in highschool, THAT guy's Parents lived well into his thirties. That alone is going to cause differences, so to think of this guy as business as usual is selling him short. His Kypton is different, his attitude is different, and yes his current love is different. So why not try to get to know this guy and let the old guy retire in peace (with HIS Lois).

[AlfredIslas]

I have reduced the appeal of men to their physical appearance several times. I called "Fred" (the youtuber) and Justin Bieber and loads of other model turned actors talentless hacks who should disappear off the face of the planet and their popularity only based on their looks regularly. Does that make me sexist? Lexrules would have replied to you even if I didn't reply to you first. Lexrules just used classic sexist tropes and you shouldn't have responded to such childish remarks. But whatever, this conversation has gone on for too long.

Most of us have been thinking this since Page 1.

[killercroc]

This is a completely different Superman, would you also blame him for Superman Prime's action? This is a different guy so all the posting of pictures of the old superman or talk of what that Superman did or who he loved is complete irrelavent. This guy is not THAT guy, This guy lost his Parents in highschool, THAT guy's Parents lived well into his thirties. That alone is going to cause differences, so to think of this guy as business as usual is selling him short. His Kypton is different, his attitude is different, and yes his current love is different. So why not try to get to know this guy and let the old guy retire in peace (with HIS Lois).

I agree he is totally different. Tell this to the broken record who ruins every sm/ww thread with the argument that he must be the same guy and therefore old rules applies..

[Fate's Faith]

Journalism is not a "hobby" to Clark in the New 52. Action Comics and Lobdell's recent Superman issues emphasize how much Clark values reporting. It being only a hobby, to use your words, is thus not "how it is" at all. Superman/Clark doesn't have just one job or one identity he considers more "real" than the other. Both his hero and human life are of equal value to him. That doesn't mean he gets to engage with his human pursuits as much as he'd like, but he has been shown to care deeply about the power of journalism. It is as much a part of him as being a superhero. It also represents his human life. If things like his human job, human friends, etc. just become hobbies and amusements to him rather than things he holds with equal esteem and affection, then I believe it only validates the concern that with Wonder Woman as a girlfriend, there is a tendency for Superman to be distanced from humanity.

I equate to a hobby because he drops it as soon as Superman is needed. I think he would love to devote more time to it. He uses his powers in ways that allows him to make up for what he can't devote to it. But at the end of the day, he will never be the reporter when Superman is needed. That's the bad part of his life I think. He loves doing it, why else would he keep doing it if he didn't, yet his responsibility makes it one of the first things he has to sacrifice. That's what is great about having Diana for a girlfriend. When he does have to sacrifice his time as a journalist, he doesn't have to leave her behind as he used to Lois. And like I said, if she wanted to, Wonder Woman could become Diana Prince, reporter. If she wanted to spend that much time with him while Lois will always be the journalist but never Lois Lane, superhero.

I'm not sure I see how this has continuous value. I think it definitely answers the question posed by this thread about what Diana could contribute, but just thinking about this type of contribution long term and it doesn't seem like it has continued relevance. Meaning, once Superman and Wonder Woman train and instruct each other the lesson is over. That takes what? A couple months until mastery occurs. How are skills with weaponry something that has perpetual value to a Superman and Wonder Woman pairing?

No, I don't think its something that will be continuous unless they just enjoy it. But then I don't see the long term between this couple. Its just something that might give the two something to do beyond just flying around kissing.

I do love and enjoy Wonder Woman a great deal but she hasn't had an interesting civilian life in years and that's where you would find what she brings to a relationship. As a person not a hero. I think Steve Trevor fell in love with her because of who she was before Wonder Woman. But it seems since she's become Wonder Woman, that's taken over everything in her life. She doesn't even have Diana Prince to get away from it.

[misslane38]

I have reduced the appeal of men to their physical appearance several times. I called "Fred" (the youtuber) and Justin Bieber and loads of other model turned actors talentless hacks who should disappear off the face of the planet and their popularity only based on their looks regularly. Does that make me sexist? Lexrules would have replied to you even if I didn't reply to you first. Lexrules just used classic sexist tropes and you shouldn't have responded to such childish remarks. But whatever, this conversation has gone on for too long.

Yes, it has gone on for too long because of you. Only you seem to care that I called something tasteless that was tasteless as well as asked that future comments stay on topic and respect the OP's question, which was about what Diana as an individual (not just a body) could contribute to a relationship with Superman that was in the same line as Superman helping her with a dual identity. You see, I made a simple statement and moved the conversation immediately back to the topic. Since there was nothing wrong with what I said -- at least nothing as wrong as Lexrules making a crass, off-topic joke -- then you could have followed your own advice to me (said in the above comment of yours) and let me say my piece and let it be. Instead, you've hounded me throughout this thread perpetuating a conversation about one issue that I was fine leaving at my objection to the comment. If Lexrules had a problem with my reaction, he and I could have discussed the matter by ourselves. So, to preserve this thread, please PM if you want to keep beating this dead horse.

I equate to a hobby because he drops it as soon as Superman is needed. I think he would love to devote more time to it. He uses his powers in ways that allows him to make up for what he can't devote to it. But at the end of the day, he will never be the reporter when Superman is needed. That's the bad part of his life I think. He loves doing it, why else would he keep doing it if he didn't, yet his responsibility makes it one of the first things he has to sacrifice. That's what is great about having Diana for a girlfriend. When he does have to sacrifice his time as a journalist, he doesn't have to leave her behind as he used to Lois. And like I said, if she wanted to, Wonder Woman could become Diana Prince, reporter. If she wanted to spend that much time with him while Lois will always be the journalist but never Lois Lane, superhero.

Just because his duty as Superman requires he sacrifice time with the job he loves (and in prior continuity the woman he loves) doesn't mean he views it as a hobby or that it is a hobby. In the New 52 he sees journalism as a responsibility as well because of the power of words to influence society. Beyond that, I think it's sad to think that couples who have different jobs and can't spend every waking moment together are considered lesser in your eyes. Don't you see? The fact that we see Superman and Lois navigate love and duty is something that helps us appreciate their nobility all the more. It even sends a larger message about heroism and love in general. With Diana removing all conflict from Superman's life as you describe, particularly if she becomes a reporter too, then I feel the story loses a great source of pathos and drama. As an aside, I recommend you watch two episodes of Smallville called "Hex" and "Warrior" written by Bryan Q. Miller, which both illustrate these ideas in a succinct, touching, and entertaining way. They're some of the show's best, honestly.

No, I don't think its something that will be continuous unless they just enjoy it. But then I don't see the long term between this couple. Its just something that might give the two something to do beyond just flying around kissing.

Okay, then.

I do love and enjoy Wonder Woman a great deal but she hasn't had an interesting civilian life in years and that's where you would find what she brings to a relationship. As a person not a hero. I think Steve Trevor fell in love with her because of who she was before Wonder Woman. But it seems since she's become Wonder Woman, that's taken over everything in her life. She doesn't even have Diana Prince to get away from it.

I'd like to see Wonder Woman develop the non-hero side of herself as well.