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  1. #136
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Moon View Post
    I see people talking about how there's no benefit to Superman saleswise here, but is there to Wonder Woman, either? It doesn't seem like her book has jumped up a lot more since they announced the union. I'm pretty sure the only real benefit from either is whatever story Johns is weaving out of it.



    Haha, oh dude, I promise you; the people who tend to be into certain thing, you just would never guess.
    Oh, I know people are way weirder than you ever think they are, but a panel of Diana zipping up a bondage mask and telling Kal the safe word is "Beppo" might be too weird for me.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  2. #137
    The power of the rainbow. jade_nova's Avatar
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    She can suck the bolts off a battleship.
    "Here's to me and here's to you. If we should ever disagree, then here's to me and to hell with you," William O. Astle 1905-2002

    "Damn you, Harlot! Science and I know what we're doing," Reed Richards

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  3. #138
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    Lexrules jokes are lame, unfunny and sexist but your reactions are truly marvelous. Taking an inoffensive crappy joke to an extreme measure is enough to justify starting this crappy relationship.
    If something is sexist and I call it sexist, while others deny that it is, my taking it seriously and to the "extreme" is justified. Unless of course you think sexism is an non-serious thing.

    Ironically starting this "ship" (f**k that word) has been justified by you. Just ignore the troll and he'll go away.
    What? I've justified nothing. Pointing out sexism and defending myself against the accusation that I should view sexism as non-serious, or that what Lexrules said was in any way okay, is a righteous thing to do. Even in small ways and in minor places like this, sexism should not be treated as a joke or treated lightly. It's sad that you can identify what Lexrules said as sexist, yet you defend it and continue to be the one to cause problems by repeatedly mocking and invalidating my very valid concern. If you were to simply agree that sexist jokes are in bad taste, and therefore should be avoided, and stop making light of my concerns it would end the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Ok see I don't understand, you bring up Lois all the time when we're all taking about Wonder Woman and Superman almost as a defense measure or something it seems but what you end up pointing out is that Lois is as good a mate for Superman as Wonder Woman is but in turn that means Wonder Woman is just as good as Lois but just from as different spectrum. [...] other than that human link what does Lois have that makes her the one over Wonder Woman?
    Uh, I wasn't the one to first drag Lois into this conversation. If other people are going to talk about her, then I'll respond. So I am not bringing her up as a defense measure on my part, I am defending her from attacks others initiated. Please be more careful in the future and try not to accuse me of doing something in a conversation until you've traced the history of it. It seems Superman and Wonder Woman advocates feel the need to explain what Diana contributes by comparing her to Lois.

    The only real difference that I feel like I ever see you site is the thematic difference of how Lois better links him to humanity, but what if Superman just wants someone that he's attracted to and that makes it feel like he's not alone in the world? I mean can't both do this for him in their own way? I think so.
    Given that comics are a storytelling medium, the key to storytelling is conflict and drama. With Lois, you have a story. Mark Waid recently spoke about storytelling in an interview: "An idea is not a series, and jokes are not characters […] A story is only a story if (a) it’s about someone (singular or plural) who wants something and (b) something’s in his (or their) way. And it’s a story worth telling only if (c) the reader has reasons to care about (a) and (b)." Since we're talking about a love story or romance, I'm sure you know that many of the greatest romances in literature are ones that involve struggle because there are obstacles to the match that are either internal or external. If you add Joseph Campbell's ideas about heroes' journeys or the monomyth, where the story must lead to a union that brings together the disparate aspects of a hero's universe, then what you have is the ingredients for an epic romance involving a hero. One sees in Man of Steel that the drama in Superman's narrative is acceptance into the human world. Just as humanity must trust him and embrace him despite his differences -- beautifully symbolized in Lois Lane's taking of his hand in front of a group of armed soldiers -- he must have the courage to reach out to humanity. Jonathan and Martha Kent were humans who adopted Kal-El as their own to create a family based on fulfilled hopes. For Superman to make a new family with a human not only makes sense, as his heart was nurtured through his human upbringing, but it also shows that he is willing to take the same risk Ma and Pa Kent did. To love despite fear and difference.

    Moreover, such a love story echoes classic romances like "Beauty and the Beast," which is about seeing beneath the surface and humanizing someone inhuman, or "Pride and Prejudice," which is a story about people from different backgrounds (Austen's stories are often about wealth/class differences) falling in love. Though not always love interests, even Doctor Who traditionally has human female companions. So when I think of Superman and Wonder Woman, I wonder what is the story, what is the struggle, what is poetic about Superman and Wonder Woman? Superman's myth is about his alien/human dichotomy and about power/restraint. A relationship with Wonder Wonder Woman doesn't really address those themes. Now in real life we don't pair up with people based on themes. But Superman, at its essence, is a modern myth. It is in the realm of legends and fairy tales, and as such it is at its best when it follows their conventions. The greats from Grant Morrison to Mark Waid to Elliot S! Maggin and more all identify the romantic relationship with Lois as a key part of Superman's myth. When you change the love interest in a monomyth you essentially change the message of the myth. If the beauty doesn't come to love the beast in "Beauty and the Beast," what is the purpose of that story anymore? If the alien who was adopted by humans, and whose biggest struggle in life is wanting to feel a part of his adopted planet, keeps his distance from humans out of fear and a sense of his own difference, what message does that send?

    Please respond via PM. Regardless of who started it, this thread shouldn't be about Lois. So let's discuss Lois privately and get this thread back on the topic of Wonder Woman. Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    You are pretty much right about this. A human woman no matter how accomplished or impressive pales next to Wonder Woman just like a human man pales next to Superman. That's the point of the characters in part. That's the WONDER and the SUPER part.
    I'm afraid I disagree. What I love about extraordinary heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman is that they both see the wonder in being human. They do not see themselves as above us despite their differences. Grant Morrison once highly praised Gail Simone's run on Action Comics prior to the reboot. One of my favorite lines from her "Strange Attractors" comes from Superman: "The world is full of exceptional people. The people in the world who do kindnesses, or search for truth despite their lives being at risk. The engineers, the teachers, the doctors and adoptive parents, the scholars and the firemen, and yes, the journalists. People who risk everything for the sake of others, and those who simply try to help those whose need might be greater than their own. Those people inspire me, not the other way around. They’re my magnetic north, if you will. They’re the WHY of it all. […] The world needs them more than it needs me. […] They’re special. I think they were all meant to do great things. Maybe greater in their way than what I can do."

    Gandalf, in the recently released The Hobbit, also notes: "Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." By the end of the film trilogy, it is Aragorn who proclaims that even small, powerless, ordinary hobbits like Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin "bow to no one."
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-22-2012 at 02:38 PM.

  4. #139
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    If something is sexist and I call it sexist, while others deny that it is, my taking it seriously and to the "extreme" is justified. Unless of course you think sexism is an non-serious thing.



    What? I've justified nothing. Pointing out sexism and defending myself against the accusation that I should view sexism as non-serious, or that what Lexrules said was in any way okay, is a righteous thing to do. Even in small ways and in minor places like this, sexism should not be treated as a joke or treated lightly. It's sad that you can identify what Lexrules said as sexist, yet you defend it and continue to be the one to cause problems by repeatedly mocking and invalidating my very valid concern. If you were to simply agree that sexist jokes are in bad taste, and therefore should be avoided, and stop making light of my concerns it would end the discussion.



    Uh, I wasn't the one to first drag Lois into this conversation. If other people are going to talk about her, then I'll respond. So I am not bringing her up as a defense measure on my part, I am defending her from attacks others initiated. Please be more careful in the future and try not to accuse me of doing something in a conversation until you've traced the history of it. It seems Superman and Wonder Woman advocates feel the need to explain what Diana contributes by comparing her to Lois.



    Given that comics are a storytelling medium, the key to storytelling is conflict and drama. With Lois, you have a story. Mark Waid recently spoke about storytelling in an interview: "An idea is not a series, and jokes are not characters […] A story is only a story if (a) it’s about someone (singular or plural) who wants something and (b) something’s in his (or their) way. And it’s a story worth telling only if (c) the reader has reasons to care about (a) and (b)." Since we're talking about a love story or romance, I'm sure you know that many of the greatest romances in literature are ones that involve struggle because there are obstacles to the match that are either internal or external. If you add Joseph Campbell's ideas about heroes' journeys or the monomyth, where the story must lead to a union that brings together the disparate aspects of a hero's universe, then what you have is the ingredients for an epic romance involving a hero. One sees in Man of Steel that the drama in Superman's narrative is acceptance into the human world. Just as humanity must trust him and embrace him despite his differences -- beautifully symbolized in Lois Lane's taking of his hand in front of a group of armed soldiers -- he must have the courage to reach out to humanity. Jonathan and Martha Kent were humans who adopted Kal-El as their own to create a family based on fulfilled hopes. For Superman to make a new family with a human not only makes sense, as his heart was nurtured through his human upbringing, but it also shows that he is willing to take the same risk Ma and Pa Kent did. To love despite fear and difference.

    Moreover, such a love story echoes classic romances like "Beauty and the Beast," which is about seeing beneath the surface and humanizing someone inhuman, or "Pride and Prejudice," which is a story about people from different backgrounds (Austen's stories are often about wealth/class differences) falling in love. Though not always love interests, even Doctor Who traditionally has human female companions. So when I think of Superman and Wonder Woman, I wonder what is the story, what is the struggle, what is poetic about Superman and Wonder Woman? Superman's myth is about his alien/human dichotomy and about power/restraint. A relationship with Wonder Wonder Woman doesn't really address those themes. Now in real life we don't pair up with people based on themes. But Superman, at its essence, is a modern myth. It is in the realm of legends and fairy tales, and as such it is at its best when it follows their conventions. The greats from Grant Morrison to Mark Waid to Elliot S! Maggin and more all identify the romantic relationship with Lois as a key part of Superman's myth. When you change the love interest in a monomyth you essentially change the message of the myth. If the beauty doesn't come to love the beast in "Beauty and the Beast," what is the purpose of that story anymore? If the alien who was adopted by humans, and whose biggest struggle in life is wanting to feel a part of his adopted planet, keeps his distance from humans out of fear and a sense of his own difference, what message does that send?

    Please respond via PM. Regardless of who started it, this thread shouldn't be about Lois. So let's discuss Lois privately and get this thread back on the topic of Wonder Woman. Thanks.




    I'm afraid I disagree. What I love about extraordinary heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman is that they both see the wonder in being human. They do not see themselves as above us despite their differences. Grant Morrison once highly praised Gail Simone's run on Action Comics prior to the reboot. One of my favorite lines from her "Strange Attractors" comes from Superman: "The world is full of exceptional people. The people in the world who do kindnesses, or search for truth despite their lives being at risk. The engineers, the teachers, the doctors and adoptive parents, the scholars and the firemen, and yes, the journalists. People who risk everything for the sake of others, and those who simply try to help those whose need might be greater than their own. Those people inspire me, not the other way around. They’re my magnetic north, if you will. They’re the WHY of it all. […] The world needs them more than it needs me. […] They’re special. I think they were all meant to do great things. Maybe greater in their way than what I can do."

    Gandalf, in the recently released The Hobbit, also notes: "Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps because I am afraid, and he gives me courage.”
    I didn't specifically site this thread when I said you bring her up, I just said that you do it. Also I don't think you really answered my question at all and in fact gave me the answer that I specifically asked you not to (i.e. the thematic reasons and links to humanity).

    But like you said I'll continue this in a PM with you if you like because it's something that I've really been looking to talk about.

  5. #140
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I didn't specifically site this thread when I said you bring her up, I just said that you do it. Also I don't think you really answered my question at all and in fact gave me the answer that I specifically asked you not to (i.e. the thematic reasons and links to humanity).

    But like you said I'll continue this in a PM with you if you like because it's something that I've really been looking to talk about.
    No, since you couldn't respond to me initially via PM, I'll respond here because that seems to be your preference. You asked "What if Superman just wants someone that he's attracted to and that makes it feel like he's not alone in the world?" And my response is that if Lois and Diana can both do that in their own way, then that particular issue becomes moot. As a result, all you're left with is the thematic and narrative issues that you want to arbitrarily dismiss. If it helps, it's the specific narrative device of the Superman/Lois/Clark triangle that people like Waid, Morrison, Maggin, etc. feel is so important because it specifically expresses the beauty and the beast, or look beneath the surface theme. I'll leave you with this quote about mythical romances in Tolkien's mythological world (a world where Eowyn and Feramir marry to unite Rohan and Gondor and Legolas and Gimli become friends to represent the reunion of elves and dwarves, and humble hobbits are given prominence), and then to PMs we'll go!

    "The tale of Beren and Luthien is set in Beleriand, during the First Age of Middle-earth. Luthien is the daughter of the elven King Thingol, ruler of Doriath, and Queen Melian, and thus immortal. Beren was a mortal man. Many of Tolkien's characteristic themes emerge in this story, including healing and sacrifice, evil, death and immortality, and romantic love. Through the eventual marriage of Beren and Luthien, an elven quality was preserved in future generations -- even into the Fourth Age when humankind became asecendent, and the elves declined. This theme is repeated in The Lord of the Rings with the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn. Throughout the ages of Middle-earth the story of Beren and Luthien brought hope and consolation both to elves and to those humans who were faithful against the powers of darkness. This hope is often expressed in The Lord of the Rings, by Aragorn and others. -- Colin Duriez, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis: The Gift of Friendship
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-22-2012 at 02:59 PM.

  6. #141
    Guardian of Love Sailor Moon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Oh, I know people are way weirder than you ever think they are, but a panel of Diana zipping up a bondage mask and telling Kal the safe word is "Beppo" might be too weird for me.
    That would never happen. It'd probably be a safety phrase. Merciful Minerva, probably

  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    No, since you couldn't respond to me initially via PM, I'll respond here because that seems to be your preference. You asked "What if Superman just wants someone that he's attracted to and that makes it feel like he's not alone in the world?" And my response is that if Lois and Diana can both do that in their own way, then that particular issue becomes moot. As a result, all you're left with is the thematic and narrative issues that you want to arbitrarily dismiss. If it helps, it's the specific narrative device of the Superman/Lois/Clark triangle that people like Waid, Morrison, Maggin, etc. feel is so important because it specifically expresses the beauty and the beast, or look beneath the surface theme. I'll leave you with this quote about mythical romances in Tolkien's mythological world (a world where Eowyn and Feramir marry to unite Rohan and Gondor and Legolas and Gimli become friends to represent the reunion of elves and dwarves, and humble hobbits are given prominence), and then to PMs we'll go!

    "The tale of Beren and Luthien is set in Beleriand, during the First Age of Middle-earth. Luthien is the daughter of the elven King Thingol, ruler of Doriath, and Queen Melian, and thus immortal. Beren was a mortal man. Many of Tolkien's characteristic themes emerge in this story, including healing and sacrifice, evil, death and immortality, and romantic love. Through the eventual marriage of Beren and Luthien, an elven quality was preserved in future generations -- even into the Fourth Age when humankind became asecendent, and the elves declined. This theme is repeated in The Lord of the Rings with the marriage of Arwen and Aragorn. Throughout the ages of Middle-earth the story of Beren and Luthien brought hope and consolation both to elves and to those humans who were faithful against the powers of darkness. This hope is often expressed in The Lord of the Rings, by Aragorn and others. -- Colin Duriez, Tolkien and C.S. Lewis: The Gift of Friendship
    So how do you feel about The Incredibles? A Movie about a Family of Supers. You really need to learn to let things go or at least be a little more.... Flexible.

  8. #143
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    This is a good question. The reasons that it is a good question is what makes it a hard question. At least for me, it's a hard question. With most relationships, both the man and woman brings something of importance to the relationship. Because of the image (e.g. the idea man) I've formed of Superman over the years, I don't think Wonder Woman can really add something to Superman that he doesn't already appear to posses. Wonder Woman just brings herself, until the perfection aurora (e.g. mortally speaking, that is) surrounding Superman convinces her that they just simply make good friends and colleagues of the Justice League.

    For Wonder Woman, maybe the pleasure of eye candy, sense of security, and an ideal, stable man, or all of the things a woman may long for in a happily ever after relationship. However, Wonder Woman just seems like she likes challenges and may not want to settle for that ideal arrangement for very long. I had other ideas for a relationship for Wonder Woman, where a man can truly gain from having her as his girlfriend and where Wonder Woman can face the challenges she craves in shaping a relationship. My idea is Dr. Psycho in her own rogues gallery. I've made such a proposal a lot, because Wonder Woman has to send a message that the man has truly come across a blessing to be in a relationship with Wonder Woman.

    I think Superman and Lois Lane, or Lana Lane, or, etc., were ideal arrangements, due to that aurora of the perfect man that Superman carries around with himself. For similar reasons with Wonder Woman/Dr. Psycho, these women have come across a blessing to have Superman, even though they each are great catches for Superman.

  9. #144
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    The thread doesn't ask to compare Diana to Lois. It asks to compare Diana to Clark. To think about how she can contribute to a relationship, as he has done already.
    No, it didn't. But I wasn't aware I wasn't allowed to make the comparison myself. One has served as a mate to Superman and the other is up for the job so thought why not see how they compare.

    She's a journalist?
    Which is a job for Lois. Its more like a hobby for Superman. Its what he does when he's not busy with his real job. That's basically how it is. So that's why I think it more in Diana's favor that she can actually participate with him on his real job. Plus, if she wanted, she could participate in his hobby. Lois can only be there for the hobby.

    I agree that Diana has skills. Which ones specifically do you feel would be useful for Superman to learn?
    Fighting techniques. Or more specifically defense of against them since Diana doesn't just bring her own physicality but weaponry as well. How to take a blow of either kind would be beneficial for him since he relies mostly on his invulnerability but she could add technique to taking a punch.

    They've both been portrayed as hotheaded, but honestly it's hard to say. In my opinion, their personalities vary so much depending on who writes them. Consider Grant Morrison's version of Superman in Action Comics #10 (click images for bigger versions):

    The writer does determine a lot but I think Diana has had to deal with the affects of violence (even if some of it was taught to her) whereas Superman hasn't really been visited by violence of that nature. His world exploded and his parents died (we assume of old age or disease). He probably doesn't understand exactly how it feels to have something ripped from you by force so he's not as harsh. Wonder Woman people history is all about that. So even if she's never experienced it, she's been taught of what it does. So its natural to me that she's more likely to be the hasher of the two. Superman gets mad. That's different than knowing.

  10. #145
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fate's Faith View Post
    No, it didn't. But I wasn't aware I wasn't allowed to make the comparison myself. One has served as a mate to Superman and the other is up for the job so thought why not see how they compare.
    I understand, and I personally don't mind it. However, when someone such as yourself brings up the comparison, I as a fan of Lois and Lois/Clark like to engage with those ideas, and in the past I've been taken to task for derailing threads for doing just that even though Lois was a factor other people seemed to want to discuss. I'm sure you've noticed more talk about Lois has happened in this thread since your post, so it's kind of drifted from just talking about Diana anyway. I'm okay with that, but others may not be (my apologies to those people). Hopefully, they'll let me/us know respectfully if they'd rather the thread's focus stay explicitly on Diana. That said, I'm currently discussing Lois with Superlad93 via PM, so that could work for us as well after I respond the the current post below.

    Which is a job for Lois. Its more like a hobby for Superman. Its what he does when he's not busy with his real job. That's basically how it is. So that's why I think it more in Diana's favor that she can actually participate with him on his real job. Plus, if she wanted, she could participate in his hobby. Lois can only be there for the hobby.
    Journalism is not a "hobby" to Clark in the New 52. Action Comics and Lobdell's recent Superman issues emphasize how much Clark values reporting. It being only a hobby, to use your words, is thus not "how it is" at all. Superman/Clark doesn't have just one job or one identity he considers more "real" than the other. Both his hero and human life are of equal value to him. That doesn't mean he gets to engage with his human pursuits as much as he'd like, but he has been shown to care deeply about the power of journalism. It is as much a part of him as being a superhero. It also represents his human life. If things like his human job, human friends, etc. just become hobbies and amusements to him rather than things he holds with equal esteem and affection, then I believe it only validates the concern that with Wonder Woman as a girlfriend, there is a tendency for Superman to be distanced from humanity.

    Fighting techniques. Or more specifically defense of against them since Diana doesn't just bring her own physicality but weaponry as well. How to take a blow of either kind would be beneficial for him since he relies mostly on his invulnerability but she could add technique to taking a punch.
    I'm not sure I see how this has continuous value. I think it definitely answers the question posed by this thread about what Diana could contribute, but just thinking about this type of contribution long term and it doesn't seem like it has continued relevance. Meaning, once Superman and Wonder Woman train and instruct each other the lesson is over. That takes what? A couple months until mastery occurs. How are skills with weaponry something that has perpetual value to a Superman and Wonder Woman pairing?

    The writer does determine a lot but I think Diana has had to deal with the affects of violence (even if some of it was taught to her) whereas Superman hasn't really been visited by violence of that nature. His world exploded and his parents died (we assume of old age or disease). He probably doesn't understand exactly how it feels to have something ripped from you by force so he's not as harsh. Wonder Woman people history is all about that. So even if she's never experienced it, she's been taught of what it does. So its natural to me that she's more likely to be the hasher of the two. Superman gets mad. That's different than knowing.
    Superman's parents were killed in a car accident according to Action Comics #15 at the hand of the 5th Dimensional villain Lord Vyndktvx. From what I've seen, Superman and Wonder Woman can both be hotheaded. Then again, pretty much every character in the New 52 is like that.

    I'll leave it up to you whether you want to continue to discuss this here or take it to PM.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-22-2012 at 06:14 PM.

  11. #146
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    WW has always been a bit scholarly even as a great warrior. Just because AZzarello is only showing her fighting I don't think she only sees value in swords. Her culture is derived from the Greeks and would revere learning. I think she would very much appreciate Clark's job in writing and exposing truth tc and I am sure as she was last canon, she can share intellectually with Clark and talk to him quite a bit about philosophy and ethics etc . In fact I can see her challenging him in things. Being a warrior she might be more practical while he might be a mite more idealistc and that combo worked for his birth parents. She also loves family and lost hers recently and can empathize with him losing his.

    And the new 52 has gone to pains to show how Clark is tethered to humanity because he sees this place as his home and he was brought up as Clark Kent as human and he loves his fellow man. He however is different. His fellow man and friends don't know who he is and what he can do because he is an alien. No amount of journalism will make him feel less isolated because he has to keep secrets. Good relationships are built on truth and trust and with WW he has that from day one. The conflicts and guilt are less with Diana too and she also brings in him a level of confidence I haven't seen in him for a while and that alone is a cause for celebration from me. With Lois I see mooning and whining and it's not exactly a good look for him. Plus he has to lie to her like everyone else so I have yet to see what different she makes to him in that aspect.
    Last edited by thepenguin; 12-22-2012 at 07:19 PM.

  12. #147
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    I just hope when they break up, Superman dumps Wonder Woman. Let him come out on top.

  13. #148
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    If something is sexist and I call it sexist, while others deny that it is, my taking it seriously and to the "extreme" is justified. Unless of course you think sexism is an non-serious thing.



    What? I've justified nothing. Pointing out sexism and defending myself against the accusation that I should view sexism as non-serious, or that what Lexrules said was in any way okay, is a righteous thing to do. Even in small ways and in minor places like this, sexism should not be treated as a joke or treated lightly. It's sad that you can identify what Lexrules said as sexist, yet you defend it and continue to be the one to cause problems by repeatedly mocking and invalidating my very valid concern. If you were to simply agree that sexist jokes are in bad taste, and therefore should be avoided, and stop making light of my concerns it would end the discussion.



    Uh, I wasn't the one to first drag Lois into this conversation. If other people are going to talk about her, then I'll respond. So I am not bringing her up as a defense measure on my part, I am defending her from attacks others initiated. Please be more careful in the future and try not to accuse me of doing something in a conversation until you've traced the history of it. It seems Superman and Wonder Woman advocates feel the need to explain what Diana contributes by comparing her to Lois.



    Given that comics are a storytelling medium, the key to storytelling is conflict and drama. With Lois, you have a story. Mark Waid recently spoke about storytelling in an interview: "An idea is not a series, and jokes are not characters […] A story is only a story if (a) it’s about someone (singular or plural) who wants something and (b) something’s in his (or their) way. And it’s a story worth telling only if (c) the reader has reasons to care about (a) and (b)." Since we're talking about a love story or romance, I'm sure you know that many of the greatest romances in literature are ones that involve struggle because there are obstacles to the match that are either internal or external. If you add Joseph Campbell's ideas about heroes' journeys or the monomyth, where the story must lead to a union that brings together the disparate aspects of a hero's universe, then what you have is the ingredients for an epic romance involving a hero. One sees in Man of Steel that the drama in Superman's narrative is acceptance into the human world. Just as humanity must trust him and embrace him despite his differences -- beautifully symbolized in Lois Lane's taking of his hand in front of a group of armed soldiers -- he must have the courage to reach out to humanity. Jonathan and Martha Kent were humans who adopted Kal-El as their own to create a family based on fulfilled hopes. For Superman to make a new family with a human not only makes sense, as his heart was nurtured through his human upbringing, but it also shows that he is willing to take the same risk Ma and Pa Kent did. To love despite fear and difference.

    Moreover, such a love story echoes classic romances like "Beauty and the Beast," which is about seeing beneath the surface and humanizing someone inhuman, or "Pride and Prejudice," which is a story about people from different backgrounds (Austen's stories are often about wealth/class differences) falling in love. Though not always love interests, even Doctor Who traditionally has human female companions. So when I think of Superman and Wonder Woman, I wonder what is the story, what is the struggle, what is poetic about Superman and Wonder Woman? Superman's myth is about his alien/human dichotomy and about power/restraint. A relationship with Wonder Wonder Woman doesn't really address those themes. Now in real life we don't pair up with people based on themes. But Superman, at its essence, is a modern myth. It is in the realm of legends and fairy tales, and as such it is at its best when it follows their conventions. The greats from Grant Morrison to Mark Waid to Elliot S! Maggin and more all identify the romantic relationship with Lois as a key part of Superman's myth. When you change the love interest in a monomyth you essentially change the message of the myth. If the beauty doesn't come to love the beast in "Beauty and the Beast," what is the purpose of that story anymore? If the alien who was adopted by humans, and whose biggest struggle in life is wanting to feel a part of his adopted planet, keeps his distance from humans out of fear and a sense of his own difference, what message does that send?

    Please respond via PM. Regardless of who started it, this thread shouldn't be about Lois. So let's discuss Lois privately and get this thread back on the topic of Wonder Woman. Thanks.




    I'm afraid I disagree. What I love about extraordinary heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman is that they both see the wonder in being human. They do not see themselves as above us despite their differences. Grant Morrison once highly praised Gail Simone's run on Action Comics prior to the reboot. One of my favorite lines from her "Strange Attractors" comes from Superman: "The world is full of exceptional people. The people in the world who do kindnesses, or search for truth despite their lives being at risk. The engineers, the teachers, the doctors and adoptive parents, the scholars and the firemen, and yes, the journalists. People who risk everything for the sake of others, and those who simply try to help those whose need might be greater than their own. Those people inspire me, not the other way around. They’re my magnetic north, if you will. They’re the WHY of it all. […] The world needs them more than it needs me. […] They’re special. I think they were all meant to do great things. Maybe greater in their way than what I can do."

    Gandalf, in the recently released The Hobbit, also notes: "Saruman believes it is only great power that can hold evil in check, but that is not what I have found. I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay. Small acts of kindness and love. Why Bilbo Baggins? Perhaps because I am afraid, and he gives me courage." By the end of the film trilogy, it is Aragorn who proclaims that even small, powerless, ordinary hobbits like Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin "bow to no one."
    Oh, I don't think Supes or WW think of themselves as superior or above humans necessarily, but the fact is that they are. Neither Steve nor Lois can compare to Diana or Kal. All I'm interested in is what makes for the most interesting stories. I don't care for that "ship" stuff. I don't know that him and Diana being together makes for very interesting reading because it cuts down on the number of conflicts. At the same time, it keeps some of the old and tired Superman tropes from being used over and over. Mostly I don't think it's good for her, because she needs to be more than just Superman's girlfriend, and I'm afraid that's all she'll end up being.
    Last edited by Kurosawa; 12-22-2012 at 08:12 PM.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovelikewinter View Post
    I just hope when they break up, Superman dumps Wonder Woman. Let him come out on top.
    Yeah, let's hope that something that won't make either character look bad will happen or anything there.

  15. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovelikewinter View Post
    I just hope when they break up, Superman dumps Wonder Woman. Let him come out on top.
    Well if there is any dumping I hope she kicks his whiny " I can't live without Lois to define me and give me purpose and show me how care for humanity" ass to the curb. Honestly, Diana, you could do so much better than a man (according to the gospel of cloisdom) who can only care for the earth because of this one woman to show him the way, who he's been lying to most for his incarnations btw.

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