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  1. #121

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    The Wonder Woman writer is ignoring the rest of the DCU. That title is about mythology and Gods and stuff. So the speculation about Superman and her book holds zero in terms of sales. He has not been mentioned or seen in her books. Neither has any of her iconic and classic characters and rogues, including Steve Trevor and her mom and sisters have been shelved for now.

    Most people if they like the sm/ww ship will be buying JL becasue that is where the relationship is right now. The SM writers intend to bring WW into the SM books. So if you know that, some fans might buy that, otherwise why buy WW if 1, the mythology and god chasing ain't your thing and 2, Supes is not going to be in it?

    And the OP who started this? Do you expect to know stuff like that on a first date? I must be stupid or something since this Superman is not the boyscout of last continuity and Diana has a different origin too etc so to me this is two new versions and DC are starting fresh. Not one of us know anything that will happen or how it will happen because it has not been written and yet to be read. So far Johns have been showing they are very attracted to each other and feel this connection and they are now opening up to each other.

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Ah, but she can. Superman can't be Superman without the support of the people. Lois, as a journalist, can use her position in the press to keep the public on his side. Plus, Lois has already used her position as executive producer at PGN to help Superman fight an invisible foe. On Smallville, it was Lois Lane's determined defense of Clark's proto-Superman that allowed him to debut to the public in a way that undermined Darkseid's hold on the billions of humans he had marked with his Omega (anti-life). Scott Snyder seems poised to explore how Superman can navigate an enemy who tests him by in some way questioning his role in the public and political sphere. Being a journalist gives Superman as Clark Kent a means of obtaining the kind of justice Superman simply cannot achieve without becoming too immersed in political alliances.
    That's really reaching. A single journalist or news producer has very little power to shape public opinion. Superman and Wonder Woman backing each other up in public would do far more for their image.

    Some celebrities, doctors, lawyers, and financiers find mates who are in the same line of work. There are many who do not, however. Michelle Obama doesn't know what it's like to be President of the United States, for example, yet the Obama marriage seems to be doing just fine.
    That's another example of like marrying like. They got to know each other since they were both lawyers at the same firm and were put into close contact with each other because they were both Harvard Law School alums. Michelle didn't marry some grocery clerk.

    Many soldiers fighting in Afghanistan are able to maintain successful marriages to people who have civilian jobs. The same could be said of many police and firefighters. On the other side of things, a lot of celebrity couples fall apart.
    I don't know how long you've been a counselor, but haven't you seen an increasing trend of people in the same profession marrying each other? Doctors used to marry nurses and lawyers and bankers used to marry their secretaries. Now it's more likely for them to pair up with professional peers. It doesn't guarantee a successful marriage but it's an unmistakeable trend of preference.

    Being with a human would be a means of manifesting Clark's specific love and connection to the humanity within himself. And, as with any great heroic tale, it's a way of thematically and literally marrying the two halves or worlds prominently featured in a story.
    We've seen that story play out for the past twenty years or so and it's time for something new. Otherwise what's the point of the 52 reboot?

    It's not the size of the threat that matters. It's the stakes. Lois and Steve have put their lives on the line to save people. They know what it is like to risk everything to defeat evil.
    Not on the same scale or on the same regular basis or with the same pressure to perform. Lois Lane always ends up getting rescued unless she's facing a low-rent mugger. The comparison doesn't hold.

    The bottom line is that fear should not decide love. Choosing to love only those people whom you believe will always be safe is a cowardly and hopeless way to live. Heroes follow their bliss. They accept the uncertainties and pains of life as part of life. Heroes do not run from their hearts because there may come a day when darkness may strain or break it.
    That's not the choice that's being made since WW is regularly exposed to danger. Your point would hold if she was not on active duty.
    The two most powerful warriors are patience and time - Leo Tolstoy

  3. #123
    ..for whom the bell tolls The Frozen Reptile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    She could teach him about the weird world of gods, and various things about hand-to-hand fighting technique. Both are useful to know for his superhero life.

    More on the personal level, there are people who simply enjoy the company of people from foreign cultures, and some who purposefully date outside their own race/ethnicity. Maybe Superman finds all that stuff fascinating, or wants to broaden his horizons and all that jazz.
    Everyone Superman dates is outside his ethnicity...
    "Make yourself comfortable, I haven’t time to attend to it." - With these words, a legend was born.

  4. #124
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cactusmaac View Post
    That's really reaching. A single journalist or news producer has very little power to shape public opinion. Superman and Wonder Woman backing each other up in public would do far more for their image.
    But Lois has affected national news coverage and national opinion about Superman. It's happened in the New 52. You're making claims about what a news producer can do that is not only not backed up by the facts of the story but also by real life (i.e. journalists have made significant contributions in the real world). Clark Kent himself in Superman 13 spoke about the power of journalism to "shape the course of mighty rivers." Lobdell has said Clark will put out his own story about the Suicide Squad that will be of great importance. Look at a villain like Graves, who wrote a book about the JL, and how much of a threat that can pose. To dismiss the power of journalism is to dismiss a huge part of who Superman is and what he believes.

    That's another example of like marrying like. They got to know each other since they were both lawyers at the same firm and were put into close contact with each other because they were both Harvard Law School alums. Michelle didn't marry some grocery clerk.
    Apples and oranges and completely irrelevant. Clark Kent, journalist, is by Superman's own admission a valued part of his life and Lois Lane is his former rival and best friend in that career. You seem to keep forgetting that. The point I was making was that the relationship between Barack and Michelle doesn't depend, in the long term, on total shared experience. Joe and Jill Biden are a very happy couple, but he's Vice President and she's a school teacher. If you think the only happy and successful relationships -- or event the majority of happy and successful relationships -- are between people who do the same job then that should allow that Lois and Diana simply operate in different, yet equally important, spheres of Superman/Clark's life. It's a moot point, as a result.

    I don't know how long you've been a counselor, but haven't you seen an increasing trend of people in the same profession marrying each other? Doctors used to marry nurses and lawyers and bankers used to marry their secretaries. Now it's more likely for them to pair up with professional peers. It doesn't guarantee a successful marriage but it's an unmistakeable trend of preference.
    No, I haven't seen that. Do you have actual data to back up your claims?

    We've seen that story play out for the past twenty years or so and it's time for something new. Otherwise what's the point of the 52 reboot?
    To tell these stories for a new generation and to find new ways to tell the same myth. Like I said before, Beauty & The Beast has been reinterpreted multiple times and is a new TV show currently, and the central pairing and the themes are the same. Smallville did a twist on the Lois and Clark relationship as well.

    Not on the same scale or on the same regular basis or with the same pressure to perform. Lois Lane always ends up getting rescued unless she's facing a low-rent mugger. The comparison doesn't hold.
    I thought this was the New 52. You pointed that out to me in your comment above, so why are you here using Lois' characterization from decades ago to make a point about a new era? Lois has barely been rescued at all in the New 52; she's actually had to rescue Superman TWICE. She and Steve do act heroically. They risk their lives and face down threats for the good of others.

    That's not the choice that's being made since WW is regularly exposed to danger. Your point would hold if she was not on active duty.
    No, see. It was argued that Superman should be with Wonder Woman because he wouldn't have to worry about her like he would Lois. If Diana is regularly exposed to danger, then that rationale doesn't hold. For Clark to not take a chance with Lois for the reason he explained in JL12 (he keeps secrets to protect) would he him letting fear decide love. For Superman to be shown in a heroic light, he would have to eschew the estrangement from humanity that he and Diana share and which drew them together initially, and actually risk his own heart to get close to humans despite his concerns about their possible safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by kylesgirl View Post
    Most people if they like the sm/ww ship will be buying JL becasue that is where the relationship is right now. The SM writers intend to bring WW into the SM books. So if you know that, some fans might buy that, otherwise why buy WW if 1, the mythology and god chasing ain't your thing and 2, Supes is not going to be in it?
    I find it interesting that sales of Justice League have continued to steadily decline since the ultimate power couple was introduced back in the twelfth issue.

    And the OP who started this? Do you expect to know stuff like that on a first date? I must be stupid or something since this Superman is not the boyscout of last continuity and Diana has a different origin too etc so to me this is two new versions and DC are starting fresh. Not one of us know anything that will happen or how it will happen because it has not been written and yet to be read. So far Johns have been showing they are very attracted to each other and feel this connection and they are now opening up to each other.
    I don't think anyone is predicting exactly what will happen. Fans are just being asked to consider who Clark is and who Diana is in the New 52, and ultimately decide what strengths Diana has that might be helpfully shared with Clark to address his weaknesses.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-22-2012 at 06:29 AM.

  5. #125
    It's Lexrules... GET HIM. Lexrules's Avatar
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    WOW..

    I love how one statement made out of fun became me being a male chauvinist pig.

    Thanks to those who understand that jokes are a part of life even the worst ones, and for those people who have a problem then you know what you could kiss of mine.

    Welcome to the real world...
    Last edited by Lexrules; 12-22-2012 at 08:18 AM.

  6. #126
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    I love how one statement made out of fun became me being a male chauvinist pig.
    I've decided not to ignore you because I believe your comments should still be addressed. Your joke suggested women with big breasts are asking to be teased and objectified. As a woman who has been on the receiving end of such unpleasant treatment due to my bust size, I found the joke -- whether it was made innocently or not -- to be offensive. When asked what Diana could contribute to her relationship with Clark, your response centered on how she could please him sexually. How is that sort of behavior not chauvinist?

    Thanks to those who understand that jokes are a part of life even the worst ones, and for those people who have a problem then you know what you could kiss of mine.
    Bad jokes are part of life as are the sincere apologies that should come with them. I accept the former and am awaiting the latter.

    Welcome to the real world...
    In the real world, bad sexist jokes happen, but they shouldn't. Instead of suggesting people just get used to it, perhaps you could simply endeavor to understand why the joke was problematic and apologize for it sincerely.

  7. #127
    Senior Member Darth Joker's Avatar
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    There's three (arguably four) sides to the being most commonly known as "Superman".

    There's the ultimate superhero "Superman".

    There's "news reporter Clark Kent".

    And then there's "Kal-El of Krypton".

    For Superman, combining these different aspects of himself into a holistic whole is very important for him achieving a sense of stability and internal harmony. With Superman, most people see "Superman" or "Clark Kent". "Kal-El of Krypton" often gets lost in the shuffle.

    For most of the rest of the JLA, they see "Superman". The exceptions are Batman and Wonder Woman. I liked how, pre-Nu52, Batman would almost always call him "Clark", and Wonder Woman would often call him "Kal". I think that reflects how both characters prefer to view him. With the exception of fellow kryptonians, there's not that many people in the DCU that are entirely comfortable with "Kal-El of Krypton", but Wonder Woman is one of those few. The reason is obvious - She herself is a person of unique birth and standing. And when in "man's world", she's mixing with a culture unlike that of her birthplace, much like "Kal-El" is.

    By being like this, Wonder Woman can help Superman make peace with his alien origins and his alien heritage. It gives him a person that he can feel comfortable being open about that alien side of himself, which is especially important at the moment given that his current relationship with Supergirl isn't exactly sunshine and roses.
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  8. #128
    Senior Member DragonPiece's Avatar
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    Thank you Miss Lane and Lex Rules, I haven't laughed that hard in a while!
    DC/Marvel reader. Mostly Superman,Batman,X-Men,Avengers fan...guess I am a fan of most comics.

  9. #129
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Joker View Post
    For most of the rest of the JLA, they see "Superman". The exceptions are Batman and Wonder Woman. I liked how, pre-Nu52, Batman would almost always call him "Clark", and Wonder Woman would often call him "Kal". I think that reflects how both characters prefer to view him.
    But, to me, the fact that Diana called Superman "Kal" while Bruce called him "Clark" was emblematic of how she did not understand how Pre-Flashpoint Superman primarily viewed himself. He did not see himself as Kal but rather either just Clark Kent or a combination of Superman/Kal/Clark.

    With the exception of fellow kryptonians, there's not that many people in the DCU that are entirely comfortable with "Kal-El of Krypton", but Wonder Woman is one of those few. The reason is obvious - She herself is a person of unique birth and standing. And when in "man's world", she's mixing with a culture unlike that of her birthplace, much like "Kal-El" is.
    Wonder Woman's experience is not analogous to Superman's, though. Ordinary human culture is Superman's culture. It is Superman's alien cultural heritage that is relatively new to him. In other words, Diana is acclimating to ordinary human culture while Clark is acclimating to recent knowledge he has gained of his Kryptonian heritage. Their experiences are not the same.

    By being like this, Wonder Woman can help Superman make peace with his alien origins and his alien heritage. It gives him a person that he can feel comfortable being open about that alien side of himself, which is especially important at the moment given that his current relationship with Supergirl isn't exactly sunshine and roses.
    Perhaps that will be Diana's role. However, it has always been my belief, which is based on my study of mythology and heroic monomyth, that an outsider like Superman best makes peace with his otherness by finding love and acceptance within the culture from which he feels most alienated. If Superman only feels comfortable being special and alien with someone equally special, then that is only putting a band-aid on the problem. To find true comfort would be to find a way to feel comfortable and accepted as an alien among those who are not like you; to take the risk to truly open up to someone you might fear will not understand to find that the barriers you worried would exist are easily broken down. Thus that type of connection, like the one depicted in the Man of Steel trailer between Lois and Superman, aids in a sense of belonging and feeling comfortable as an alien among those different from himself. Meanwhile, additional understanding of his Kryptonian side can only come from sources of that culture. Accordingly, Superman would be better off working at building a relationship with Kara than with Diana if greater understanding of his alien side is the goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonPiece View Post
    Thank you Miss Lane and Lex Rules, I haven't laughed that hard in a while!
    It is amazing to me how many people think tasteless jokes are funny.
    Last edited by misslane38; 12-22-2012 at 09:30 AM.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sailor Moon View Post
    I see people talking about how there's no benefit to Superman saleswise here, but is there to Wonder Woman, either? It doesn't seem like her book has jumped up a lot more since they announced the union. I'm pretty sure the only real benefit from either is whatever story Johns is weaving out of it.



    Haha, oh dude, I promise you; the people who tend to be into certain thing, you just would never guess.
    WW does not add to Superman's popularity - he is already the most well known entity in the entire world. While with this relationship WW is getting more popular.
    Rehire Grant Morrison for Superman.
    Give Lois her own BOOKS.
    Keep Scott Lobdell in Superverse forever.
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  11. #131
    Senior Member Cypher-Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Lasso is magic and in some continuities she gets control of whoever she ties up with it-they have to obey her every command.

    The weirdest thing about Kal and Diana as a couple is, if written true to character, then he is a very square character and if she is written right, she is kinky and bizarre as all hell. The Golden Age Wonder Woman comics-which are the only ones that were hugely successful-are very very weird. I'm not sure I can get into the idea of seeing goody goody Superman tied up by a wild Greek Amazon who is into discipline masks and spanking and such.
    Ahh. Thats a interesting way to look at it. I think we seriously came up with more interesting and original ideas to implement here then DC when they thought of this traverse. This does have the potential to be grade A stuff. For that fact alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daesim View Post
    I see it as a pairing of equals. Besides, It seems counter intuitive to criticize a young woman for having sexual inclinations and choosing to share them with her chosen partner; Diana comes from a sexually liberated culture that takes its pleasures as it will. Given the established facts of what Amazons do to men in the new 52, if anyone is being reduced to arm candy here, it's Clark.

    As for what Diana brings to the table: What? Seriously? Does the chick need a frickin' dowry in order to hang with the House of El? They like each other and they're attracted to each other and that's all anyone needs to form a basic relationship. Wonder woman does not have a dearth of credibility when it comes to the little things like saving the day.
    What is your avatar and why is it the most hilarious thing in the world?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lexrules View Post
    WOW..

    I love how one statement made out of fun became me being a male chauvinist pig.

    Thanks to those who understand that jokes are a part of life even the worst ones, and for those people who have a problem then you know what you could kiss of mine.

    Welcome to the real world...
    /High fives

    Keep the funny train advancing my good sir.

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    It is amazing to me how many people think tasteless jokes are funny.
    Lexrules jokes are lame, unfunny and sexist but your reactions are truly marvelous. Taking an inoffensive crappy joke to an extreme measure is enough to justify starting this crappy relationship. Ironically starting this "ship" (f**k that word) has been justified by you. Just ignore the troll and he'll go away.
    Last edited by Aquacatlungfish; 12-22-2012 at 11:08 AM.

  13. #133
    Senior Member Cypher-Z's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    Lexrules jokes are lame, unfunny and sexist but your reactions are truly marvelous. Taking an inoffensive crappy joke to an extreme measure is enough to justify starting this crappy relationship.


    ^Jesus Christ this thread is the best.

    Im laughing so hard. The Superman forum has to be the best forum on the site.

    People put passion into their posts here.
    Last edited by Cypher-Z; 12-22-2012 at 11:51 AM.

  14. #134
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    But Lois has affected national news coverage and national opinion about Superman. It's happened in the New 52. You're making claims about what a news producer can do that is not only not backed up by the facts of the story but also by real life (i.e. journalists have made significant contributions in the real world). Clark Kent himself in Superman 13 spoke about the power of journalism to "shape the course of mighty rivers." Lobdell has said Clark will put out his own story about the Suicide Squad that will be of great importance. Look at a villain like Graves, who wrote a book about the JL, and how much of a threat that can pose. To dismiss the power of journalism is to dismiss a huge part of who Superman is and what he believes.



    Apples and oranges and completely irrelevant. Clark Kent, journalist, is by Superman's own admission a valued part of his life and Lois Lane is his former rival and best friend in that career. You seem to keep forgetting that. The point I was making was that the relationship between Barack and Michelle doesn't depend, in the long term, on total shared experience. Joe and Jill Biden are a very happy couple, but he's Vice President and she's a school teacher. If you think the only happy and successful relationships -- or event the majority of happy and successful relationships -- are between people who do the same job then that should allow that Lois and Diana simply operate in different, yet equally important, spheres of Superman/Clark's life. It's a moot point, as a result.



    No, I haven't seen that. Do you have actual data to back up your claims?



    To tell these stories for a new generation and to find new ways to tell the same myth. Like I said before, Beauty & The Beast has been reinterpreted multiple times and is a new TV show currently, and the central pairing and the themes are the same. Smallville did a twist on the Lois and Clark relationship as well.



    I thought this was the New 52. You pointed that out to me in your comment above, so why are you here using Lois' characterization from decades ago to make a point about a new era? Lois has barely been rescued at all in the New 52; she's actually had to rescue Superman TWICE. She and Steve do act heroically. They risk their lives and face down threats for the good of others.



    No, see. It was argued that Superman should be with Wonder Woman because he wouldn't have to worry about her like he would Lois. If Diana is regularly exposed to danger, then that rationale doesn't hold. For Clark to not take a chance with Lois for the reason he explained in JL12 (he keeps secrets to protect) would he him letting fear decide love. For Superman to be shown in a heroic light, he would have to eschew the estrangement from humanity that he and Diana share and which drew them together initially, and actually risk his own heart to get close to humans despite his concerns about their possible safety.



    I find it interesting that sales of Justice League have continued to steadily decline since the ultimate power couple was introduced back in the twelfth issue.



    I don't think anyone is predicting exactly what will happen. Fans are just being asked to consider who Clark is and who Diana is in the New 52, and ultimately decide what strengths Diana has that might be helpfully shared with Clark to address his weaknesses.

    Ok see I don't understand, you bring up Lois all the time when we're all taking about Wonder Woman and Superman almost as a defense measure or something it seems but what you end up pointing out is that Lois is as good a mate for Superman as Wonder Woman is but in turn that means Wonder Woman is just as good as Lois but just from as different spectrum. The only real difference that I feel like I ever see you site is the thematic difference of how Lois better links him to humanity, but what if Superman just wants someone that he's attracted to and that makes it feel like he's not alone in the world? I mean can't both do this for him in their own way? I think so.

    Both are strong, independent, high moral, beautiful, amazing, outgoing women who never back down from what they believe in and it just seems like that's the type of girl that Superman likes. If you ask me their almost interchangeable as they bring the same things just on different ends of the spectrum as I said up top.

    other than that human link what does Lois have that makes her the one over Wonder Woman?

  15. #135
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Ok see I don't understand, you bring up Lois all the time when we're all taking about Wonder Woman and Superman almost as a defense measure or something it seems but what you end up pointing out is that Lois is as good a mate for Superman as Wonder Woman is but in turn that means Wonder Woman is just as good as Lois but just from as different spectrum. The only real difference that I feel like I ever see you site is the thematic difference of how Lois better links him to humanity, but what if Superman just wants someone that he's attracted to and that makes it feel like he's not alone in the world? I mean can't both do this for him in their own way? I think so.

    Both are strong, independent, high moral, beautiful, amazing, outgoing women who never back down from what they believe in and it just seems like that's the type of girl that Superman likes. If you ask me their almost interchangeable as they bring the same things just on different ends of the spectrum as I said up top.

    other than that human link what does Lois have that makes her the one over Wonder Woman?
    You are pretty much right about this. A human woman no matter how accomplished or impressive pales next to Wonder Woman just like a human man pales next to Superman. That's the point of the characters in part. That's the WONDER and the SUPER part.
    Last edited by Kurosawa; 12-22-2012 at 12:28 PM.
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