What is Wonder Woman bringing on the table for Superman in their relationship?

[Fate's Faith]

Well, I will ignore practically everything said so far since I think it is an interesting question. Thinking on it and compairing what Lois brings it comes down to just a couple of things to me. She's a full partner to him as she can be right beside him in all aspects of his life and she has a specific skill set he doesn't possess so he can learn from her. As a person, I think they both are pretty similar in their views of right and wrong but she's more hardlined than he strikes me. Which I can never decide if that's a good trait on either's part since at times it seems he's too soft and she's too hard. Unfortunately, I don't see a long term relationship.

[cactusmaac]

I don't see this as a reason why they are a perfect match. Men and women don't mate solely with a partner who is perfectly equal to them in stature in the same profession. You could just as easily say, for example, that Lois and Clark are relatively well-matched because they have the same stature in the journalism community. Superman's and Wonder Woman's stature is also not something Diana personally contributes to the relationship, for it is just a fact of who they are. What specifically, I wonder, can Diana help Superman with as a result of her similar stature? What is something new and different she can give to Superman that he does not already possess?

Super-heroing and journalism aren't equally important for him, the latter always gets put to one side when Clark's needed as Superman. His work as a journalist is fulfilling but ultimately by-lines in the Daily Planet aren't what stop Darkseid or Mongul from using the Earth as their brand new toilet bowl. It's his work as a superhero that defines his life. In that sense Lois can't contribute much to it. Diana's stature means she also knows what it's like to play in the major leagues as a highly prominent superhero, it would be a different matter if he was dating Katana. Being of equal stature means she can sympathise and offer advice and perspective on how to deal with their high-presssure, hectic lives. It's similar to how Hollywood stars, high-flying doctors, lawyers and financiers and writers often find a compatible partner in the same line of work.

Empathy based on shared experience is great and can definitely support a successful relationship, but what about being with someone who allows you to connect more fully with the more human and ordinary aspects of life? That can be valuable as well. Clark was raised as a human, for instance, so wouldn't it be nice to be with someone who can let you recall and rest in your humanity? In Justice League #14, Superman told Wonder Woman that keeping Smallville in his heart helps him cope with life as a superhero. Why not make that affection for human simplicity less abstract by linking together the extraordinary and ordinary worlds through love?

He was raised as a human, he doesn't necessarily need a human lover to help him stay connected to humanity. All he needs for that is regular interaction with other people which is what he gets by being Clark Kent. Having a superhero counterpart wouldn't mean he becomes less attached to the world he knows unless he has to spend all his down-time as Superman too.

Humans like Lois and Steve have risked their lives for the same stakes. Personally, I think not having superpowers is a plus because god-like heroes should never lose sight of the human perspective.

How many cosmic tyrants have Lois and Steve defeated in combat?

To choose a mate out of fear isn't a good idea. I would hope any person, including Superman and Wonder Woman, would love for love's sake and not love only those are the easiest to love. True love sacrifices and risks everything: fear should never decide love. Let Clark and Diana love each other because they make each other happy and make each other better people. Let them love each other because they challenge each other. But, please, don't let fear about mortal safety factor into deciding whom is worthy of love.

True but not having to worry about that is an added bonus.

[lariatofhestia]

She represents more than that to me and to many others. She should never be reduced to just that, which you did with your initial response.

If she is that important to you then put you money where your mouth is and support her comics and learn some stuff about her. It's clear you know very little about her. It's one thing making all these sweeping statements yet in the same breath saying you don't particularly care for the character and don't buy her comics or even knows what is going on in the comics apart from previews. Stop trying to move the goal posts as well when it suits you. Lex Rules buys comics. He can say what he darn well wants too and can you stop trying to infer only you care for women? You know nothing about any of the people here. Good grief, this is getting ridiculous now.

[misslane38]

Let me say for posterity I am a woman here too (though I can't prove nothing really can I?) and I have not seen the need to pull that card on these forums as somehow the reason why people have to listen to me or the reason why anyone should supposedly give me special treatment. I know there are other females who occasionally post here who don't come sing that song as well. People are entitled to opinions no matter their gender but I don't see why we must premise rebuttals with it.

No one asked for special treatment. I would hope objectifying Wonder Woman and then posting subsequent unfunny sexist "jokes" about how women deserve to be harassed if they look sexy would be viewed as objectively inappropriate. Sometimes male privilege blinds individuals from appreciating how disconcerting comments like that can be. Explaining one's female perspective isn't a call for special treatment, but common courtesy.

It is about time they allow these two characters to act like sexual beings.

It's canon that Superman's been a sexual being for over 30 years now.

Her background...the princess and daughter of Zeus...allows her to understand what leadership means, and Clark is destined to be a great leader of men (analogy of a guy who grows up on a farm but with something of a King's inheritance and responsibility coming his way)...she truly now must understand restraint in Azz' WW.

How much of Diana's character and formative years were really affected by her paternal link to Zeus if she didn't even know he was her father until later in life? I ask only because I have not read every single Wonder Woman book and am unsure how much Zeus has played a role in Diana's character. As an aside, Lois Lane grew up with a General for a father and is the leader of her own news organization.

I think Lobdell intends to have Diana show Clark that. He said whatever reservations Clark may have about himself as Clark Diana might show him he doesn't need to because....he's actaully a catch.

Interesting. Do you have a link to the interview where this was said? All I remember Lobdell saying in one interview was basically that Wonder Woman probably thinks to herself, "Let's go out. You're hot and you're mild-mannered."

The Superman writers are not ignoring her at all. So safe to assume they think she can offer something?

Maybe. Snyder and Diggle will both be writing Lois and Lana, along with lots of guest characters like Diana and Bruce, apparently.

Let me just say they have just begun to discover things about each other. The first date with a guy or girl...who would eventually become someone important to you...I don't think anyone of us look at it as...oh I wonder what he/she is going to bring to the table for me. Don't you allow the dynamics to play out? It's really premature to look at relationships this way. DC have said many times, they want to EXPLORE Clark and Dianaa...that is what they are doing.

Writers have to be very selective about how they choose to use their limited panel space. So far whenever Clark and Diana get together, she says very little. In JL15, Clark even is given the dialogue about Diana'a extended family; she's not given the opportunity to verbalize details of her own life, unfortunately. Meanwhile, Clark monopolizes the conversation presumably because what Johns is primarily interested in isn't Wonder Woman, or building the relationship, but helping readers understand Superman better.

I think personally that is boring as hell and if I wanted to read the same story I wouldn't be buying the new 52.

Relationships that are iconic or legendary get reinterpreted with twists for new generations. The actual players don't change much, but perhaps the steps along the journey do. Smallville played out the Lois and Clark relationship in a way it's never been done before. Kristin Kreuk's Beauty & The Beast television show is telling the familiar tale, which was originally reinterpreted in a 80s TV show, but with variations for a new modern audience. That said, it's not my place to question what entertains you. If Lois/Clark bores you, it bores you. Some share your feelings, some don't (like these 2500 people).

Thinking on it and compairing what Lois brings it comes down to just a couple of things to me.

The thread doesn't ask to compare Diana to Lois. It asks to compare Diana to Clark. To think about how she can contribute to a relationship, as he has done already.

She's a full partner to him as she can be right beside him in all aspects of his life

She's a journalist?

and she has a specific skill set he doesn't possess so he can learn from her.

I agree that Diana has skills. Which ones specifically do you feel would be useful for Superman to learn?

As a person, I think they both are pretty similar in their views of right and wrong but she's more hardlined than he strikes me.

They've both been portrayed as hotheaded, but honestly it's hard to say. In my opinion, their personalities vary so much depending on who writes them. Consider Grant Morrison's version of Superman in Action Comics #10 (click images for bigger versions):

Which I can never decide if that's a good trait on either's part since at times it seems he's too soft and she's too hard. Unfortunately, I don't see a long term relationship.

Agreed on both counts.

[stk]

If she is that important to you then put you money where your mouth is and support her comics and learn some stuff about her. It's clear you know very little about her. It's one thing making all these sweeping statements yet in the same breath saying you don't particularly care for the character and don't buy her comics or even knows what is going on in the comics apart from previews. Stop trying to move the goal posts as well when it suits you. Lex Rules buys comics. He can say what he darn well wants too and can you stop trying to infer only you care for women? You know nothing about any of the people here. Good grief, this is getting ridiculous now.

The Citizen Kane clapping was already posted in this thread, so... um... well done and carry on.

[misslane38]

Super-heroing and journalism aren't equally important for him, the latter always gets put to one side when Clark's needed as Superman. His work as a journalist is fulfilling but ultimately by-lines in the Daily Planet aren't what stop Darkseid or Mongul from using the Earth as their brand new toilet bowl. It's his work as a superhero that defines his life. In that sense Lois can't contribute much to it.

Ah, but she can. Superman can't be Superman without the support of the people. Lois, as a journalist, can use her position in the press to keep the public on his side. Plus, Lois has already used her position as executive producer at PGN to help Superman fight an invisible foe. On Smallville, it was Lois Lane's determined defense of Clark's proto-Superman that allowed him to debut to the public in a way that undermined Darkseid's hold on the billions of humans he had marked with his Omega (anti-life). Scott Snyder seems poised to explore how Superman can navigate an enemy who tests him by in some way questioning his role in the public and political sphere. Being a journalist gives Superman as Clark Kent a means of obtaining the kind of justice Superman simply cannot achieve without becoming too immersed in political alliances.

Diana's stature means she also knows what it's like to play in the major leagues as a highly prominent superhero, it would be a different matter if he was dating Katana. Being of equal stature means she can sympathise and offer advice and perspective on how to deal with their high-presssure, hectic lives. It's similar to how Hollywood stars, high-flying doctors, lawyers and financiers and writers often find a compatible partner in the same line of work.

Some celebrities, doctors, lawyers, and financiers find mates who are in the same line of work. There are many who do not, however. Michelle Obama doesn't know what it's like to be President of the United States, for example, yet the Obama marriage seems to be doing just fine. Many soldiers fighting in Afghanistan are able to maintain successful marriages to people who have civilian jobs. The same could be said of many police and firefighters. On the other side of things, a lot of celebrity couples fall apart. I don't see similar professions as a point in favor of any relationship. As a counselor, I've never needed to have experienced what my clients have experienced and I've never had to be on the same level as my clients in order to provide them with the empathy and tools they need to cope, survive, and thrive.

He was raised as a human, he doesn't necessarily need a human lover to help him stay connected to humanity. All he needs for that is regular interaction with other people which is what he gets by being Clark Kent. Having a superhero counterpart wouldn't mean he becomes less attached to the world he knows unless he has to spend all his down-time as Superman too.

Being with a human would be a means of manifesting Clark's specific love and connection to the humanity within himself. And, as with any great heroic tale, it's a way of thematically and literally marrying the two halves or worlds prominently featured in a story.

How many cosmic tyrants have Lois and Steve defeated in combat?

It's not the size of the threat that matters. It's the stakes. Lois and Steve have put their lives on the line to save people. They know what it is like to risk everything to defeat evil.

True but not having to worry about that is an added bonus.

The bottom line is that fear should not decide love. Choosing to love only those people whom you believe will always be safe is a cowardly and hopeless way to live. Heroes follow their bliss. They accept the uncertainties and pains of life as part of life. Heroes do not run from their hearts because there may come a day when darkness may strain or break it.

[misslane38]

If she is that important to you then put you money where your mouth is and support her comics and learn some stuff about her. It's clear you know very little about her.

Let's not do this again in yet another thread. I've never said I don't particularly care for Diana, and you know that. All I've said is that she's not my favorite character. She's not my #1. That doesn't mean she's not in my Top 10. Let's discuss my ideas instead of trying to enforce some sort of purity test.

Lex Rules buys comics. He can say what he darn well wants too and can you stop trying to infer only you care for women? You know nothing about any of the people here. Good grief, this is getting ridiculous now.

You know for a fact that Lexrules has purchased all of Azzarello's Wonder Woman run? I've not inferred I only care for women. How can I infer something from myself. Do you mean imply? I didn't imply that I alone cared about women nor did I claim I knew about anyone in particular here. I simply criticized Lexrules for making sexist comments. Unless you think this type of statement from him is perfectly respectful and reasonable: "It's like real life you walk around like that your going to get remarks and jokes thrown your way. Either change how you look or deal with it because it's what you chose." A woman who is beautiful deserves to be harassed by men? That's an okay view to have, from your perspective? Think about that. In fact, take that a step further and change harassed to raped, and then you'll understand why such victim blaming is totally inappropriate and should not be expressed or endorsed anywhere by anyone.

Now this is the last time I'll respond to you here. Any additional responses I'll do via PM because this is a thread about Diana's contribution to her new relationship with Superman. It's not about me and it's not about Lexrules. If you want to derail the thread with additional off-topic discussion, that's on you.

[super1man]

Its all a sales tactics. Since Superman has the greater/bigger mythology and sells far better the only one benefiting from this tactics is WW. Super books have already started giving WW story panels while Superman is yet to appear in WW books. So WW fans can get more books with her but Superman is still stuck to same number of books.

I see only WW benefiting from this arrangement.

[kylesgirl]

Superman has been such a vanilla character for a while. The reboot changed that. I like this champion of the oppressed and the idealistic Clark who has a backbone. More than likely Diana appeals to him in that she is beautiful, open, compassionate, can kick ass like he does, independent, and shares his ideals etc.To be honest did you see his mother? The woman is fierce and has martial training has no problems killing if she has to. She compliments her husband. Diana is formidable. Very very much so and I can't see this Superman fazed by any of that.

[misslane38]

I feel like the thread is being lost. It seem like we're talking more about what makes Superman and Wonder Woman compatible whereas the OP, I believe, is asking what specific things might Diana be able to teach Clark to better help him cope with the stresses of his superhero life. Clark, for example, is helping Diana see the value in unplugging with a secret identity. What might ideas or skills might Diana share with Clark?

[Namtab]

The OP has curiously been missing from this thread since creating it.

So, consider the hornet's nest kicked and the shit stirred.

[lariatofhestia]

Let's not do this again in yet another thread. I've never said I don't particularly care for Diana, and you know that. All I've said is that she's not my favorite character. She's not my #1. That doesn't mean she's not in my Top 10. Let's discuss my ideas instead of trying to enforce some sort of purity test.



You know for a fact that Lexrules has purchased all of Azzarello's Wonder Woman run? I've not inferred I only care for women. How can I infer something from myself. Do you mean imply? I didn't imply that I alone cared about women nor did I claim I knew about anyone in particular here. I simply criticized Lexrules for making sexist comments. Unless you think this type of statement from him is perfectly respectful and reasonable: "It's like real life you walk around like that your going to get remarks and jokes thrown your way. Either change how you look or deal with it because it's what you chose." A woman who is beautiful deserves to be harassed by men? That's an okay view to have, from your perspective? Think about that. In fact, take that a step further and change harassed to raped, and then you'll understand why such victim blaming is totally inappropriate and should not be expressed or endorsed anywhere by anyone.

Now this is the last time I'll respond to you here. Any additional responses I'll do via PM because this is a thread about Diana's contribution to her new relationship with Superman. It's not about me and it's not about Lexrules. If you want to derail the thread with additional off-topic discussion, that's on you.

You need some serious help. How you can pervert what people say and manipulate something into something so ugly ... PM you? I'll be happy like Lex if you put me on your ignore list.

[Drokki]

What is she bringing?
NOTHING

Love, companionship, partnership. Etc etc. He already had all that with Lois

All this is bringing is more publicity for WW, but just as supes girlfriend, while Superman hasn't been taking benefit from this stunt at all, the sales of the superman books are practically the same they were before.


I can't wait for trainwreck to be over.

[misslane38]

You need some serious help. How you can pervert what people say and manipulate something into something so ugly ... PM you? I'll be happy like Lex if you put me on your ignore list.

So not only can you not follow basic instructions, like PM me to discuss this further so as to not derail the thread, but you also are unfamiliar with victim blaming. Do yourself a favor and put me on ignore, PM me if you have anything further to say, and educate yourself about victim blaming with regards to street harassment, which was what Lexrules was describing (resources here). Lexrules literally said that any woman who walks down the street and attracts attention because of her looks deserves to be harassed. That is what he said. That is what you are defending. Think about that.

[Cypher-Z]

What is she bringing?
NOTHING

Love, companionship, partnership. Etc etc. He already had all that with Lois

All this is bringing is more publicity for WW, but just as supes girlfriend, while Superman hasn't been taking benefit from this stunt at all, the sales of the superman books are practically the same they were before.


I can't wait for trainwreck to be over.

Co-signed, baby. She might offer some super sex. Since no other woman would be able to take it.

I also lol'd at Lexrules' first reply.

Dude's hilarious.