Does Hope (& the rest of MU including Wolvie and 'Ro) secretly h8 Old Man Charlie?

[jarrod]

Claremont has, Morrison hasn't. Brevoort said it was a copy and all that stuff still happened. It was 1/4 Jeans soul that died.

Morrison has, in fact he's the one who reversed the Byrne retcon and is the source of "Jean is Phoenix, Phoenix is Jean".

Did Brevoort actually say that? All my googling only leads me to Shades of Grey forum posts, and I don't trust anything filtered through that. :/

At any rate, AVX is the last word we have and even there Scott and Logan were acknowledging it was Jean who died on the Moon. I can't seem to recall Bru/Frapt ever implying otherwise either, when did that happen?

What if Vulcan was the Phoenix. The WHR is the nexus of all realities. All the Phoenix Corps were murdered.

Oh, so it never happened since that wasn't QQ 616. Good to know. :)

I'll have to read Morrisons X-Men again, I remember there being a genetic component but I also remember him saying it was a separate entity. I'll have another read in the next few months once I reach that point. Only finishing off Inferno at the moment.

It's both. Subhank isolated the Phoenix genome from Jean and discovered it was a mutation itself. The force is bigger obviously, but the mutation can link avatars to it. He then injected himself with the gene to manifest.

Not the same thing as being actually dead and moved on though.

But also not the same as pure psionics. We've never seen even top tier telepaths like Xavier, Emma or Farouk take one's life force at will.

[ExodusCloak]

Morrison has, in fact he's the one who reversed the Byrne retcon and is the source of "Jean is Phoenix, Phoenix is Jean".

Did Brevoort actually say that? All my googling only leads me to Shades of Grey forum posts, and I don't trust anything filtered through that. :/

At any rate, AVX is the last word we have and even there Scott and Logan were acknowledging it was Jean who died on the Moon. I can't seem to recall Bru/Frapt ever implying otherwise either, when did that happen?

Yep somewhere on his forumspring during AvX. He was addressing the complaint of the opening issue where the Avengers got the Phoenix story wrong in AvX 1. Someone asked him how come they didn't mention Planet X and Xorn etc..It was Jean it was a 1/4 of her soul. But it also wasn't Jean cause her soul was buried under water. They were streamlining it for new readers they never went out of their way to explain eveything in detail but according to Brevoort all those stories still happened.

Emma Frost in Dark Reign the Cabal. "The Phoenix was Jean, Jean was not the Phoenix there is a difference."

Oh, so it never happened since that wasn't QQ 616. Good to know. :)

The WHR is the nexus of all realities. You die in there and you're dead across the Marvel Multiverse.

But also not the same as pure psionics. We've never seen even top tier telepaths like Xavier, Emma or Farouk take one's life force at will.

No different to pure psionics. And Exodus has he stole life force hence the reason why they called him a vampire. Selene did the same except she stole actual souls.

BTW In Psi-War the narrator equates Psi-energy to life force and all the lights on the astral plane are specs of life or something of that sort.

[jarrod]

Yep somewhere on his forumspring during AvX. He was addressing the complaint of the opening issue where the Avengers got the Phoenix story wrong in AvX 1. Someone asked him how come they didn't mention Planet X and Xorn etc..It was Jean it was a 1/4 of her soul. But it also wasn't Jean cause her soul was buried under water. They were streamlining it for new readers they never went out of their way to explain eveything in detail but according to Brevoort all those stories still happened.

Emma Frost in Dark Reign the Cabal. "The Phoenix was Jean, Jean was not the Phoenix there is a difference."

Well, going by the canon Logan/Scott and Emma seem to have differing opinions here. I wonder which is the more ignorant party then?

And of course those stories still happened, what changes is the deeper context. From it being Jean (Claremont) to not (Byrne/Simonson) to Jean again (Morrison) to whatever we've got now.

The WHR is the nexus of all realities. You die in there and you're dead across the Marvel Multiverse.

I'm not sure that's how it works. The WHR is also the threshold to the afterlife and vice versa. That's why the Phoenix wait there. Chances are if you're stuck there, you're already dead (as Quentin was, as Jean is).

Besides, not every What If is representative if a real alternate reality. Was it given a designation? Rachel appeared in it as well iirc, and given she has no true alternates I'm leaning towards it not being in canon anyway.

No different to pure psionics. And Exodus has he stole life force hence the reason why they called him a vampire, Selene did the same except she stole actual souls.

You just highlighted the difference: souls. That's what makes this different from pure psionics.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but Exodus only stole lifeforce (ie: killed), right? Or did he steal (ie: kill) and also return (ie: resurrect) lifeforces like Rachel was able to?

[ExodusCloak]

[I'm not sure that's how it works. The WHR is also the threshold to the afterlife and vice versa. That's why the Phoenix wait there. Chances are if you're stuck there, you're already dead (as Quentin was, as Jean is).

Besides, not every What If is representative if a real alternate reality. Was it given a designation? Rachel appeared in it as well iirc, and given she has no true alternates I'm leaning towards it not being in canon anyway.

All Marvel realties exist in the Marvel Universe though. Even What If and dreams. What was the explanation for the AU ManRachel that appeared in House of M? Claremont wrote that too.

You just highlighted the difference: souls. That's what makes this different from pure psionics.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but Exodus only stole lifeforce (ie: killed), right? Or did he steal (ie: kill) and also return (ie: resurrect) lifeforces like Rachel was able to?

It was implied that Exodus brought back some of the Acolytes (Cortez and a few others) to life but I don't think it was shown on panel. He was a psi-vampire when he faced off against Sersi and X-Man.

But as we saw in Classic X-Men, the one thing the Phoenix could not do was duplicate Jean Greys soul. It could duplicate everything but that, it could only borrow a chunk of it. Captain America even gave a speech of how great the human soul when she was rescued. I think the Watcher did the same.

Also, all those D'Bari souls. Hela told Rachel that she took them.

Anyway that's getting off topic. It wasn't a real death though. Again, similar to the situation in Phoenix Rising when they used their life forces to fix the M'Kraan Crystal.

[Regino]

I can't beleive that Hope is still included in any stories. No one has shown the slightest bit of interest in her. She's an amalgam of a number of characters that are much better than her. She's useless, boring, and contrived. She said fade into obscurity like X-man did for years.

[PwrdOff]

I can't beleive that Hope is still included in any stories. No one has shown the slightest bit of interest in her. She's an amalgam of a number of characters that are much better than her. She's useless, boring, and contrived. She said fade into obscurity like X-man did for years.

But Hope is the ONE TRUE PHOENIX, even if her tenure did only last about all of five seconds. At least she's still got a promising career in the WNBA.

[Atomiq]

Haters need some new fodder, it's getting sad. Here's some scans from Hope's wildly successful new comic.

[Filip]

I missed that Hope. Welcome back!

[Drax1981]

Hate is a strong word but no one is as moved by Charles' death nearly as much as they recognize that they have a club with which to beat Scott with.

[jarrod]

All Marvel realties exist in the Marvel Universe though. Even What If and dreams. What was the explanation for the AU ManRachel that appeared in House of M? Claremont wrote that too.

Not every What If is actually an alternate reality, although that used to be the remit. Beyond that, there's nothing linking the Quire seen in HCT to any one shown in this story.

And that was ManJean. :)

It was implied that Exodus brought back some of the Acolytes (Cortez and a few others) to life but I don't think it was shown on panel. He was a psi-vampire when he faced off against Sersi and X-Man.

Selene also a psi-vampire. So what you're telling me is that Exodus doesn't take life force via telepathy but because he's a psychic vampire? Then why bring him up at all if he isn't doing what Rachel did?

But as we saw in Classic X-Men, the one thing the Phoenix could not do was duplicate Jean Greys soul. It could duplicate everything but that, it could only borrow a chunk of it. Captain America even gave a speech of how great the human soul when she was rescued. I think the Watcher did the same.

Are you talking about the Claremont penned vingettes? That didn't at all show the Phoenix taking a portion of Jean's soul, that showed it was actually Jean herself rising from Jamiaca Bay after becoming one with the Phoenix. Which is the interpretation Morisson and AVX also took.

Also, all those D'Bari souls. Hela told Rachel that she took them.

Hela's wording was vague, only that Rachel's mother had brought her many souls. Given what we know of Claremont's planned origins for Rachel that could have meant Jean or the Phoenix itself (or both). Again there's the read Rachel may be something a bit different from the Phoenix.

Anyway that's getting off topic. It wasn't a real death though. Again, similar to the situation in Phoenix Rising when they used their life forces to fix the M'Kraan Crystal.

Well, I think it depends on defining "real death". Separating the spirit from the body would qualify for some, and that's basically what Jean, Rachel snd Roma all did with the X-Men.

[Phoenetik]

I really love this thread and discussion.

It feels like a catholic council:

"The Phoenix was Jean, Jean was not the Phoenix there is a difference."

vs.

"Jean is Phoenix, Phoenix is Jean".

maybe we will never know??? But was Jesus ���h Jean Grey the true God or only god alike?
Was her Phoenix power genetic or an external cosmic force from outer space? I think nobody knows that not even the characters themselves or the X-Men writers have a final answer to this question.

Maybe the Phoenix Force was always only Jean Grey losing her human nature completely and becoming a cosmic force herself??? I think Morrison was pointing out that Jean is losing more and more her own humanity and is becoming something else.

The whole cocoon-in-the-river-debate is so unnecessary. Morrison explained already that this was Jean Grey reborn after she died on the moon. But one aspect of her Phoenix power remained alive and inspirited her clone Madelyn Pryor. Jean rejected this piece of herself because she couldn't take the guilt.


Everything you have to know about JEAN GREY SUMMERS on one page:

[celestialbodies]

I came across something quite interesting about this scan I knew I recognized it thought I'd let you have a gander:





Here we have Logan calling Scott on his BS, explaining to him why the psychic rapport was no longer active(although it hadn't been since EOD), and telling him that it really was Jean. This one page takes your ENTIRE theory and squashes it LOGAN states "he isn't going to pretend this is Jean's corpse walking around". Doesn't get anymore definitive than that Scott who at this point who hadn't even seen Jean, or Logan who had her scent and had conversed with her.