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  1. #76
    Senior Member Superdog's Avatar
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    Yeah, it's not about realism so much as it is about keeping everything plausible within the confines of the story you're telling. Making sure everything is explained to the audience sufficiently and that actions have consequences and so on. Realism isn't the right word at all actually.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    Clark has almost always had someone to train him. Sometimes its a matter of learning on the job. Of course, it depends on which continuity you follow. But even in the original films, I believe part of Jor-El's training included at least some combat skills. I'm going from memory and could be wrong though. I believe it was mentioned in a novel that tied into the films. Possibly one of Maggins? Again, memory here is fuzzy. But regardless, does anyone really want a Superman who doesnt know how to throw a punch? Or, more to the point, a Superman who is totally reliant on his powers? I have always maintained that Clark, even powerless, would still be at the top of the heroic food chain because his powers are not what makes him the world's greatest hero; its everything else about him.

    Using Returns as an example, since it we mentioned it earlier. For me, one of the worst moments in the entire film is when Clark gets his ass beat by three nameless thugs. Even outnumbered and outgunned, crippled by K radiation, Clark should at least be able to put up a fight and not just flop around like an invalid. Im fine if he loses a fight. But for the love of god man, at least put in a respectable effort.

    I do agree that Superman is about saving lives moreso than bringing criminals to justice. He'll go for saving lives every single time because revenge isnt his thing. But I also believe that Superman should still be able to hold his own in a fight. Especially if he has any experience at all in the cape, has any peers around (shared universe) has fought any real villains, or if his powers developed gradually when he was younger. Rural country kids fight all the time. I know, I was one of them.
    What Superman learned in the Donner film was not how to fight with his powers. He acquired all the great knowledge that Krypton had and the knowledge of the many planets it had known. That's not the same thing as combat. It's more like acquiring the knowledge of Heaven from the prophets. Billy Batson gets the same thing when he becomes Capt. Marvel.

    Outside of that, and his powers, everything that's great abouut Superman came from Earth, specifically his parents.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    I could see Christina as Circe but that's just me.
    They should get that actress from CSI: New York to play her instead. I can see her playing that Greek witch.

  4. #79
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    I'd rather leave Circe for later, actually.

    Im not one of those people who thinks in terms of a trilogy right off the bat. I believe you tell the best story you absolutely can, nothing held back at all, and if things go well, you consider a sequel afterwards.

    But I think there are better foes than Circe to use, especially for an opening movie.

    I'd like to see Ares. I think he sets up a nice dynamic and using him allows the film to explore some of those concepts Diana is supposed to embody.

    Cheetah could be fun, but I dont know. Her connections to the larger WW mythos have always felt strenuous at best. Modern takes on her always include other pantheons and I dont think a Wonder Woman film needs to go there. Maybe go with Ms. Rich instead of Minerva, or find a way to convincingly mesh Cheetah into the greek mythology the rest of the franchise is built on.

    Giganta could work as a secondary villain, maybe weave a redemption tale through her, but as a main antagonist I dont think Doloris has enough to her. She'd be great fun to see in live action and the character is certainly worth using, but I dont think I'd want to see a whole film with her as the big bad.

    Dr. Psycho would be my personal dream movie villain. I think a lot can be done with him in cinema, and there are themes that he would service really well. But doing Psycho right would demand a fairly dark film; at least as dark as Dark Knight and Ledger's Joker.

    I think I'd like to see the mortal foes, like Giganta and Psycho, used as secondary villains, and use the gods as primary antagonists. Ares of course, and there are a ton of stories out there where other gods have screwed with Diana and the Amazons to pull inspiration from.

    As for actors and actresses.....I have no idea. I have always found Diana and her cast difficult to cast.

  5. #80
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superdog View Post
    Yeah, it's not about realism so much as it is about keeping everything plausible within the confines of the story you're telling. Making sure everything is explained to the audience sufficiently and that actions have consequences and so on. Realism isn't the right word at all actually.
    Very true, but try to explain that to some of these people. Herp. Derp.

  6. #81
    Best In The World Legato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    Very true, but try to explain that to some of these people. Herp. Derp.
    Sadly in todays world you have people that prefer dull and boring
    "It isn't jumping the shark if you never come back down." Chuck

  7. #82
    Best In The World Legato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    I'd rather leave Circe for later, actually.

    Im not one of those people who thinks in terms of a trilogy right off the bat. I believe you tell the best story you absolutely can, nothing held back at all, and if things go well, you consider a sequel afterwards.

    But I think there are better foes than Circe to use, especially for an opening movie.

    I'd like to see Ares. I think he sets up a nice dynamic and using him allows the film to explore some of those concepts Diana is supposed to embody.

    Cheetah could be fun, but I dont know. Her connections to the larger WW mythos have always felt strenuous at best. Modern takes on her always include other pantheons and I dont think a Wonder Woman film needs to go there. Maybe go with Ms. Rich instead of Minerva, or find a way to convincingly mesh Cheetah into the greek mythology the rest of the franchise is built on.

    Giganta could work as a secondary villain, maybe weave a redemption tale through her, but as a main antagonist I dont think Doloris has enough to her. She'd be great fun to see in live action and the character is certainly worth using, but I dont think I'd want to see a whole film with her as the big bad.

    Dr. Psycho would be my personal dream movie villain. I think a lot can be done with him in cinema, and there are themes that he would service really well. But doing Psycho right would demand a fairly dark film; at least as dark as Dark Knight and Ledger's Joker.

    I think I'd like to see the mortal foes, like Giganta and Psycho, used as secondary villains, and use the gods as primary antagonists. Ares of course, and there are a ton of stories out there where other gods have screwed with Diana and the Amazons to pull inspiration from.

    As for actors and actresses.....I have no idea. I have always found Diana and her cast difficult to cast.
    Agreed. You can actually end the Wonder Woman movie on a more open note. No cliffhangers or anything of that sort.

    I always like to see Giganta as a member of a rogue band of Amazons who are not bounded by the laws of the Gods like Wonder Woman and the other Amazons are and she would try to sway Wonder Woman into believing that she doesn't need the Gods either. You can still keep the giantess part of Giganta's character and that her race are actually a race of demi-gods abandoned by the Gods and their mortal parents or something like that.

    Ares would make a nice villain behind the villain type but I wouldn't mind someone new on the villain table as Ares has been a "been there done that" when it comes being the main villain in works centered on Greek Mythology, when it's not Hades.

    Cheetah I just cant see IMO. She doesn't have anything that could make her a threat to Wonder Woman unless you greatly upgraded her.
    "It isn't jumping the shark if you never come back down." Chuck

  8. #83
    Junior Member The Duke's Avatar
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    If Peter Jackson did a Meet the Feebles style Wonder Woman I'd watch it, like twice.
    "Mistah Joker, he dead."

  9. #84
    Best In The World Legato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
    If Peter Jackson did a Meet the Feebles style Wonder Woman I'd watch it, like twice.
    He should go back to making movies like that and Brain Dead.
    "It isn't jumping the shark if you never come back down." Chuck

  10. #85
    Junior Member The Duke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    He should go back to making movies like that and Brain Dead.
    He got too egotistical after every critic lauded Forgotten Silver.

    I imagine how dark and mindmangling the Lord of the Rings/Hobbit movies would have been if Guillermo Del Toro did them.
    "Mistah Joker, he dead."

  11. #86
    Best In The World Legato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
    He got too egotistical after every critic lauded Forgotten Silver.

    I imagine how dark and mindmangling the Lord of the Rings/Hobbit movies would have been if Guillermo Del Toro did them.
    One call it egotistical others call it branching out into different things. You can make a thread about Del Toro if you like
    "It isn't jumping the shark if you never come back down." Chuck

  12. #87
    Junior Member The Duke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    One call it egotistical others call it branching out into different things. You can make a thread about Del Toro if you like
    Well, I didn't want to say that Pan's Labyrinth was too weird for my tastes but if we're doing this. It was.
    "Mistah Joker, he dead."

  13. #88
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legato View Post
    Agreed. You can actually end the Wonder Woman movie on a more open note. No cliffhangers or anything of that sort.

    I always like to see Giganta as a member of a rogue band of Amazons who are not bounded by the laws of the Gods like Wonder Woman and the other Amazons are and she would try to sway Wonder Woman into believing that she doesn't need the Gods either. You can still keep the giantess part of Giganta's character and that her race are actually a race of demi-gods abandoned by the Gods and their mortal parents or something like that.

    Ares would make a nice villain behind the villain type but I wouldn't mind someone new on the villain table as Ares has been a "been there done that" when it comes being the main villain in works centered on Greek Mythology, when it's not Hades.

    Cheetah I just cant see IMO. She doesn't have anything that could make her a threat to Wonder Woman unless you greatly upgraded her.
    Pretty much. Sadly, a lot of Diana's rogues dont have enough definition to just drop into a cinematic effort, most of them would require a larger than usual amount of re-imagining. I think most of them could be worthy of a good film, just not without some serious adjustments.

    As for Del Toro, I wouldnt mind seeing what he would do with a WW project. Pan's Labyrinth was indeed weird as hell, but he does good work in this sort of thing, and with the right script just *might* be the man for the job.

  14. #89
    Best In The World Legato's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascended View Post
    Pretty much. Sadly, a lot of Diana's rogues dont have enough definition to just drop into a cinematic effort, most of them would require a larger than usual amount of re-imagining. I think most of them could be worthy of a good film, just not without some serious adjustments.

    As for Del Toro, I wouldnt mind seeing what he would do with a WW project. Pan's Labyrinth was indeed weird as hell, but he does good work in this sort of thing, and with the right script just *might* be the man for the job.
    Yeah if there's a problem that Wonder Woman in general has is that it doesn't have a interesting rogue's gallery. Circe is one of the few outside of the greek gods that I can name who would make a good movie villain. Also WW would be a good way for the film makers to actually create a new and interesting rogues gallery for her since her rogues gallery is lacking when compared to Batman and Superman's.

    I agree that Del Toro can blend in modern and fantasy also and there haven't been a Del Toro movie where I was bored due to lagging pacing. Which is what I have a problem with Jackson's films.
    "It isn't jumping the shark if you never come back down." Chuck

  15. #90
    Senior Member ascended's Avatar
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    I'd go so far as to say that her entire setting is lacking. The only consistent aspect she has had is change.

    Fans know Steve and Etta, but how many years went by where they werent used at all? I mean, I have been reading Wonder Woman on and off for twenty years, and to my knowledge neither got much panel time until Simone brought Etta back into the fold. She lacks the long lasting, solid supporting cast that Clark and Bruce have. Everyone knows Lois Lane, Metropolis, Gotham, Alfred, Robin, ect. Very few people outside fandom know Diana's.

    No established city. Washington, Boston, Midway (or was it Gateway?) now London. Or maybe that was just a safe house.

    Diana herself is well defined. The rest of her world, not so much.

    Great idea to have a new foe introduced. The thought, sad to say, never even occurred to me.

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